quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

It doesn't matter if it can or not. Your Harley is the same as any other Harley - put a corner in the way, and it's dead in the water.

Hey, you take your drag bike and I'll even race you to the shop on a moped. First back home with a four-pack wins.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Who are you trying to kid? We were talking, originally, about the sorts of bikes anyone might buy, and about Harleys being assembled in India. Now suddenly, the 400cc Japanese bike you think is so funny has to be compared with heavily modified track bikes and specialist machines?

You need to face facts. Harley makes horrible fucking fashion items with antique engines and a horrible tendency to shake a person's fillings out. They are slow, and heavy, and they don't go around corners. There isn't a single bike in the Harley range with any real performance behind it. Harley Davidson is a big fat joke. The only people bothering with Harleys nowadays are the frail and elderly, whose reflexes are more than a match for anything Harley can throw at them.

Seriously guys, get a life. And if you're a Harley fan, please don't describe yourself as a motorcycle enthusiast. You're not. You're an antique collector.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

I'd be happy to see it in a face-off against a 400cc Japanese bike, if that's what you want to hear.

I found some figures for your Hardly.

0-60 in 4.5 seconds (a bit slow off the mark compared with the superior and much smaller 400cc Japanese bike), quarter mile in 13.11 seconds (quite a bit slower than the funny 400cc Japanese bike at 12.1 seconds), top speed 120mph, which would be respectable if it were a tourer rather than a flat-track 'racer' (the Japanese 400cc can reach just about 130).

I think even the 20 year old collectors item I had would be in with a shot against this particular 'race' bike. You must be very proud.

Now tell me 'it's all about image' - that's all you have left. Still laughing?

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

Flat-track is a red herring in any case. Harleys haven't been competitive in any road racing series for a long, long time. The AMA organisers bent the rules backwards, forwards and sideways to try and make them competitive in AMA Superbikes & Superstocks, but the problem they faced is that any regs that favour a Harley also tends to favour other, better-built and faster Italian V-twins.

Harley engines are basically 40+ year old designs, and even adding water cooling and suchlike (as with the V-rod) doesn't alter that fact.

Any even halfway decent rider on a modern sports bike, on the road, or a tarmac track, will destroy a Harley. They're about image, and weekend warriors getting their kicks. That's fine as far as it goes, and I've no objection to it, but anyone attempting to position Harleys as a credible sports machine instantly becomes a laughing stock, for reasons anyone who's ever ridden a modern Japanese or Italian sportsbike will understand. Even Harley themselves don't try to make that assertion, because they know they'd get laughed out of court. The V-Rod is "the first member of a new family of performance custom motorcycles", where "performance custom" equals "looks like the old shit, goes slightly better than the old shit, still gets its arse kicked every time it comes to a corner". 115 bhp may sound a lot, but when you're riding litrebikes it's a joke - my current one makes 160 bhp at the crank, and more importantly weighs 168 Kg, wet, as opposed to the V-Rod's 304 Kg, wet.

I've ridden just about every road bike going over the last 25 years (including a V-Rod), raced a bit, and regularly do trackdays - Harleys are fine for what they are, as posing machines, and again as I say there's nothing wrong with that, but anyone even trying to pretend they're a credible sports machine is going to end up looking very, and I mean very, silly.

And speaking of silly, how gaylord is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPqkCxV8SkI

"Never in the field of human bullshit ..."

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

Flat-track is a red herring in any case. Harleys haven't been competitive in any road racing series for a long, long time. The AMA organisers bent the rules backwards, forwards and sideways to try and make them competitive in AMA Superbikes & Superstocks, but the problem they faced is that any regs that favour a Harley also tends to favour other, better-built and faster Italian V-twins.

Harley engines are basically 40+ year old designs, and even adding water cooling and suchlike (as with the V-rod) doesn't alter that fact.

Any even halfway decent rider on a modern sports bike, on the road, or a tarmac track, will destroy a Harley. They're about image, and weekend warriors getting their kicks. That's fine as far as it goes, and I've no objection to it, but anyone attempting to position Harleys as a credible sports machine instantly becomes a laughing stock, for reasons anyone who's ever ridden a modern Japanese or Italian sportsbike will understand. Even Harley themselves don't try to make that assertion, because they know they'd get laughed out of court. The V-Rod is "the first member of a new family of performance custom motorcycles", where "performance custom" equals "looks like the old shit, goes slightly better than the old shit, still gets its arse kicked every time it comes to a corner". 115 bhp may sound a lot, but when you're riding litrebikes it's a joke - my current one makes 160 bhp at the crank, and more importantly weighs 168 Kg, wet, as opposed to the V-Rod's 304 Kg, wet.

I've ridden just about every road bike going over the last 25 years (including a V-Rod), raced a bit, and regularly do trackdays - Harleys are fine for what they are, as posing machines, and again as I say there's nothing wrong with that, but anyone even trying to pretend they're a credible sports machine is going to end up looking very, and I mean very, silly.

And speaking of silly, how gaylord is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPqkCxV8SkI

"Never in the field of human bullshit ..."

Speaking of bullshit.

Let me try and understand all this.

Harleys won't corner and somehow their cornering in flat-track racing is a red herring.

Harleys are slow yet somehow have managed to win for of the last six NHRA championships.

You guys keep up the good work, very convincing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


*sigh*

Flat-track is a *tiny*, race-only market. No-one else is putting major money into preparing a competing bike. Yamaha and Kawasaki both dominated the series for years (about 30 years ago, giving rise to such later road racers as Kenny Roberts Snr), before deciding it wasn't worth the expenditure, and pulling out, leaving Harley to their tiny niche market "racing" success.

It's a red herring because, if you remove that series, and look at tarmac, or off-road/MX, Harleys win nothing. Not a sausage.

Bugger all.

It's like saying JAP/JAWA/etc are brilliant bikes because they win speedway - it's a very niche series, with very specifically prepared bikes. Which bear zero resemblance to anything you could ride on the street.

On tarmac, on the road or track, Harleys get eaten alive. Unlike you I've ridden both, and trust me they do. A BSB/WSB spec litrebike will lap Snetterton in about 1m08s. A road based litrebike in about 1m15s, in the right hands (mine, for example). A Japanese 400 manages it in about 1m20s, as Snet is a horsepower track, and the fastest I've ever seen any Harley go round there (a V-Rod ridden by a very skilled racing buddy of mine) was 1m 25s - it weighs way too much to be able to corner effectively. Even Niall MacKenzie (ex GP racer and faster than almost anyone else on planet earth outside the current MotoGP field) only managed a 1m23s on a heavily race prepared XBR, last time out.

As you don't seem to know WTF you're talking about, even so far as which racing series is which, or even the difference between purpose built race bikes and road machines, you could do worse than ride both types of machine on either the road or track, then come back and say sorry.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
But I'll try one more time.  And I'm sure you know, but just in case, Buell is Harley's sportbike subsidiary.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
But I'll try one more time.  And I'm sure you know, but just in case, Buell is Harley's sportbike subsidiary.

Not any more it isn't. Harley are shutting Buell down. Because their bikes weren't competitive in the sportsbike arena. And a Buell was not a Harley. Not according to the FIM, or to Harley themselves. And that "series" was the one I referred to about heavily weighted regs.

I'm not bothering with this any further. You haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about, and a few minutes on google won't help you. I've ridden these things, and you haven't. Go away, learn about road and track riding (should take about 15-20 years to do properly), race in several series, ride dozens of road bikes of various capacities and capabilities, then come back and admit you’re clueless.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
But I'll try one more time.  And I'm sure you know, but just in case, Buell is Harley's sportbike subsidiary.

Not any more it isn't. Harley are shutting Buell down. Because their bikes weren't competitive in the sportsbike arena. And a Buell was not a Harley. Not according to the FIM, or to Harley themselves. And that "series" was the one I referred to about heavily weighted regs.

I'm not bothering with this any further. You haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about, and a few minutes on google won't help you. I've ridden these things, and you haven't. Go away, learn about road and track riding (should take about 15-20 years to do properly), race in several series, ride dozens of road bikes of various capacities and capabilities, then come back and admit you’re clueless.

Well, it's always nice talking to a pompous ass.

It gives me a fresh perspective on life.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

That's better - you just sit there, being wrong, glorying on your wrong-ness, and spout insults. That's perfectly fine.

Just don't pretend to knowledge you don't, and glaringly obviously don't, have, when adults who know what they're talking about are in the room.

It’d be like me trying to tell a brain surgeon about how to do brain surgery. I’d end up looking as silly as you just have. Well ok, not quite as silly as you just have, but close.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

That's better - you just sit there, being wrong, glorying on your wrong-ness, and spout insults. That's perfectly fine.

Just don't pretend to knowledge you don't, and glaringly obviously don't, have, when adults who know what they're talking about are in the room.

It’d be like me trying to tell a brain surgeon about how to do brain surgery. I’d end up looking as silly as you just have. Well ok, not quite as silly as you just have, but close.

Gee Skippy, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure you were the one who started with the insults and then continued to escalate them because you are God's gift to motorcycling.

You know all and have done all, and the rest of of us are mere peons in your presence.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Harley is a poser machine? Perhaps. But its an expensive machine to pose with.

From a female perspective, there is nothing like having a lion between sweet thighs... keep the whining crotch rockets to yourselves, give me something that roars!