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ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Not sure about the functioning civilization but the players definitely provide more value to the team. People don't buy season tickets so they have someplace to use the bathroom.

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If the plumber and the star player demand twice as much money or they'll walk, the plumber can be replaced in a day. If enough star players walk, the team loses billions.

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Can this "true worth and value" be expressed in monetary terms? Because we are talking about money here, not abstract "worth as a person" - really I won't argue that everyone is "worth something" as a person, the point where you lose me is where you seem to think they should be financially compensated for having been born.

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Then I misunderstood the point of the question - if you had two choices to be either 1st class citizen or second class citizen, no strings attached, it is mere choice, would you think that 6.6 billion people would choose to be second class citizens?

How can that question make sense?

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Jesus is just an archetypal untruth anyway, so if we're going to use religious lies I'm thinking some kind of Santa would be far more appealing. Jokes aside, I'm interested in the discussion only, not in solving the entire process. I think eventually there will change; but I doubt that will happen because we shared ideas and discourse on CM... though every mind that is awakened is plus for change.

Well we've gotten to the point of "something is wrong but I have no clue what to do about it."

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How much of this 'stupidity' is allowed and or fostered by the system though ( a system that has been in affect for 5600 yrs mind you)? This system has been providing less than premium education to serfs. The nobles and the wealthy get the premium stuff. The internet has made some dents in this but it's still a long way from where it could be. Again in a different system, different results and or consequences.

I have no complaints about my education. My issues aren't class-based. I likely haven't done anything Paris Hilton hasn't.

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Ok, well the spirit of the Declaration has been all but abrogated. The intention of that document and the people who left Noble Rule in Europe to start anew without the Nobles running their lives, was impeccable. Unfortunately as I said the Nobles got a toe hold early in America and since then an even bigger hold. The document is just a shadow now. The Nobles whether visible or not have never surrendered the wealth, money rules and they have it. Throughout history they have adapted to governments. It hasn't mattered what form of government is in place, they have learned to adapt. They couldn't take down America

Look it's been a long time since history class, but are we talking about the same revolution here? The slaveowning society where only landowners were enfranchised?

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Of course they do. Totally equal value. It was never my intention nor implication to say either was any better then the other. This is an assumption made by others. I don't blame them, it's quite human to make judgement either good or bad. Admittedly I could have worded the title better but it seemed rather lengthy to do so and I could have included an explanation in the OP. My bad. Do you know which you are and more importantly why, was my intention, as well as any discussion that evolves from that. In short are you (anyone) aware of your designated place in this system.

Presumably since I disagree with you I'm a "drone"?

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I don't believe that critical thinkers and drones contribute equal value to society.

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I can't make a determination as to whether they are of equal value, mainly because I can't wrap my head around the concept.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

My point was that we are all capable of critical thinking... it depends on the subject, intelligence and experience of the thinker. I could not critically think my way around an engine... but a mechanic can take a sound and give you a diagnosis. As a nurse, i can critically think my way around the questions to ask to determine what it is your body may need. A chef can take ingredients and think up an amazing menu.

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For a chef to call me a drone because i cannot do as they do is belittling and inaccurate. Even a plumber or a gardner can critically think their way around problems they encounter related to their fields.

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You are posting about this in a political forum, so im going on the belief that you are talking about people who blindly follow a party or a political belief. If i were a drone in such cases, I would have bought into the whole 200 million dollar a day theory. A look into many of my posts will show the research and time i take into discussions. You may call that critical thinking, i call it a bs meter.

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I don't believe that critical thinkers and drones contribute equal value to society.

I can't make a determination as to whether they are of equal value,

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If you could find something comparable on 'drones' who follow another's selfish motives, aware or not, I might shut this thread down.

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think the belittling feeling here like elsewhere comes from the reward or payment system. The chef gets more than that line worker even though the line worker's work is as integral to the overall success. The label of 'line worker' is devalued long before the person is even considered. We're kind of set up to be devalued and hence feel belittled by the labels in this system. If the line worker were paid equally to his chef, I doubt there would be any belittled feelings relative to one's job or career label.

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ORIGINAL: Nslavu

Well yes, I suppose they could piss n the parking lot and walk a few blocks for beer and chips while the game is going on. Hell they could even ignore the ticket staff and walk in without paying. That would be another system... sport anarchy.

Untrue, Players are regularly replaced for various reasons. One dead player would take about 10 minutes of mourning, an official Team statement and a simple call to the minors for his replacement. One dead plumber would require training another to ensure there is no overall plumber vacuum, how long I don't know but seriously someone somewhere suffers when there is not enough plumbers around. It's a lot of backup.

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There are a number of offerings on value related systems that favor effort rather than labels or class or particular professions. I could post links but they're easily googled. Money could part of it as long as it has backing as it did before 'debt banking' came into existence. Money is debt now. I'd advise ignoring the obvious 'conspiracy' tripe, but the thrust of how money works now is completely true and worth finding out about.

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It is an 'if' .. a proposed alternative system, albeit rather simplistic, to show that IF you had choice between those two options (ignoring the world you're in and how it works now) which would you choose.

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Awareness is the first step. How mankind affects change involves a plethora of variants, some controlled, some uncontrolled. Knowing what is going on changes what you talk about and your interaction with others. Manifestation is a slow process.

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You made sexy movies and put them online? Or do you mean you have the same amount of opportunities and enjoyment because you're wealthy?

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Ok, well the spirit of the Declaration has been all but abrogated. The intention of that document and the people who left Noble Rule in Europe to start anew without the Nobles running their lives, was impeccable.

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Pretty much any revolution that attempted (by it's citizens) to overthrow Noble Rule in their country, throughout our history. Some of them had the affect of changing one form of government into another form of government. I wouldn't include the american rev. necessarily; but that too can be construed as an attempt to alter government.

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Both are human, simple as. Every mouth requires an ear. Which is more important, the mouth or the ear?

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Maybe it's first unwrapping what you thought you knew that works better? It's not easy to set preconceptions aside, I know. There's implications in this discussion pertinent to D/s as well.... there's a symbiosis where both D and s are of equal worth and value that each depends on for things to run smoothly or in the words attributed to Plato creating 'harmony'. The difference though not exclusively to D/s, is that they choose to engage the apparent inequality, while maintaining equal worth and value in their roles.

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ORIGINAL: DMFParadox

I think nslavu is advocating communism.

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On a separate not, this stood out at me:
If you could find something comparable on 'drones' who follow another's selfish motives, aware or not, I might shut this thread down.
First of all, those smileys are getting to be too fuckin' much. I already can't take you seriously, mr. 'line workers add as much as the head chefs do'. But every one of those circles with eyes is another nail in the goddamned coffin.

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Secondly, hello? Are you aware that you're on a website full of people who want to follow other peoples' selfish motives and are unhappy at the lack of opportunity to do so in a way that takes full advantage of them??

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Will that shut this epic fuckin' thread down, please?
And also, please don't study economics. I don't want your brand of idiocy with a degree behind it. I doubt being confronted with the subtleties of life will change your dumbass point of view; it hasn't so far.

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ORIGINAL: Nslavu

Thanks for letting me control what you read, how you feel and what you post. Your surrender hasn't gone unnoticed.

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Yet you're the one trying to force your ideals, demands and your way of discussing things mr. "I don't want your brand of idiocy." Pot , kettle.

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Perhaps a little self control would be appropriate. Are you aware that you are choosing to read this thread, no one is forcing you to be here, you choose and then you place blame outside your self for what you've chosen to do. When did you surrender your self control. Your nails, your god damned coffin.

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I am aware that there are Americans here as well. Thanks for consistently pointing out the obvious. I don't know what I'd do without you.

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Apparently you don't see that you are being taken advantage of as well. What you may not have noticed is that both are taking advantage of each other in order to get 'their' selfish needs met in a different but symbiotic way.

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Is this a consistent reaction you have when someone presents ideas outside your comfy little boxed in thought pattern

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella


You see why I have trouble with this abstract "equal human worth" concept barging into a conversation about specifics and particulars?

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ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella


You see why I have trouble with this abstract "equal human worth" concept barging into a conversation about specifics and particulars?

Why are you arguing with this idiot? He claims to be a criticial thinker but maintains a totally illogical position that a 2d grader could shoot holes through. Why? In helpless and hopeless defense of an ideology/philosophy that was proven woefully wrong not long after Marx wrote it.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

A chef is brilliant in a kitchen whereas i would make a passable meal, but nothing to the chef's abilities. He/she would probably be a disaster waiting to happen in a delivery room where i excel.

Your example of a line cook feeling belittled because he isnt as good as the chef, or paid as much, does not match. Most line cooks itch to learn from the head chefs. As a nurse, i would ask a million questions of the Drs in an attempt to educate myself more about the patients i was taking care of.

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My point was... we all have talents... we all have experience... we all have knowledge... all of us.. in different areas. You may excel in areas i do no... but i do know i excel in areas you have no knowledge about.

At some point in time, we are all drones. At other times, we are all leaders.

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Your argument has a fallacy... and the fallacy is that there are some among us who will always know more than others in everything.

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Okay. You don't believe that the reason the player makes more is because they are the ones who sell tickets, and you don't believe that the reason the player makes more is because it's harder to find an excellent ballplayer than it is to find a competent plumber.

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So what do you believe is the reason any financially competent organization would pay the easily-replaced player more than the hard-to-replace plumber?

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If I'm paying by the hour am I going to hire the guy who expends a tremendous amount of effort to push a rock up a hill with his own muscles, or the guy who gets it done in 5 minutes with a crane?

It seems that on average, jobs that require less physical effort actually create more wealth for the company than those that require intensive physical labor.

Thousands of people can work in a factory over a period of weeks to create a supercomputer worth $500k...in three days the representative negotiating sales can double that by selling it for $1M.

Makes sense?

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Awareness is the first step. How mankind affects change involves a plethora of variants, some controlled, some uncontrolled. Knowing what is going on changes what you talk about and your interaction with others. Manifestation is a slow process.

Manifestation into what? What's the end game here? Communism?

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Ok, well the spirit of the Declaration has been all but abrogated. The intention of that document and the people who left Noble Rule in Europe to start anew without the Nobles running their lives, was impeccable.
Pretty much any revolution that attempted (by it's citizens) to overthrow Noble Rule in their country, throughout our history. Some of them had the affect of changing one form of government into another form of government. I wouldn't include the american rev. necessarily; but that too can be construed as an attempt to alter government.

I need a thesis statement that is able to reconcile these two quotes. Please.

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Both are human, simple as. Every mouth requires an ear. Which is more important, the mouth or the ear?
More important in the abstract? Or more important when it comes to doling out certain resources (such as wealth)?
Because while I wouldn't say my ears are unimportant, I'm not about to start shoving sandwiches in them.

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Well to extend your D/s analogy, asking "why are some people rewarded with more money when all people are of equal human worth" is sort of like asking "why does the dominant get to make the rules when both of are equal human worth?"

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You see why I have trouble with this abstract "equal human worth" concept barging into a conversation about specifics and particulars?

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

My mother said I must always be intolerant of ignorance but understanding of illiteracy. That some people, unable to go to school, were more educated and more intelligent than college professors.

~Maya Angelou

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ORIGINAL: DMFParadox

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ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella


You see why I have trouble with this abstract "equal human worth" concept barging into a conversation about specifics and particulars?

Why are you arguing with this idiot? He claims to be a criticial thinker but maintains a totally illogical position that a 2d grader could shoot holes through. Why? In helpless and hopeless defense of an ideology/philosophy that was proven woefully wrong not long after Marx wrote it.

I can't answer for her, but for me it's like a motherfucking laser cat toy. And I'm a cat. I know I'll never nail that motherfucker down, but it's fun and good exercise. ^_^

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ORIGINAL: Nslavu

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Ok, then.

1.  What is this "elite" you are talking about?  Can you define it?  Who, specifically belongs to it?  Where did they come from?  Do new members ever arise, or is it only by being born into it that a new member comes into it?  Do members ever renounce their membership, or lose it? What are the specific "markers" that will allow one to determine the membership?

Dude, I'm not prepared nor inclined to provide a complete and total history lesson on Nobility from 3600BC to 2010AD. Research what Kings/Queens, despots and their lineage along with world leaders (mostly money leaders) are still around and you have all these answers in a nutshell. Frankly I don't care who they are so much. That they operate using the Noble Lie and a number of other shrewd (to the unaware) psychologies to maintain and grow their wealth at the expense of more than 6.6 billion serfs is what I find amazing and what I would prefer to discuss.

If you're looking for the 'conspiracy' angle, I'm not going there. I have said a number of times, it's not conspiracy, it's methodology and psychology that is in plain sight if one cares to look closely enough.

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2. Your definition of the "noble lie" seems to have no positives, only negatives, i.e. "controlling" or "misguiding", and only for the purposes of denying others their "true potential" or their "rights".  Are there any positives?

All of this depends on one's perspective doesn't it? ^You tend to see the wording as negative or you wouldn't have asked. I tend to see your original wording using such words as 'harmony' being somewhat euphemistic in covering up what is essentially and more factually a lie of control. I'm sure Nobles see it a positive because it's results mean that roughly 6.6 billion serfs don't complain or say much about how unfairly the wealth is dispersed. In our history there have been uprisings, rebellion, revolts, none of which ever changed a Noble's position on the wealth meter. The Noble have simply changed government labels... Despotism, Monarchy, etc ... to Democracy! Woohoo the new freedom for serfs... still paying taxes that favor the rich, blah blah blah, still fighting their wars for them....

In the big picture and I'm only speaking for myself, there really is no good or bad, no positive or negative, only perceptions of same, that generally rely on perspective and meanings we attach to words. Some of these are preconceived notions resulting from what we've been taught. One can find positives in any negative and vice versa if one looks closely.

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3.  What are "everyman's" rights, anyway?  What, exactly are "rights" in your mind?

That could be a very long list as well. But we'll shorten it for the purpose of discussion. The right to a decent lifestyle and equal treatment.

Dude, I'm not prepared nor inclined to provide a complete and total history lesson on Nobility from 3600BC to 2010AD.

If you're looking for the 'conspiracy' angle, I'm not going there. I have said a number of times, it's not conspiracy, it's methodology and psychology that is in plain sight if one cares to look closely enough.

I tend to see your original wording using such words as 'harmony' being somewhat euphemistic in covering up what is essentially and more factually a lie of control.

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Two things that humans do with economy are contrary to what nature does with economy. They are 'profit' and 'interest'.

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Nature performs and quite well really on sustaining itself.

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Profit and interest are Noble Lies, used so that they can have life better than another person.

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They don't care about sustaining society, much less the environment in which they live; they care about profit. This has created a 'take more than you need society.'

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haha ... no, perhaps compassion, fairness, equality, truth,the way things really are, rather than the way they've been made to look with myths, lies and manipulation.