RE: What do you think of Aetheists?

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LadyConstanze -> RE: What do you think of Aetheists? (11/19/2010 3:56:10 PM)
Italian (mother is Italian) and German (on account of my parents living there when I was born so I grew up speaking German - made attending schools easier, brief stint at a Swiss boarding school from which I was expelled due to a misunderstanding and a small fire), dad is Swedish by the way, but I never managed more than a few phrases, understand a lot but never really bothered to learn it. As for the mixing it, it is a mixed bag, I went to Trinity (Ireland), studied in Australia for a while, then worked in London, NYC and LA for quite a bit, oddly enough at work I don't mix it, but I got my spell check there set for British English, I used to work for mags in the US and the UK and I could always adjust to the specific spelling but when chatting, it gets kinda mixed up. Oddly enough when I speak I have no regional accent, not in English (and since I am now living in the dreadful NE they assume I am posh, I guess not grunting has benefits) nor in German, in Italian oddly enough most assume I'm Milanese though the family hails from the Tuscany. My written French is horrible but I speak it alright though people can tell that I'm a foreigner (the bloody grammar does me in every time).

Jaybeee -> RE: What do you think of Aetheists? (11/19/2010 4:08:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze Italian (mother is Italian) and German (on account of my parents living there when I was born so I grew up speaking German - made attending schools easier, brief stint at a Swiss boarding school from which I was expelled due to a misunderstanding and a small fire), [:D] Now WHY do I find that so easy to belive???!??!? Quite the little spitfire (then AND now), nicht wahr?? quote: As for the mixing it, it is a mixed bag, I went to Trinity (Ireland), studied in Australia for a while, then worked in London, NYC and LA for quite a bit, oddly enough at work I don't mix it, but I got my spell check there set for British English, I used to work for mags in the US and the UK and I could always adjust to the specific spelling but when chatting, it gets kinda mixed up. Oddly enough when I speak I have no regional accent, not in English (and since I am now living in the dreadful NE they assume I am posh, I guess not grunting has benefits) nor in German, in Italian oddly enough most assume I'm Milanese though the family hails from the Tuscany. My written French is horrible but I speak it alright though people can tell that I'm a foreigner (the bloody grammar does me in every time). En tout cas, ton Anglais est beacoup plus mieux que mon Francais, que je croyais suffisament developpe' jusqu'au point que j'ai lu ton anglais... :)

LadyConstanze -> RE: What do you think of Aetheists? (11/19/2010 4:13:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jaybeee En tout cas, ton Anglais est beacoup plus mieux que mon Francais, que je croyais suffisament developpe' jusqu'au point que j'ai lu ton anglais... :) Well I'm glad that I manage to be sort of understood ;) And as I said, it was an honest accident based on a misunderstanding, the nuns are just as much to blame but unfortunately dad saw fit to tan my hide when I came home in utter disgrace.

hard2handle1 -> RE: What do you think of Aetheists? (11/19/2010 4:14:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jaybeee I pity them; for they unknowingly or knowingly shake their fists in His face, the most unpardonable sin. But as 'He' doesn't actually exists it's not really much of a problem, is it? quote: But I was not the power he eventually had to answer to for his outright refusal, despite taking him painstakingly through Pascal's Wager, despite all my reasoning, and yes, finally, pleading. Had I known the man offline, I'd have happily thrown him against a wall and BEGGED him to reconsider his position. What exactly is it that you think Pascals Wager demonstrates? PW isn't any sort of evidence of god, it is a ludicrous cop out that takes no account of the fact that we cannot pretend to believe and that if we did and god existed then he would know. I don't think he'd be happy about this cynical display of dishonesty, do you? It seems your friend's 'earthy intellect' was more than a match for your 'elitist' one. Perhaps you could give us a display of this elitist intellect and take us through the reasoning you tried on your heathen friend. quote: It's a bitter feeling to know I tried, and a man now burns for my failure. Don't worry about it, Pascal's Wager is nothing compared to the Atheist's Wager. Your 'earthy' friend is either, most likely, no longer in existence anywhere, or is floating on a cloud somewhere being spoon fed Philidelphia cream cheese, basking in God's ineffable love and forgiveness.

hard2handle1 -> RE: What do you think of Aetheists? (11/19/2010 4:19:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze when it comes down to it, nobody can be absolutely sure, atheism is a belief just like theism, my personal stance is that I am agnostic, it is impossible to know if there is a god (or not), so why on earth should I get upset if somebody believes that there is a god or somebody believes there isn't? No one needs to be absolutely sure, the people who make the claim need to provide the evidence, everyone else can just act as if the claim is false unless evidence is provided. Theists have so far been unable to provide any evidence. Their usual tactic is to make unsupported assertions then, when these are shown to be flawed, fall back on the argument that science and logic don't apply to their supernatural claims. If I assert that unicorns exist it is not up to you to prove they don't, it is up to me to prove they don't. If I can't do that then you are free to act as if there is no such thing as unicorns. Atheism is not a belief, that is a ridiculous idea, it is a lack of belief, specifically a lack of belief in gods. Atheists don't, usually, have an active belief that god doesn't exist, they just don't believe in the existence of gods. I don't believe that gods don't exist, I just have no belief that they do. There are two main types of agnostics, those who just don't understand the arguments because they haven't investigated them properly and those who feel that being unable to prove the non existence of gods means that they can't claim to be atheists. Most people who claim to be agnostic are defacto atheists.

Jaybeee -> RE: What do you think of Aetheists? (11/19/2010 4:23:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hard2handle1 quote: ORIGINAL: Jaybeee I pity them; for they unknowingly or knowingly shake their fists in His face, the most unpardonable sin. But as 'He' doesn't actually exists it's not really much of a problem, is it? quote: But I was not the power he eventually had to answer to for his outright refusal, despite taking him painstakingly through Pascal's Wager, despite all my reasoning, and yes, finally, pleading. Had I known the man offline, I'd have happily thrown him against a wall and BEGGED him to reconsider his position. What exactly is it that you think Pascals Wager demonstrates? PW isn't any sort of evidence of god, it is a ludicrous cop out that takes no account of the fact that we cannot pretend to believe and that if we did and god existed then he would know. I don't think he'd be happy about this cynical display of dishonesty, do you? It seems your friend's 'earthy intellect' was more than a match for your 'elitist' one. Perhaps you could give us a display of this elitist intellect and take us through the reasoning you tried on your heathen friend. quote: It's a bitter feeling to know I tried, and a man now burns for my failure. Don't worry about it, Pascal's Wager is nothing compared to the Atheist's Wager. Your 'earthy' friend is either, most likely, no longer in existence anywhere, or is floating on a cloud somewhere being spoon fed Philidelphia cream cheese, basking in God's ineffable love and forgiveness. Honoured though I ought to be that your very first post on CM was addressed precisely to little old me, you should introduce yourself to the community at large first. Perhaps then I'll be inclined to check what understanding you have of the wager.

Jaybeee -> RE: What do you think of Aetheists? (11/19/2010 4:26:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze quote: ORIGINAL: Jaybeee En tout cas, ton Anglais est beacoup plus mieux que mon Francais, que je croyais suffisament developpe' jusqu'au point que j'ai lu ton anglais... :) Well I'm glad that I manage to be sort of understood ;) And as I said, it was an honest accident based on a misunderstanding, the nuns are just as much to blame but unfortunately dad saw fit to tan my hide when I came home in utter disgrace. A very, very personal question, but then it's a BDSM site...did his hitting you inspire you to indulge in our lifestyle?

subrob1967 -> RE: What do you think of Aetheists? (11/19/2010 4:26:58 PM)
I don't;.Anymore than I think about any religion.

LadyConstanze -> RE: What do you think of Aetheists? (11/19/2010 4:31:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hard2handle1 Atheism is not a belief, that is a ridiculous idea, it is a lack of belief, specifically a lack of belief in gods. Atheists don't, usually, have an active belief that god doesn't exist, they just don't believe in the existence of gods. I don't believe that gods don't exist, I just have no belief that they do. There are two main types of agnostics, those who just don't understand the arguments because they haven't investigated them properly and those who feel that being unable to prove the non existence of gods means that they can't claim to be atheists. Most people who claim to be agnostic are defacto atheists. Oh right, so the fact that you believe that there is no god is not a believe? Oh please, you realize how ridiculous that sounds? As for telling me that I am in fact an atheist, thanks very much but I think I don't really need you to tell me what I am, which is in fact agnostic. I don't think there is a god, I find it very unlikely but not impossible. Now you want me to believe in something that you claim is not a belief (a bit paradox isn't it) but you can't offer me sufficient scientific backup, so it is merely a theory, but you still maintain it is not a belief and you don't need to prove it, you realize how ridiculous that sounds? Thanks, I stick with agnostic!

LadyConstanze -> RE: What do you think of Aetheists? (11/19/2010 4:38:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jaybeee A very, very personal question, but then it's a BDSM site...did his hitting you inspire you to indulge in our lifestyle? Not at all, I always had an odd fascination with leather (love the smell of it) and as a child loved to watch pirate movies (boots, whips, swords and corsets) and for ages thought something is wrong with me (you know the "I am a nice person, why do I want to scratch and bite my partner), then a bf (nice British chap btw) suggested that he ties me up, took a few minutes until I suggested that I tie him up and way back when I was really really surprised that he delightedly agreed and jumped up and down and yelled "Strike, gold, gold, I hit gold!"

hard2handle1 -> RE: What do you think of Aetheists? (11/19/2010 4:40:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW While I tend to think of myself more as a "non-theist" than an a-theist (the difference, to me, being between those who just don't believe in deity(ies) and those who actively -deny- the existence of deity(ies)), An atheist is just someone 'who just doesn't believe in deities'. It says no more than that. Within that group there is a whole range of attitudes and levels of intensity and there is no need to invent another term. Stand up and be counted, if you don't swallow all the fanciful and unsupportable pap that the theists spout then just say so, no one's going to strike you down for it.

LadyConstanze -> RE: What do you think of Aetheists? (11/19/2010 4:50:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hard2handle1 Stand up and be counted, if you don't swallow all the fanciful and unsupportable pap that the theists spout then just say so, no one's going to strike you down for it. I don't know if anybody has mentioned this before to you, but you do sound like a pompous cock. It must be terribly important for you what others believe or not, if somebody feels good in believing in a deity, where's the problem? I'm not a fan of religion but it gives some people a lot of comfort, for example if they are dealing with the loss of a loved one, and being a theist or atheist doesn't make anybody a good or a bad person, it also doesn't make you smarter or more stupid, tons of scientists on both sides of the fence.

Jaybeee -> RE: What do you think of Aetheists? (11/19/2010 4:55:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze quote: ORIGINAL: Jaybeee A very, very personal question, but then it's a BDSM site...did his hitting you inspire you to indulge in our lifestyle? Not at all, I always had an odd fascination with leather (love the smell of it) and as a child loved to watch pirate movies (boots, whips, swords and corsets) and for ages thought something is wrong with me (you know the "I am a nice person, why do I want to scratch and bite my partner), then a bf (nice British chap btw) suggested that he ties me up, took a few minutes until I suggested that I tie him up and way back when I was really really surprised that he delightedly agreed and jumped up and down and yelled "Strike, gold, gold, I hit gold!" :) Glad one one of my compatriots was responsible for your eventual conversion. When you write "Odd fascination", you remind me of that 10yr girl on 'Annie Hall' who admits, "I'm into leather", and by the look of her, you get the feeling she is EXACTLY the young girl who grew up into the leather-jacketed woman who rides Harleys... With me it was domination, the kind that my forefathers encouraged culturally, but I knew had a meaning they themselves had forgotten over the generations...

GotSteel -> RE: What do you think of Aetheists? (11/19/2010 4:55:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jaybeee I pity them; for they unknowingly or knowingly shake their fists in His face, the most unpardonable sin. I am particularly troubled by an online argument I had with one, he was a decade older and felt a certain superiority to me, as a man, and I must admit he wasn't entirely unjustified in that assessment. His was a salty, earthy intellect, unlike my somewhat elitist one. But I was not the power he eventually had to answer to for his outright refusal, despite taking him painstakingly through Pascal's Wager, despite all my reasoning, and yes, finally, pleading. Had I known the man offline, I'd have happily thrown him against a wall and BEGGED him to reconsider his position. It's a bitter feeling to know I tried, and a man now burns for my failure. You're not going to have any more success using pascal's wager to convert non-theists to christianity then I'd have convincing you to worship Zeus for fear of being tortured by Hades. While I'm sure it's compelling to christians who have started to question, it's useless against non-theists. You might as well threaten us with unicorns. From a non-theist's perspective pascal's wager is an extremely crappy argument, the flaws in it are both rather obvious and well known. The only apologetics argument I'm aware of that's worse is the banana argument. You should look into quantum consciousness or at least the kalam cosmological argument.

Jaybeee -> RE: What do you think of Aetheists? (11/19/2010 5:03:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: Jaybeee I pity them; for they unknowingly or knowingly shake their fists in His face, the most unpardonable sin. I am particularly troubled by an online argument I had with one, he was a decade older and felt a certain superiority to me, as a man, and I must admit he wasn't entirely unjustified in that assessment. His was a salty, earthy intellect, unlike my somewhat elitist one. But I was not the power he eventually had to answer to for his outright refusal, despite taking him painstakingly through Pascal's Wager, despite all my reasoning, and yes, finally, pleading. Had I known the man offline, I'd have happily thrown him against a wall and BEGGED him to reconsider his position. It's a bitter feeling to know I tried, and a man now burns for my failure. You're not going to have any more success using pascal's wager to convert non-theists to christianity then I'd have convincing you to worship Zeus for fear of being tortured by Hades. While I'm sure it's compelling to christians who have started to question, it's useless against non-theists. You might as well threaten us with unicorns. From a non-theist's perspective pascal's wager is an extremely crappy argument, the flaws in it are both rather obvious and well known. The only apologetics argument I'm aware of that's worse is the banana argument. You should look into quantum consciousness or at least the kalam cosmological argument. Not they're not, and in fact it's not an argument. It's an ultimatum. A little enlightenment of your stance, please And would anyone who wishes to discuss this PLEASE give proof of understanding of the wager?

hard2handle1 -> RE: What do you think of Aetheists? (11/19/2010 5:05:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze quote: ORIGINAL: hard2handle1 Atheism is not a belief, that is a ridiculous idea, it is a lack of belief, specifically a lack of belief in gods. Atheists don't, usually, have an active belief that god doesn't exist, they just don't believe in the existence of gods. I don't believe that gods don't exist, I just have no belief that they do. There are two main types of agnostics, those who just don't understand the arguments because they haven't investigated them properly and those who feel that being unable to prove the non existence of gods means that they can't claim to be atheists. Most people who claim to be agnostic are defacto atheists. Oh right, so the fact that you believe that there is no god is not a believe? Oh please, you realize how ridiculous that sounds? I thought I'd made it simple, I'm not sure I can dumb it down any more but I'll give it a go. I am an atheist. I do not believe that gods don't exist. I just have no reason to believe that they do. Unicorns: I believe they don't exist. I don't believe they exist. Can you see the difference between those two statements? quote: As for telling me that I am in fact an atheist, thanks very much but I think I don't really need you to tell me what I am, which is in fact agnostic. I didn't tell you that you are an atheist, I presented two main types of agnostics, based on my personal experience. You have made it quite plain which group you belong to. quote: I don't think there is a god, I find it very unlikely but not impossible. I don't think unicorns exist, I find it very unlikely but not impossible. However, it is so highly improbable that I can act as if unicorns don't exist. I won't set unicorn traps, or plan to use unicorn manure on my roses, or check for unicorns when I cross the road. I cannot rule out the possibilty of the existence of unicorns because I have not looked everywhere, should that mean that I have to entertain the idea that they do exist? I am aunicornist, I am not agnostic about the existence of unicorns. How about you? quote: Now you want me to believe in something that you claim is not a belief (a bit paradox isn't it) but you can't offer me sufficient scientific backup, so it is merely a theory, but you still maintain it is not a belief and you don't need to prove it, you realize how ridiculous that sounds? I don't want you to believe anything. I will never be able to provide you with 'scientific backup', it is close to impossible to prove a negative. With your 'merely a theory' comment you further expose your lack of understanding. Of course I don't need to prove it, that is the job of the people who present the idea. quote: Thanks, I stick with agnostic! Hopefully you'll take a closer look at the subject sometime and either relable yourself or at least be able to justify your agnosticism.

GotSteel -> RE: What do you think of Aetheists? (11/19/2010 5:05:01 PM)
Thanks, I'd forgotten about the atheists wager, I fell over laughing the first time I heard that one.

PeonForHer -> RE: What do you think of Aetheists? (11/19/2010 5:05:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze The UK seems to be a bit anal about it, I've seen pubs in Germany declaring that from 9pm (or whatever time they pick) on they are a smoker's club and by entering you become a member of the club, so it's usually fine if you like to smoke inside. I heard, though admittedly I've never checked, that there was more resistance to smoking bans in Germany because Hitler had applied bans on it. If so, then a German government's going to be that bit edgier today to go ahead with an all-out ban.

hard2handle1 -> RE: What do you think of Aetheists? (11/19/2010 5:08:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jaybeee Honoured though I ought to be that your very first post on CM was addressed precisely to little old me, you should introduce yourself to the community at large first. Perhaps then I'll be inclined to check what understanding you have of the wager. Nice sidestep.[:)] Hi everyone. Now, about Pascal...

Jaybeee -> RE: What do you think of Aetheists? (11/19/2010 5:14:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hard2handle1 quote: ORIGINAL: Jaybeee Honoured though I ought to be that your very first post on CM was addressed precisely to little old me, you should introduce yourself to the community at large first. Perhaps then I'll be inclined to check what understanding you have of the wager. Nice sidestep.[:)] Hi everyone. Now, about Pascal... Don't be facetious, sunshine, you're down to your last chance with me. Make it a good one.

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