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Revisiting The Easy Answer - 11/6/2010 8:49:53 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Rather than pull up an old thread, I'm going to start a new thread on a past topic.  I wrote a thread on this about eighteen months ago, but I thought it might be interesting to discuss it again.  The original thread is here: http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1711256&key=easy%2Canswer


What prompted this topic is pretty much the same thing as what led to it the last time.  The "go to a pro" answer seems to be the quick and easy one.  I even agree with it on some points.  Yes, it's a guarantee if a person finds a pro that will accept them, they pay the fee, and get to experience a session.  It may be the only option for some folks.  It may be the best idea for someone who is completely fetish driven, has a fetish that it is hard to find compatible people, or the person has a situation (such as being married and the wife doesn't know) that many lifestyle Dommes aren't willing to be involved with.

However, the standard answer of "go to a pro" isn't just used in these situations.  It gets used a heck of a lot more often.  On occasion, it's from folks who used this method themselves.  Either they are/were a pro or they are/were a client.  It's their personal experience, so it's their natural response.  Fair enough.

Yet, I have to wonder if we give the "go to a pro" response more often than it's really warranted.  We don't pass off the easy answer to anyone but male subs.  If the writer of a post is a female, we never make that suggestion.  We don't tell a female sub who is just learning about the lifestyle and wants to try things that is one of the options.  Is that so much because of available opportunity, or is it because of something else?

Sometimes, I think it's because we're a little jaded.  That's easy to do around this place.  We do get a lot of folks who think that the people here are their drive through fetish delivery service and it can be easy to lump everyone in the same category.  Do you think this has an impact on the frequency that we are so quick to suggest that male bottoms/submissives go to a pro?


< Message edited by LadyPact -- 11/6/2010 8:50:51 AM >

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RE: Revisiting The Easy Answer - 11/6/2010 9:36:45 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		I rarely recommend the pro route, and I was one! It's not that a good pro can't provide a good experience, but is it the right one?

If we're talking about an entirely fetish driven person, a person who does not care about forming a personal relationship, then hey, maxfisch.com is the way to go.

You and I are of the social type, LP, and we wave that "get out in the community" flag. At least the "leave the house" flag! What response do we get, though? No one nearby, I'm shy, wifey can't know, lallalalalala. It takes work to get out and make friends!! Who wants that?

Time or money? When faced with a long string of men who really don't want to make that time commitment, it's a snappy default to send them to the yellow pages.

Why don't we tell women that? Because women don't generally act as if making friends is a chore. And, because men don't look askance at a woman offering free bllowjobs. ;)

Yesterday on my seeking list a guy was looking for someone to love him, be loyal, and do cbt. His response to our "tell us about yourself" was to make sexual advances via PM. WTF?? I wish I could say he was an atypical case!





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RE: Revisiting The Easy Answer - 11/6/2010 9:51:51 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline 		Hi Lady P

In answer to your question about 'not' suggesting a pro to a fem sub, I think its all to do with availability. We know that single fem subs have a mountain of emails to browse through. New fem subs have a lot of choice because there are plenty of available single Doms waiting in the wings.
As far as I can recall, I have never suggested a male sub goes to a pro Domme, at least not on here. I did suggest it to a regular munch member when he was having no luck but I did that because I could see he was becoming jaded. He acted on my suggestion, went off and had some fun and turned up at the next munch with a big smile on his face.

I think male subs really do pull the short straw, not only on here but out their in the bigger scene world.
I'm very selective about what I read on the Mistress forums because too many times I have seen Dommes behaving badly over something that could be a very good post and all because it just happened to of been started by a male sub.
Sometimes it just feels like a stream of bitchy sub hating, venomous women ganging up on one guy that dares to ask a question.
This site seems very D/s M/s orientated with little room for S&m. I tend to use other sites for the S&m stuff and this site for the D/s stuff. I have noticed when sub guy on here asks about an S&m activity, they tend to get either re-directed to a pro-Domme or accused of looking for wank fodder.
On another site I use, that exact question would of been answered very differently and its less likely a pro Domme would of been suggested.
I think there's another reason. Its called complacency! There are an abundance of male subs and so why not piss a few off?!?

some of the Domme women here remind me of a child walking through an orchard and taking a bite out of every apple.



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RE: Revisiting The Easy Answer - 11/6/2010 9:54:34 AM   
LadyNTrainer


Posts: 1584
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline 		I am far more likely to suggest improving social skills and hitting a Munch if I think this will be even vaguely helpful to the individual, and I am a pro. 

I suggest going to a pro when it is clear to me that no matter how many single lifestyle femdoms this guy meets, he's going to be shit out of luck.  An extreme example would be somebody who posts saying he's married with kids, needs extreme discretion, can meet only occasionally on a rotating schedule depending on when he can sneak away from work, and he only wants to be cross dressed and in diapers while watching a woman stomp on gummy worms in her bare feet.  None of that bondage or hitting stuff, this is all he is into.  On top of that, he refers to the femdom he seeks as "something on the side" and uses other language that makes it clear he is objectifying the woman as a means to enjoy his basically solo fantasies.  She might as well be a blow-up doll if she goes through the right motions for him; it's clear he does not want to know her as a person.  She's a thing as far as he's concerned.

What are this guy's chances of making a Munch, let alone ever finding someone who will be willing to meet his needs and not get any kind of interpersonal relationship returns?  Yeah, I thought so.  His sole chance given that he is basically seeking someone to use in order get his fetish rocks off is to find someone in the same situation into the same fetish.  That's really statistically unlikely due to the massive disparity between male and female fetishists (in the clinical sense of the term fetishist, not the catch-all term for kinky folks).  Even if he does, this lady has a much larger pool of candidates to pick from than he does.  So he's screwed, and I don't mean up the ass with a strap-on in a fun way. 

Obviously that would be an extreme example illustrating all of the common factors that make me go "Dude, you haven't the chance of a spit glob in Hell.  The drive-through McDomme's is down the street and to the left.  Expect you'll be needing it."  But when any of these elements pop up, they do make it considerably more difficult for someone to find a partner in the lifestyle.  If I advise someone to hire a pro, it's generally because I think he has no other realistic options, and continuing to ask non pros to cater to his desires is just going to annoy the lifestylers and get him nowhere.


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RE: Revisiting The Easy Answer - 11/6/2010 9:56:57 AM   
Takeylarose


Posts: 300
Joined: 9/12/2010
From: Alba, TX
Status: offline 		Since I've joined the site there has been a couple times when I recommended someone going to a pro, with various reason.. Generally it's how they come across in their messages- they say they've always been submissive but unsure of their likes and dislikes not sure of  their limits.. If I ask them about going to munches or being active in the forums or some other outlet and they express zero interest in that to me it speaks volumes..  Seems to me they just want someone to play with  or they are just testing the waters. I put forth a lot of effort into my relationships from the very beginning and to "waste time" with someone who just wants to play around and focus only on the fantasy that they have built up in their mind isn't worth it.

To me there are some clear steps that most people want to skip over that would help them greatly in the long run.. Really taking your time to get to know someone before you introduce the play aspect. Don't rush into doing a scene with someone just because you've hit it off great with them. Be really open and honest about what you want, but leave the kink for last. If you have a kink that isn't widely accepted, don't throw it out there on the first/second/third date or even your first few scenes.  Personally I would be more willing to try something out of my "comfort zone"  if it wasn't shoved down my throat from the very beginning, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that..


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RE: Revisiting The Easy Answer - 11/6/2010 10:02:19 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I think it's recommended more for men than women because men are much more likely to have true fetishes. And once you focus on the fetish, and not the other person, your chances of finding a relationship drops to near zero. So if all they want is to fulfill the fetish, the only likely way it can happen is to pay someone to do this service for you.

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RE: Revisiting The Easy Answer - 11/6/2010 3:14:03 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

We do get a lot of folks who think that the people here are their drive through fetish delivery service and it can be easy to lump everyone in the same category.  Do you think this has an impact on the frequency that we are so quick to suggest that male bottoms/submissives go to a pro?


Absolutely it does. Being treated as a "thing" that provides sensation gets old, really fast. It's one of the reasons We simply stopped identifying as a Fem Dom... this is the way Fem Doms in our communities are often treated and We mistakenly (for Us) bought into it. We are jaded enough that, to this day, when We are approached by some men, in a fetish-first way, We simply say no rather than even talking to them. We are simply that turned off.

Note: the assumption is that We're talking about het male bottoms and submissives. Fetish oriented gay male bottoms have little trouble finding fetish oriented gay male tops.

Master Fire


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RE: Revisiting The Easy Answer - 11/6/2010 4:01:24 PM   
hausboy


Posts: 2360
Joined: 9/5/2010
Status: offline 		Thank you LadyPact for resurrecting this thread--and I agree overwhelmingly with the majority of viewpoints posted thus far.  I was never pro--I had the option but I turned it down for a variety of irrelevant reasons--but a large majority of my friends (and play partners) were pro-Dommes.  (a few others were sexworkers, erotic dancers and my roommate was a phone-sex worker. man I miss San Fran!)

They (and I) often classified people into those two categories--paying customers and players.  Players were those members of the community who did workshops, played in the dungeons, worked in the dungeons, were members of leather clubs/wore colors (patched) or were generally out and about members of the leather/BDSM community at large.  None of us felt that one group was more valid than the other--we had very different needs.  Those were very clearly described above--the majority were  married men that needed a fantasy acted out that no one else could do for them--and they needed a "secret" place to do it with someone (anyone) who they could pay to do it exactly the way they wanted it.

I craved the camaraderie and the raw energy that you could feel when you see two (or more) people playing who had a true personal connection.  Many of us were in a tight circle of friends--we all played with one another--we had bonds of friendship that remain strong to this day.  The Mistresses/Masters/Dommes/Doms had a profound love and respect for the bottoms/subs (fill in your descriptor) and that mutual love and respect was palpable.

In contrast, when I was allowed to observe professionals at work (pros were not allowed to bring paying clients to the local dungeons)--there was no difference in the talent/skills of the Domme--but she clearly regarded her customers as such--paying customers--and it just lacked a certain energy to me.  The paying customer got what he wanted--the Domme was renumerated for her services. Don't get me wrong, my friends had their "favorites," but at the end of the day, they were still customers.

That said (damn, I'm long-winded.....sorry....it's what happens when you have an avid writer who is also kinky....)
After my divorce,  the regular discipline that I had become accustomed to, was now gone.  I missed it terribly and needed it badly.  I had much better luck finding gay men willing to indulge me (and they seemed to enjoy themselves too) and when one man told me he charged for "spanking therapy services"  I got in a twist....I got a little overly self-righteous--"never paid for it for more than 17 years...not about to pay for it now!"  But the bigger issue for me:  I need to know that my Domme/Dom is enjoying herself  AND she/he is getting me off too because he/she wants to, not because I'm paying them..  

But it truth be told, if I hadn't met the Dom who currently keeps my ass in line.... I can almost guarantee you, I'd be going to a Pro.

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RE: Revisiting The Easy Answer - 11/7/2010 7:45:52 AM   
seekingOwnertoo


Posts: 1323
Joined: 8/1/2009
Status: offline 		Lady Pact,

I read your post this morning ... so I thought I would share my own experiences.

And while I know there are Women who like to "break" newbies, they are hard for all the aspiring men with submissive fantasies to find. Moreover, there might not even be enough of You ... to accommodate all of the fantasies!

In addition, You might keep in mind, that when a Domme does "break" a vanilla man, She can also lose interest, because a newbie man really still has a "do me" attitude .. or is unwilling to go too far .. or the thrill of the chase is gone, or whatever.

So I hope what I share, is some justification for encouraging men with an interest in the lifestyle ... to see Pro Dommes.

My first real life experience in the life style was getting "turned" by a Dominant Lady.

You see, once upon a time, professionally employed Women tended to view me as a big fish, and I got targeted by a Domme with a professional career. Although truthfully, I always had an interest in the lifestyle, and that interest was just repressed, by the usual suspects in life.

Yet, I had met this Lady in a vanilla setting, and when that broke up, I had no idea what to do, where to go, or how to find another. Especially as this was the Pre-Internet days. (Note: I also admit to: still being a "do-me" guy, unwilling to go too far ... etc, etc.)

So I did start seeing Pro Dommes ... and I did meet a few ...

In general, once I got over the fear and trepidation, they turned into fabulous experiences and enabled me to experience my fantasies ... in real life.

Moreover, I began to relate with several Pro Dommes, and discovered they were real Women, too! Like big surprise

So from my experience, there are a number of reasons to tell a man to see a Pro Domme, including, but not limited to:

1. Get over the fear and trepidation about BDSM, created by societies beliefs and mores.

2. Experience one's fantasies in real life. Because when one experience's a "controlled" aspect of the life style, we learn if we really enjoy it; or if it is a passing whim. And if it is a passing whim, it should help a man be happy in a vanilla relationship, too!

3. Eventually enables one to relate more realistically with Dominant Ladies in real life.

4. Get pointers to gatherings and munches one should attend.

5. The experience eventually becomes hollow, without mental and emotional involvement.

In my own case, I met one Pro Domme, who mentored me and taught me, what it really meant to submit to a Woman ... especially when our "sessions" evolved into 24 or 36 hour affairs ... for just Her one hour rate!

Yes, I highly encourage men to see Pro Dommes.

And the benefit, for You Ladies, is men who are less driven by our own fantasies ... and more interested ... in pleasing You and Yours!

Of course, others will have their own viewpoint and experiences.

But I also believe, there is a definite and positive place in the lifestyle, for ethical Pro Dommes, and the men who love them!



Please Note: I did NOT say avoid munches and gatherings. I just know men well enough ... to know many will not be willing to START there.




< Message edited by seekingOwnertoo -- 11/7/2010 8:32:51 AM >

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RE: Revisiting The Easy Answer - 11/7/2010 9:08:03 AM   
seekingOwnertoo


Posts: 1323
Joined: 8/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

  We do get a lot of folks who think that the people here are their drive through fetish delivery service and it can be easy to lump everyone in the same category.  Do you think this has an impact on the frequency that we are so quick to suggest that male bottoms/submissives go to a pro?



Indeed .... a lot of people here looking for fetish delivery systems! ROFL

A few years ago ... at a prior employer ... I "caught" four or five guys veering (or should I say leering) this site.

They don't know i come here, too! But of course, they tried to cover it up, quickly.

So no ... I do not believe Pro Dommes are suggested too quickly.

This is a free site ... and one does not even need to create a profile, to read Yours!

And BTW ... this is also why I don't post pictures!

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RE: Revisiting The Easy Answer - 11/7/2010 11:53:32 AM   
Steponme73


Posts: 552
Joined: 11/9/2007
Status: offline 		I guess from reading what has been posted there is a need to "go to a Pro". I personally would never do that. I would like to think my connection is with the person, not a fetish. I think I can see how being connected to a particular fetish would drive one to a Pro. However, I think the feeling of pleasing that person is lost. To me that is the connection. If I want to kiss her feet, I want to know that it is something that she wants also and she is not just sitting there chewing gum and reading a magazine and watching the clock.
However, I think the suggestion to go to a Pro comes way to quickly. The submissive needs to find someone to share the experience with and I am not sure you get that with a Pro. Or at least that is my perception.

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RE: Revisiting The Easy Answer - 11/7/2010 2:45:58 PM   
LadyNTrainer


Posts: 1584
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Steponme73
I guess from reading what has been posted there is a need to "go to a Pro". I personally would never do that. I would like to think my connection is with the person, not a fetish.


And that's specifically what will make sure you never need to see a pro, as long as you make some effort to hit your local BDSM events and meet people.  It's the guys who treat women like the drive-thru McDomme's or a fetish delivery system who can't make a personal connection, because they don't want to.  You do, so you're not in the "shit out of luck except with a pro" category.  You'd be surprised at how many male "subs" are, though.

< Message edited by LadyNTrainer -- 11/7/2010 2:46:24 PM >

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RE: Revisiting The Easy Answer - 11/7/2010 7:28:30 PM   
slavekal


Posts: 1486
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		I rarely give that advice.  Going to a pro is great if you want a momentary thrill, but not a relationship/connection.  No offense to the pros, but it's like telling a guy who wants a girlfriend to hire a hooker.  It can be fun, the pro is likely hot with all the right clothes, but it just ain't the same thing.

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RE: Revisiting The Easy Answer - 11/7/2010 8:58:04 PM   
LadyNTrainer


Posts: 1584
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal

I rarely give that advice.  Going to a pro is great if you want a momentary thrill, but not a relationship/connection.  No offense to the pros, but it's like telling a guy who wants a girlfriend to hire a hooker.  It can be fun, the pro is likely hot with all the right clothes, but it just ain't the same thing.


What would you tell a guy who said he wanted a hot piece of pussy but didn't want to talk to her or get to know her as a person? Would you seriously suggest he should try harder to find a girlfriend? 


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RE: Revisiting The Easy Answer - 11/7/2010 9:33:54 PM   
dcsub2


Posts: 3
Joined: 10/12/2008
Status: offline 		It's also wise to remember that professional dominantion is defined as prostitution and illegal in the vast majority of the U.S. Completely apart from what one thinks personally of BDSM for pay, it's pretty risky to do something illegal. (Note: there has been a lot of smoke blown around this question because of a few exceptions in old local court rulings, rulings that don't apply in most of the country and even in the relevant jurisdiction should not be relied on to bail you out if you get in legal trouble over this. See e.g. http://blog.misscalico.com/?p=596. Most of the things professional dommes do pretty clearly are "sexual conduct" and therefore prostitution).

Patronizing pro-dommes also seems kind of unhealthy because it's going to tend to feed the kind of emotional compartmentalization of sexual needs that the women are criticizing above.

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RE: Revisiting The Easy Answer - 11/8/2010 8:35:16 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I appreciate all of the responses so far.  I don't want to make the thread too long by addressing all of the points individually.  Just touch on a few.

Hib is completely correct that I am a "leave the house" enthusiast.  Sincerely, I believe this is a good option.  If there's a reason under the surface that disqualifies this option, I see it as a different subject.  I'll even admit that it isn't as convenient for some people as it is for others.  I don't think that should pull the option off of the table.

While I do understand the point raised by seekingOwnertoo, it's also worth mentioning that we're not in the world of kink from twenty years ago, or even ten years ago.  The situation has evolved.  For those of us in the United States, finding other people interested in kink is literally at our fingertips.  Finding a munch group isn't nearly as difficult as it has been in the past.  (Truthfully, when people show up and say they can't manage this, it's the epitome of laziness.)

The point made by LNT is a valid one.  There are some who have the 'get the kink on and leave' attitude and I have no disagreement that the 'go to a pro' response is appropriate there.  What I'm really interested in looking at here is do we give this response when it's sincerely warranted or is it just the easy one to throw out there?




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RE: Revisiting The Easy Answer - 11/8/2010 9:17:05 AM   
slavekal


Posts: 1486
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		If I knew a guy who wanted no strings sex with no talking afterwards, then I would recommend he hire a pro. That is not what most of these guys are asking for. They don't need to be told to see a pro. I'm pretty sure they are aware of that option.

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RE: Revisiting The Easy Answer - 11/8/2010 9:38:01 AM   
LadyNTrainer


Posts: 1584
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal
If I knew a guy who wanted no strings sex with no talking afterwards, then I would recommend he hire a pro. That is not what most of these guys are asking for. They don't need to be told to see a pro. I'm pretty sure they are aware of that option.


Honestly, I think that *is* what many are asking for.  Not all by any means, but many.  When I hear in someone's post that he wants to make a personal connection, get to know the person he submits to, and that he treats femdoms like human beings when he talks to them, of course I'll suggest he meet people at a Munch.  Unfortunately there are also a lot of posts from guys that make it very clear that a domme is a thing for him to use to get off, not a human being he can get to know and talk to.  He does not want to invite a domme into his real life.  He would never consider just hanging out with her and laughing over nothing in particular, spending time doing vanilla stuff they both love, or being friends with a domme. They're not real people, after all.  They're dommes!  Dommes are different, you can't treat them like human beings or anything.   You certainly can't introduce them to your friends or family.  She has to stay dressed in a latex catsuit in her dungeon and he visits only when he's horny. 

Yeah, this guy needs to see a pro; that's clearly what he wants, only he might not want to pay money for it.  But tough titty, he's not getting any otherwise.  I don't know any dominant women who enjoy catering to men who don't give a shit who they are, what they want or how they feel, at least not outside a fetish context. 


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RE: Revisiting The Easy Answer - 11/8/2010 10:06:49 AM   
LadyNTrainer


Posts: 1584
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcsub2
Patronizing pro-dommes also seems kind of unhealthy because it's going to tend to feed the kind of emotional compartmentalization of sexual needs that the women are criticizing above.


Is it any healthier for the man who is genuinely unable or unwilling to give of himself in an interpersonal relationship to lie, cheat, manipulate, bully or badger women to cater to his kink without any personal returns?


_____________________________

Your dominant Personal Trainer for fitness and body shaping in the lifestyle. Let my fetish be your motivation.

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RE: Revisiting The Easy Answer - 11/8/2010 10:10:50 AM   
dcsub2


Posts: 3
Joined: 10/12/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcsub2
Patronizing pro-dommes also seems kind of unhealthy because it's going to tend to feed the kind of emotional compartmentalization of sexual needs that the women are criticizing above.


Is it any healthier for the man who is genuinely unable or unwilling to give of himself in an interpersonal relationship to lie, cheat, manipulate, bully or badger women to cater to his kink without any personal returns?



LOL. Now that you mention it, that doesn't seem too great either.

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