RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention

RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (Full Version)

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Moonhead -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/24/2010 1:34:25 PM)
Nobody has defended it.

hertz -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/24/2010 1:35:48 PM)
Great - I'm glad we have that sorted.

hlen5 -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/24/2010 4:06:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: hlen5 quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee [Thanks. From that report, I would have to say that the soldiers really screwed up. That report states that the soldiers themselves suspected that there was a bomb. I may or may not look for more information at some point, as there are there are still parts of the whole thing that do not make sense (how a 9 year old opening the bag helped with time constraints?). I also hope that all involved, the two former soldiers, the boy, and his mother, are able to get some sort of therapy. I'm answering the part I bolded - The way it would help with time constraints is it takes a lot more time to wait for a bomb squad to come and investigate/defuse a suspected device than get some hapless bystander to open it up. EFT(edited for typos) Well, that might make sense if it was possible for a 9 year old to block the blast of the explosive, but it isn't. But I supposed after the blast the ones in the immediate area would no longer be worrying about time, or anything else for that matter. I have to wonder if all the people who are so concerned with this little boy, give any thought to the kids on the other side who are sent out into crowds with bombs strapped to their chests. I hope you saw my post (#43) saying that planting bombs (or wearing bombs) or using kids as shields are equally wrong and crazy.

tweakabelle -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/24/2010 5:53:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hlen5 quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: hlen5 quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee [Thanks. From that report, I would have to say that the soldiers really screwed up. That report states that the soldiers themselves suspected that there was a bomb. I may or may not look for more information at some point, as there are there are still parts of the whole thing that do not make sense (how a 9 year old opening the bag helped with time constraints?). I also hope that all involved, the two former soldiers, the boy, and his mother, are able to get some sort of therapy. I'm answering the part I bolded - The way it would help with time constraints is it takes a lot more time to wait for a bomb squad to come and investigate/defuse a suspected device than get some hapless bystander to open it up. EFT(edited for typos) Well, that might make sense if it was possible for a 9 year old to block the blast of the explosive, but it isn't. But I supposed after the blast the ones in the immediate area would no longer be worrying about time, or anything else for that matter. I have to wonder if all the people who are so concerned with this little boy, give any thought to the kids on the other side who are sent out into crowds with bombs strapped to their chests. I hope you saw my post (#43) saying that planting bombs (or wearing bombs) or using kids as shields are equally wrong and crazy. I'm with you 100% on this one, hlen5. I condemn all war crimes equally, without reservation. It doesn't matter who carries them out, it doesn't matter what their so-called justifications (or excuses) are, it doesn't matter now 'noble' their cause is, it doesn't matter how 'evil' the 'other side' is. War crimes are abhorrent, a stain on humanity. Anyone who organises or commits them should face justice, get a fair trial and then suffer the severest consequences if found guilty. I repeat ALL war crimes are EQUALLY abhorrent, to be CONDEMNED WITHOUT RESERVATION OR EXCEPTION* *Please excuse caps but some has mischievously misrepresented my position earlier in the thread and I want to make my position crystal clear.

Anaxagoras -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/24/2010 6:15:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle I condemn all war crimes equally, without reservation. It doesn't matter who carries them out, it doesn't matter what their so-called justifications (or excuses) are, it doesn't matter now 'noble' their cause is, it doesn't matter how 'evil' the 'other side' is. War crimes are abhorrent, a stain on humanity. Anyone who organises or commits them should face justice, get a fair trial and then suffer the severest consequences if found guilty. I repeat ALL war crimes are EQUALLY abhorrent, to be CONDEMNED WITHOUT RESERVATION OR EXCEPTION* Please excuse caps but some has mischievously misrepresented my position earlier in the thread* and I want to make my position crystal clear. No doubt the type in bold refers to me and what I said about her continual and very intensive criticisms of Israel. All I can say is that anyone who has read Tweakabelle's posts on various threads regarding Israel will know it is clearly otherwise.

hertz -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/25/2010 1:09:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle I condemn all war crimes equally, without reservation. It doesn't matter who carries them out, it doesn't matter what their so-called justifications (or excuses) are, it doesn't matter now 'noble' their cause is, it doesn't matter how 'evil' the 'other side' is. War crimes are abhorrent, a stain on humanity. Anyone who organises or commits them should face justice, get a fair trial and then suffer the severest consequences if found guilty. I repeat ALL war crimes are EQUALLY abhorrent, to be CONDEMNED WITHOUT RESERVATION OR EXCEPTION* Please excuse caps but some has mischievously misrepresented my position earlier in the thread* and I want to make my position crystal clear. No doubt the type in bold refers to me and what I said about her continual and very intensive criticisms of Israel. All I can say is that anyone who has read Tweakabelle's posts on various threads regarding Israel will know it is clearly otherwise. I've read every one of her posts, and I have to say I don't know this at all. If tweakabelle says that someone has misrepresented her position, then all I can say is that I know exactly how that feels, because some people seem to believe that the way to win an argument is to pretend the other side said something they didn't; and they play this card way too often for my liking.

Moonhead -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/25/2010 1:13:14 PM)
What, like the way you're insisting that people have been defending Israel's right to use human shields, you mean?

hertz -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/25/2010 2:01:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead What, like the way you're insisting that people have been defending Israel's right to use human shields, you mean? Oh yeah, very droll.

tweakabelle -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/25/2010 3:34:46 PM)
It could be argued that the 2 Israeli war crimes discussed thus far were isolated events, the acts of individuals and no reflection on the Israeli State. I wish to introduce evidence of other war crimes that are clearly an instrument of policy of the Israeli State. In the dying days of the 2006 Israeli-Hizbollah war, "upwards of a million" cluster bombs were planted by the Israelis in the area of South Lebanon between the border and the Litani River, primarily an agricultural area ie. a civilian area. You can read about it in this Israeli newspaper report: http://www.haaretz.com/news/idf-commander-we-fired-more-than-a-million-cluster-bombs-in-lebanon-1.197099 If you think Haaretz is biased against Israel, google it - there are dozens of other reports of this incident. The use of cluster bombs in a civilian area is a war crime. There are many reports of Israel using them against Beirut suburbs during the "Siege of Beirut" in the 1980s. Further the deployment of cluster bombs in such numbers was clearly meant to make South Lebanon uninhabitable, thus committing another war crime - the collective punishment of a civilian population. Many argue that this crime of collective punishment is being repeated today in the blockade of Gaza. It is simply inconceivable that these war crimes occurred without the approval of the highest levels of the Israeli State. Unavoidable conclusion: The Israeli State commits war crimes as a matter of policy, and has done so consistently for generations.

Moonhead -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/25/2010 4:26:00 PM)
When did I say otherwise? I just pointed out that hertz seems to be holding Israel to a rather higher standard than any of the Palestinian organisations.

Anaxagoras -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/25/2010 7:32:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle It could be argued that the 2 Israeli war crimes discussed thus far were isolated events, the acts of individuals and no reflection on the Israeli State. I wish to introduce evidence of other war crimes that are clearly an instrument of policy of the Israeli State. In the court of Collar Me “Politics and Religion” Tweakabelle comes across as quite the prosecutor! quote: In the dying days of the 2006 Israeli-Hizbollah war, "upwards of a million" cluster bombs were planted by the Israelis in the area of South Lebanon between the border and the Litani River, primarily an agricultural area ie. a civilian area. You can read about it in this Israeli newspaper report: http://www.haaretz.com/news/idf-commander-we-fired-more-than-a-million-cluster-bombs-in-lebanon-1.197099 If you think Haaretz is biased against Israel, google it - there are dozens of other reports of this incident. Haaretz is quite often biased and there is evidence of this but in this case other sources report the same story AFAIK. Need it be said again that organisations like Hizbullah fight in civilian areas and so draw Israel into those areas. In turn those areas become war zones. I read that 18,000 cluster bombs were fired in the area which resulted in a million bomblets. This in itself was a bad thing to do but cluster bombs were not illegal at the time. If there was no clearly defined militarised and civilian zones then it is not necessarily the case that it was a war crime. However, I do think it was very irresponsible of the IDF to use such bombs as they can remain lethal for years to come. I think since then some 34 people have died. There was a lot of criticism including by the commander of the forces that invaded Lebanon (a chap called General Halutz AFAIK) who said the cluster bombs were fired against his wishes. He since resigned due to Israel’s limited successes there which I think got a lot of attention in the media. quote: The use of cluster bombs in a civilian area is a war crime. Further the deployment of cluster bombs in such numbers was clearly meant to make South Lebanon uninhabitable, thus committing another war crime - the collective punishment of a civilian population. Many argue that this crime of collective punishment is being repeated today in the blockade of Gaza. It is simply inconceivable that these war crimes occurred without the approval of the highest levels of the Israeli State. There is absolutely no evidence to justify that the cluster bombs were intended to make Lebanon uninhabitable. The death toll since then has been significant as mentioned above but not remotely enough to suggest any intent to clear the land and the land has not been – quite the reverse in fact. AFAIK Israel did not use any cluster bombs during the Gaza war despite early reports that claimed it was so. Since Israel still has stocks of these bombs its fair to assume they must have learnt their lesson. What I find interesting is the omissions from this picture after I talked about how Israel is condemned. A Lebanese legislator called Hassan Fadlallah who is a senior Hizbollah figure admitted publicly on Al-Jazeera that the group targeted civilians in Israeli cities. Hizbollah fired 4,000 rockets into northern Israel, killing and maiming quite a number of civilians, and forcing thousands of civilians to actually flee parts of Northern Israel. Hizbullah has armed itself to the teeth since then. It has in excess of 40,000 military grade rockets and chemical weapons supplied by Iran. The next war that will surely come will be substantially worse. The question is why since Israel left Lebanon in 2000. Can it be that the people pro-Palestinians support so vocally want to destroy Israel? Not at all that is just paranoia! lol

tweakabelle -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/25/2010 8:04:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead When did I say otherwise? I just pointed out that hertz seems to be holding Israel to a rather higher standard than any of the Palestinian organisations. There are at least 2 views on this question. The first asserts the Israel and the Palestinians ought to be judged by the same criteria morally and/or legally. The second asserts that, as Israel is a recognised State, it ought to be held to a higher standard of behaviour than any non-State entity, morally and/or legally. If the Palestinians are serious about statehood, it seems to me reasonable to demand of them the same standards of behaviour that we demand of States. So I tend to go with the former view. When it comes to war crimes, I am unequivocally of this view. Or to put it another way, with respect to war crimes, the Israelis and the Palestinians are as bad as each other.* *Please, posters, note the difference between my stated view and the views fictitiously/imaginatively attributed to me by a certain poster.

Aylee -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/25/2010 8:47:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Unavoidable conclusion: The Israeli State commits war crimes as a matter of policy, and has done so consistently for generations. Except that Palestine is not a signatory nation and does not accept and apply the provisions of the Geneva Conventions.

tweakabelle -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/25/2010 9:14:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Unavoidable conclusion: The Israeli State commits war crimes as a matter of policy, and has done so consistently for generations. Except that Palestine is not a signatory nation and does not accept and apply the provisions of the Geneva Conventions. That may well be the case Aylee, but I'm afraid that I can't see its relevance. Are you saying that Israel is NOT responsible for its own actions? My view is that both sides are responsible for their own actions, whatever they are.

Aylee -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/25/2010 9:36:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle That may well be the case Aylee, but I'm afraid that I can't see its relevance. Are you saying that Israel is NOT responsible for its own actions? My view is that both sides are responsible for their own actions, whatever they are. I am saying that the Geneva Conventions do not apply. That is where the war crimes definitions come from. Simply put, Israel cannot commit war crimes against the Palestinians unless and until the Palestinians start behaving as though they are a signatory to the Geneva conventions. Yes, Israel and its soldiers are responsible for their actions. Just like anyone else is. However, they are not war crimes.

tweakabelle -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/25/2010 11:09:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle That may well be the case Aylee, but I'm afraid that I can't see its relevance. Are you saying that Israel is NOT responsible for its own actions? My view is that both sides are responsible for their own actions, whatever they are. I am saying that the Geneva Conventions do not apply. That is where the war crimes definitions come from. Simply put, Israel cannot commit war crimes against the Palestinians unless and until the Palestinians start behaving as though they are a signatory to the Geneva conventions. Yes, Israel and its soldiers are responsible for their actions. Just like anyone else is. However, they are not war crimes. Even if granted in full (for this post only), this defence does NOT apply to Israeli war crimes in Lebanon, which is where the cluster bombs and collective punishments happened. (And these are not the only war crimes Israel has committed in Lebanon, not by a long shot). Lebanon is of course an independent sovereign republic. The Conventions therefore apply. Even if granted in full (for this post only), it is at best a technical defence. Personally I would rather die than rely on such a defence against the charge of war crimes. There are many more arguments available against this line of defence. Are you certain you wish to stick to it? Surely there's something with a bit more integrity available .......... isn't there?

Termyn8or -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/26/2010 1:40:44 AM)
Not a war crime ? What it's not a war crime if you do it to a non-signatory ? what is this, like playing a game ? I mean that those who are not recognized as players are fair game ? Bring it on, this I want to hear. Hang on one second while I grab munchies and a beverage, because it is going to take a hell of alot of time to explain that one. And, if it is resolved that it is not a war crime, then it is not a crime ? Doesn't sound like the egalitarian ideals SOME spew about as gospel while turning their other fist expecting others to turn their cheek. The cracks are showing. The idol is hollow. It is played out. The shit will eventually hit the fan and none too soon. Motherfuckers like the USA, Israel and the UK, and some others have been getting away with too much for too long. Look RIGHT HERE ON THIS FORUM and you see more dissent, more disdain for Israel, or at least her actions. And it is showing up all over the web and everywhere. And the Jews will get fucked over for real, this time by the actions of their supposed leaders. Just like us cowboys over here. Discriminated against. Why is it one member said they traveled on a French passport ? Why is there a course for US citizens to learn how to act like Canadians for overseas travel ? Well we all seem to stick our foot in it now and then, now it is really their turn. Stories like this are all over the place. Even the shitbox known as the UN can't stand the government of Israel. They can shove their resolutions up their ass, along with anyone else who complains. Israel does whatever they damnwell please and the world knows it. And now more of the world knows it. So in 2080 they'll be whining about what happened to them in about 2030, sound familiar ? Control your government or face the consequences you bring onto your offspring. Fuck them, fuck us, fuck everybody. We would not have so many problems without these supposed "leaders". T

Anaxagoras -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/26/2010 2:57:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle There are at least 2 views on this question. The first asserts the Israel and the Palestinians ought to be judged by the same criteria morally and/or legally. The second asserts that, as Israel is a recognised State, it ought to be held to a higher standard of behaviour than any non-State entity, morally and/or legally. If the Palestinians are serious about statehood, it seems to me reasonable to demand of them the same standards of behaviour that we demand of States. So I tend to go with the former view. When it comes to war crimes, I am unequivocally of this view. Or to put it another way, with respect to war crimes, the Israelis and the Palestinians are as bad as each other.* *Please, posters, note the difference between my stated view and the views fictitiously/imaginatively attributed to me by a certain poster. The Palestinians and Israeli's should indeed be judged by the same values at the very least morally. It is the intent of each side that allows us to judge right and wrong. To say that inherently one side should always be judged more harshly than the other is simply an extension of the very common notion that holds the Palestinians should not be judged at all, which is easily inferred from very many pro-Palestinian stances. If we accept the above then any sort of debate is simply over. Tweakabelle refers to me as "a certain poster". It is all to convenient to have the above stance if you wish to demonise. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Even if granted in full (for this post only), this defence does NOT apply to Israeli war crimes in Lebanon, which is where the cluster bombs and collective punishments happened. (And these are not the only war crimes Israel has committed in Lebanon, not by a long shot). Lebanon is of course an independent sovereign republic. The Conventions therefore apply. Even if granted in full (for this post only), it is at best a technical defence. Personally I would rather die than rely on such a defence against the charge of war crimes. The notion of collective punishment is really a nonsense. If for example in Gaza Hamas is elected democratically then the Palestinian people bear the responsibility of giving these war mongers power, especially when Hamas publicly stated before the elections that they would continue conflict with Israel. It is an extension of the notion I mentioned above where the common pro-Palestinian stance is that Palestinians are not morally answerable for any action. Similarly the Irish people like myself bear moral responsibility for repeatedly electing a corrupt party to run the state which is now bankrupt. The notion of "war crimes" is a legalistic one so it is entirely appropriate to mount a legal defence if another charges anyone with them. Yes indeed Lebanon is a state but it allows a paramilitary force to fight there. A force that has power in the state itself because Hizbullah was actually brought into the government in 2005 by election, one year before the war itself, so where might I ask is Tweakabelle's high moral tone about their publicly stated policy of targetting Israeli civilians?

Hippiekinkster -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/26/2010 3:34:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead What, like the way you're insisting that people have been defending Israel's right to use human shields, you mean? I'm as pro-Israel as they come, and I've never made any such defense. I've never seen anyone else make such a defense, either. Have I missed something?

Moonhead -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/26/2010 5:43:14 AM)
You've missed nothing: hertz has just been arguing with statements that nobody has actually made.

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