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A Wink and a Nudge: Revenge Beating of a Priest - 10/31/2010 9:08:49 AM   
TheHeretic


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Joined: 3/25/2007
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Status: offline 		Arrest in revenge beating of priest

My wife and I were in the car, when we heard this story on the radio. Our immediate reaction was one of solid support for the attacker. Yet, even when our justice system has clearly failed, we cannot turn a completely blind eye on those who take such actions.

If we use the guy who shot a priest three times, was convicted of a gun law violation and sentenced to 18 months of home detention as our model, then I'd say Mr. Lynch should get 100 hours of community service for trespassing.

In cases like this, with extreme mitigating factors, what do you think is the right response from society? Should we turn a completely blind eye with cases that remain unsolved, hand down a symbolic slap on the wrist, or should we have no tolerance at all for violent acts of revenge?



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RE: A Wink and a Nudge: Revenge Beating of a Priest - 10/31/2010 10:02:57 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

In cases like this, with extreme mitigating factors, what do you think is the right response from society? Should we turn a completely blind eye with cases that remain unsolved, hand down a symbolic slap on the wrist, or should we have no tolerance at all for violent acts of revenge?


Do you want to live under the rule of law or in a society governed citizen vengeance, where the facts in a court of law are irrelevant?

Your question is also problematic logically--it's an either/or dilemma between extremes as the only possibilities, rather than an attempt to find acceptable solutions.

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RE: A Wink and a Nudge: Revenge Beating of a Priest - 10/31/2010 10:34:23 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
even when our justice system has clearly failed


I don't follow.

The article states that the church settled a civil action out of court, but doesn't mention any criminal charges.  I'm not speculating on whether criminal charges were brought and if so, what the outcome was.

That said, the Catholic Church's idea of only taking unmarried men as priests and forcing them to live without women probably ensures that they get more than their share of pedophiles.  It's time that they made sure that they did not allow priests or nuns to be alone with underage children - if nothing else, to make sure that ugly rumors don't form.  I've heard that Billy Graham refuses to be alone with a woman aside from his own wife just to make sure that such rumors will never happen about him.


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RE: A Wink and a Nudge: Revenge Beating of a Priest - 10/31/2010 12:40:46 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		It's a question of extreme situations, Muse, and I offered more than an either/or choice. I think a criminal proceeding is completely in order, with the determination of the jury based on a full understanding of the history.

Steve, I have to wonder if you read the string of testimonials regarding the alleged victim in this case. He has been protected from criminal prosecution by the length of time since his crimes, and by an institution which has not responded appropriately to these events.



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RE: A Wink and a Nudge: Revenge Beating of a Priest - 10/31/2010 3:14:49 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline 		I'd have beaten the Priest to within an inch of his life. Doesn't mean it's right to do it, but there it is.

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RE: A Wink and a Nudge: Revenge Beating of a Priest - 10/31/2010 5:33:01 PM   
DomImus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Do you want to live under the rule of law or in a society governed citizen vengeance, where the facts in a court of law are irrelevant?


There are probably a fair many instances where the rule of law itself prevents all of the facts from being heard in a court of law.

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RE: A Wink and a Nudge: Revenge Beating of a Priest - 10/31/2010 7:20:29 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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Status: offline 		Mob rule it is then.

Enjoy.

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RE: A Wink and a Nudge: Revenge Beating of a Priest - 10/31/2010 7:59:31 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Mob rule it is then.

Enjoy.



For someone who has been known to suggest others are missing the point, Muse, you are doing a fine job of it yourself.

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RE: A Wink and a Nudge: Revenge Beating of a Priest - 10/31/2010 9:19:03 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Call 'em like I see 'em.

Comes down to different base line assumptions I suppose.

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RE: A Wink and a Nudge: Revenge Beating of a Priest - 10/31/2010 9:56:25 PM   
peppermint


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven



That said, the Catholic Church's idea of only taking unmarried men as priests and forcing them to live without women probably ensures that they get more than their share of pedophiles.


Okay, I know this is a popular belief, but there ARE married Roman Catholic priests in good standing with Rome.  They are men who have been priests in the Orthodox church or some similar church where they can marry.  Then if they decide to convert to Roman Catholicism they are welcomed into the Roman Catholic religion as priests in good standing and they remain married with their children.  They say mass.  They hear confessions.  They baptize babies.  They do everything a non married priest can do. 

This is why I find the Roman Catholic Church's stand on marriage rather hypocritical.  Most of their priests can not marry.  However, a small few are acceptable as married priests.  It doesn't make much sense. 

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RE: A Wink and a Nudge: Revenge Beating of a Priest - 10/31/2010 10:13:44 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		As far as I'm concerned, if this priest had been convicted in a criminal court, as a habitual predator, the death penalty should have been on the table, all accompanied by the most elaborate rituals the Catholic Church has for defrocking and excommunication.

Well, it didn't happen that way. Therapy and hugs don't work for everybody, and we get what we had here last May. Do we condone it by not prosecuting, let a jury have the information they need in the interest of justice, or prosecute as any other crime, without the jury being allowed to learn the background?

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RE: A Wink and a Nudge: Revenge Beating of a Priest - 11/12/2010 7:26:30 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Do we condone it by not prosecuting, let a jury have the information they need in the interest of justice, or prosecute as any other crime, without the jury being allowed to learn the background?


He has to be prosecuted. There's no alternative. We live in a putatively civilized society, based upon a framework of laws, and the state has no choice but to follow them.

The judge may  disallow any testimony regarding the background of the case, but a reasonably competent attorney will make sure the jury is fully aware of all the facts. He'll probably be convicted anyway, which is only appropriate. If you choose to break the law, you have to expect and accept the consequences.

But even if the jury is not allowed to consider the mitigating circumstances when deciding whether to convict, the judge is allowed to consider them when deciding on the sentence. Considering that the guy apparently has no criminal record, he could very well get off with a light sentence - maybe even suspended as long as he doesn't beat up any more priests. I'd be surprised if he winds up doing any time. Hopefully he never sees the inside of a jail cell.


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RE: A Wink and a Nudge: Revenge Beating of a Priest - 11/12/2010 8:36:56 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

The article states that the church settled a civil action out of court, but doesn't mention any criminal charges.  I'm not speculating on whether criminal charges were brought and if so, what the outcome was.


The article said that criminal charges were not filed due to the statute of limitations.

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RE: A Wink and a Nudge: Revenge Beating of a Priest - 11/13/2010 4:50:40 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		It says this guy tracked down this priest 30 YEARS after the incident and after receiving a settlement, which i believe these people probably used with gusto but i wonder if any of it was used for counseling.  To me, if it wasn't than this to me isn't about his life and poor him etc, its about a deliberate act not an emotional impulsive one.  Ironically, if any of its left, it will probably go to paying his attorney in this matter.  

But you have to ask yourself, why is this guy more right in his revenge beating then say a gang banger who beats up some other gang banger for i don't know something the guy did to him that was bad like beating him up etc.   Who should be allowed revenge beatings and who shouldn't?    This guy is lucky though, if he is as clean as he appears he may get off on the charges.  What bothers me is it was 30 years after the attacks and over 10 years since he has gotten the settlement.  As he was never convicted and the settlement probably states that this was not an admission of guilt even so it was settled by the church not the priest, the history is all speculation.  The other concept that will be taken into consideration is the state of the little brother, since his little brother was part of the reason for the revenge.  The prosecution probably will do a compare contrast like well why didn't your little brother go with you (he is what 42 years old) to revenge himself, etc etc etc.  That could very well harm him.  Especially if the little brother has moved on or got counseling and this guy didn't etc.  He also said "Many times I thought of driving down to LA and confronting Father Jerry"  So why didn't he do it in the last 20 years, why now? 

The priest was removed and placed in a retirement home in 2001, so 10 years this guy waited to take his revenge? 
On some level i guess its easier to beat up a 65 year old man than say a 45 year old one or even a 55 year old one.  That's what bothers me about this whole thing.  If this guy did this, why now?  He said he knew where he was all this time.

Again, i am not advocating the priest or anything but looking at this as a whole concept.  However, what really made me blink was this:

quote:

Larry Lindler, a retired Los Angeles police officer, said he last saw his brother more than two decades ago after he walked in on him molesting his 8-year-old daughter during a visit. The two were playing a game called "blankie" in which Lindner asked the little girl to lie over his lap like a blanket and then wiggled around as if trying to get comfortable.   "The last contact I had with him personally was the day after I caught him with my daughter and I told him he best get in his vehicle and leave," he recalled



I agree with what someone else said, i think anyone convicted of raping a child that should be a death penalty case.

angel

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RE: A Wink and a Nudge: Revenge Beating of a Priest - 11/13/2010 9:53:44 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

Catholic Church's idea of only taking unmarried men as priests and forcing them to live without women probably ensures that they get more than their share of pedophiles


Hi DarkSteven

I think you will find there are no more instances of pedophilia in the church than in the general population...at least from what I could find on the net. Maybe it is the betrayal of trust in their position that sensationalizes their crime and makes it seem more prevalent in the church than it realty is.

I do believe the suppression of the sex drive does cause problems in the church but does not make someone a pedophile.

Butch

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RE: A Wink and a Nudge: Revenge Beating of a Priest - 11/13/2010 10:15:41 AM   
Raechard


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From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		Hypocrisy is the worst human quality, it's one of those things none of us can stand and yet we are all guilty of it on occasions.

The priest is guilty of it for abusing rather than protecting as he said he would.

The man in the case is guilty of it for accepting the settlement when he obviously wasn't 100% happy about it.

You Rich are guilty of it if you hold to the view that people have the right to physical retribution but only if you agree with their cause.


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RE: A Wink and a Nudge: Revenge Beating of a Priest - 11/13/2010 3:53:48 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		I'm not making any claims of holiness, Rae. Anyone who knows me well can tell you that, while I'm generally a nice guy, I can also be a mean, vindictive, grudge holding, son of a bitch, and a cold-blooded asshole when circumstances call for it.

Angel brought up the length of time this individual (allegedly) waited. I don't see it that way. I see the years as the amount of time he carried the agonizing burden. Different people need different kinds of therapy, and if this is the therapy it is going to take for him to be whole, I think we have to at least recognize that, even we really can't condone it.

What we have here isn't a right/wrong conflict, it's a wrong/wrong, and a question of how we deal with vigilantism under such extreme circumstances. I think there needs to be a criminal prosecution, and I think the jury needs to know the history. I thought RML wanted to talk about the subject of the evidence to be brought to trial, but maybe not.

Justice under the law is a cornerstone of the social compact. When that fails, I think we need to be at least little bit cool about bringing down the hammer on victims who don't it.

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RE: A Wink and a Nudge: Revenge Beating of a Priest - 11/13/2010 4:22:00 PM   
Raechard


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From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		Rich since there was no proven case of abuse (in this instance) I don't see how such elements can be entered as mitigating circumstances because they are unfounded. You'd almost be putting the victim on trial rather than the accused.

Through reputation we know he is probably guilty of such crimes but since there was no legal proof it actually occurred you'd have to conclude it didn't. If not any vigilante can claim false mitigating circumstances when they decide to take the law into their own hands over what others have been said to do in the past. They could easily claim they have firsthand experience and therefore a psychological disturbance that lead to their crime.

< Message edited by Raechard -- 11/13/2010 4:23:04 PM >

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RE: A Wink and a Nudge: Revenge Beating of a Priest - 11/13/2010 4:51:24 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

That said, the Catholic Church's idea of only taking unmarried men as priests and forcing them to live without women probably ensures that they get more than their share of pedophiles.


I have heard that theory, but I am not sure if I buy it. I think it is more likely that the pedophiles pick that job because they know it will put them into position to take advantage of the kids.


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RE: A Wink and a Nudge: Revenge Beating of a Priest - 11/13/2010 7:22:35 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Or they figure that a life of service to God will help them overcome their desires, and it just doesn't work out that way. Boi.

Rae, the facts of what went on among these priests is well established, as is the behavior of the church in response to it. I'm inclined to give a great deal of weight to the allegations against the alleged victim of this enhanced punch in the nose.

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