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RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem - 4/30/2006 11:40:32 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:


All over the south Gauge. You live in Pennsylvania, and may have a different perspective, but down here in South Texas, we need these people. In the Rio Grande Valley, there are tens of thousands of agra jobs that wouldn't be done if we had to rely on citizen labor, because they are jobs that nobody would do, or would want so much money that we would be paying a dollar for a grapefruit.


Spurious argument. This faulty logic is constantly mimicked on television by provocateurs for big business/big agriculture until even the mainstream parrots it.  A Similar fallacy was perpetuated during abolitionist times by the confederacy. It was said that if the slaves were freed there would be no one to pick and harvest the cotton. Guess what? They had to pay a little more and utilize some of that good old fashioned American ingenuity, but at the end of the day the cotton was brought to harvest.

We might to pay a little more for tomatoes, a bottle of wine or head of lettuce, but those increased costs should be offset by the fact that we won’t have to constantly bail-out the hospitals and school systems from bankruptcy.



 - The Ranger -  Sometimes known as '' Bill the Butcher''





< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 4/30/2006 12:27:07 PM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem - 4/30/2006 12:28:47 PM   
Gauge


Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Your acting like I am a "coyote" running illegals across the border for my own profit. Or perhaps you just like to argue for the sake of arguing.


I like to debate issues. Intellectual discourse is very stimulating to the mental processes. I am not acting like you are anything other than a person stating their opinion. You may interpret my comments however you like.

quote:

 Either way the reality is this (your laudable toilet cleaning career notwithstanding) in large metro areas virtually the ONLY people showing up to do those jobs these days are immigrants legal or otherwise. In the south and the south west those numbers are higher. State and think what you like but business owners will tell you otherwise. They have signs on the door for these types of jobs perpetually and no one replies except illegals. I AM telling you that now these people are by and large the only people that apply for these jobs! 


Let me ask you something. You are a business owner, you have the option to hire someone for dirt cheap wages, no workmen's compensation insurance, no health insurance and they have no legal recourse against you, or you have the option to hire someone above board and pay out more. What do you do? Don't think too long about this because the answer is obvious. With this in mind is it the fact that no one wants these jobs or is it that the employer wants to cut corners to increase their own bottom line and only hires those that they can exploit? Again, with that in mind, is it merely by exclusion that the employer has shunned away a legal resident in this country and the interpretation is that people do not want these jobs? I have never said your facts are wrong, but I do question the validity of the statement that no one wants to do these jobs.

quote:

If you want to prove me otherwise then shut your mouth and go get a job in the fields. You will be the ONLY white boy and the ONLY one with a green card. Thats just a fact, like it or not.


My, my... aren't we the touchy one? Have I not stated that I have done jobs like that? I went past those jobs when I put myself through school to enter a career. If I had to do that type of work again to survive, I would.

Oh... I don't need a Green Card... I was born here.

quote:

As to the rest,,,,, ahhh you know what? Your either just arguing for the sake of that itself or are  pretty daft.


I assure you that I am not daft. In fact, I would venture to say that others would support that statement that I am not daft. I do not argue for the sake of arguing. I especially do not argue with others that are intent on trying to prove their superiority by belittling the person with the opposite point of view.

quote:

There is no shortage of info regarding this all over the web, television, radio, stats via Labor Debt. info from business owners, tax returns or lack of and on and on and on. There are between 11 and 20 MILLION illegals doing jobs no one else wants. If the unemployemt rate was being raised by this issue we would have about 20 percent unemployment and guess what buddy, we don't. What the hell does that tell you? That no one WANTS these jobs.


That tells me that there are 11 to 20 million people here that are taking money away from citizens of this country. It tells me that businesses are making profits off the sweat of what could be deemed as slave labor. Again I pose to you the question if it is by exclusion that it appears that no one wants these jobs or is it by fact? Interpretation of the data is, at best, speculative but the arguments could be made both ways.

quote:

Whatever, you seem to debate things just to see your "Rico Suave wannabe profile photo". Come to me with some real evidence or a good point, otherwise I'm done talking to a wall.


If I was as enamored with my photo as you seem to think I am I would have it as my desktop wallpaper. If you take objection to my stance on this issue, fine... if you want to take pot shots at me personally, I can do that too, but I will not stoop to such a level. I can debate with the best of them and I will admit defeat if, in fact, I am proven wrong, but I will not sit there and impugn someone's character by mindlessly slinging insults. I do not need to undermine someone's point of view that way... I can do it with a level head and an objective point of view.

I have offered good points. Insistence that you are right doesn't make it fact. Debate the points I make and try not to revert to a kindergarten mentality of name calling. If you do not like my photo, allow me to introduce you to the block button. It is the little red hand in the lower left hand corner of my post. Feel free to use it.



_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to MsMacComb)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem - 4/30/2006 12:35:12 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		So, twelve million illegal aliens (less than one-half of one percent of the population) are responsible for bankrupt schools and hospitals? What states have the most illegals, and what states have the most bankrupt schools and hospitals?
 
Thirty percent of the country doesn't have health insurance. Any possibility that might be a factor? The biggest problem with our schools is a high percentage of the kids don't give a fuck, and parents that want to get a lawyer and blame the schools because little Junior is failing. I attended two very average High Schools, and managed to get into a very good college. The difference was that my foster parents demanded that I get good grades, and jacked up my dumb ass when I didn't, or bitched about my teachers.
 
Probably a topic for another thread though.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem - 4/30/2006 1:13:21 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

I have offered good points. Insistence that you are right doesn't make it fact. Debate the points I make and try not to revert to a kindergarten mentality of name calling. If you do not like my photo, allow me to introduce you to the block button. It is the little red hand in the lower left hand corner of my post. Feel free to use it.




Well said, Gauge. I get damned tired of the name-calling around here at times. Disagree if you wish, but act like an adult.
 
Level

(in reply to Gauge)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem - 4/30/2006 1:17:55 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
Ummmm, So, you want to open the borders to anyone and everyone without restriction. Ok, you realize that would drag the average US worker down to third world wages? And you are still for it? Not understanding how this helps anyone except the corporations, as they'd get cheap labor, but average guys loses opportunity.


Exactly how again, why would this drag the average worker down to third world wages? Considering that these people wouldn't even be in competition for the same jobs, I'm  not sure I make that connection at all.
 
As a matter of fact, I would make te exact oposite argument. If American businnes had a pool a pool of cheap labor, they could stay at home. They would need managers for these people. They would have a wealth of skilled jobs needed to support these businesses. They would need IT systems. The poster above, blackpearl81, probably wouldn't have had to wait three years to get a job in the IT field, because there would be a wealth of businesses right here at home, with a ton of IT needs.
 
The answer to the economic woes of the nation, is growth. Growth in areas where we are just being destroyed right now, because we have such a limited pool of cheap labor.
 
Just my opinion. I feel that the people trying to "protect" the jobs of the American worker, are actually costing the American worker a chance at a better job, with better opportunity.


Well, I guess our assumptions are different. My assumption was and is if they weren't illegal they'd pursue better jobs, and the corporations not currently using the cheap illegal labor would use the plentiful new cheap legal labor, I would anyway,  that would work for much less. My assumption also was if it was just a open door policy to immigration we'd have even more immigration than current levels all viaing for the unskilled jobs lower wages further. A huge section of the public is employed in unskilled labor. So, I concluded, if you have increased immigrants, with no hiring restrictions, it would bottom out the unskilled labor market. Which is virtually every manufacturing job I'm aware of. At least in the three factories I worked in there are about 6 unskilled jobs to skilled job(generally a machine tech).  And in a factory full of unskilled spanish speaking employees your management would need to speak spanish fluently so those floor level management jobs wouldn't go to the average american either.

I think it would be a great advantage for skilled people, but would leave the rest making as much as the immigrants. I'm sure it would cause a boom in the stock market as well, along with many new manufacturing jobs. But it would take a large transition period as factories don't tool up and becoming functional overnight. But it still doesn't entirely solve the reasons why manufacturers go overseas, alot of that has to do with environmental standards, as in they don't much care how much pollution you dump, and also it's cheaper because you don't have to invest in expensive equipment that protects your workers from injury and dangerous fumes. Expensive Workers Compensation isn't a factor in third world countries either. I'm not arguing that something doesn't need to be done, but I think just opening up the floodgates to immigration isn't the answer either. And is only a partial solution, that puts the entire burden on wages as the reason for the failed US manufacturing system.

My personal view is a controlled flow of immigration, that doesn't drown the labor market in a flood of new labor would be the best for all portions of the US population. As this would allow a controlled influx in proportion to the expected increase in labor jobs as factories are retooled or built.

Neither view though addresses the other reasons manufactures go overseas.



(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem - 4/30/2006 1:35:01 PM   
blackpearl81


Posts: 506
Joined: 8/30/2005
From: Home of the Yankees
Status: offline
quote:

... and in the save breath, advocate a system that ensures greater and greater outsourcing.


Hmmm.. i'd LOVE to know how I'm advocating outsourcing.. considering i think that for every call center a company builds overseas, they should build one in the states. (perhaps some kind of law could be created for this.. im not sure.. i never claimed to be a legal eagle)

I was just using the IT field as an example of why Illegals should NOT be granted ANY kind of amnesty. The current IT market, parallels the influx of Illegals in the U.S. (the concept being, more people in any one given job market, the higher the availability of new/potential hires, therefore the lower the pay rate) This concept can be proven over and over with ANY field.


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(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem - 4/30/2006 1:38:36 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

So, twelve million illegal aliens (less than one-half of one percent of the population) are responsible for bankrupt schools and hospitals?


This isn't correct according to the Cia website projected US pop. is 298,000,000 estimated out for july  of 2006 12 mill of 298 mill would equal 4.02 percent of the population.

Or if you assume the illegals aren't added in the 298 mil population that would make the total pop 310mil so 12mil of 310mil would equal  3.88 percent of the population.

Nothing to add but the percentage wasn't right according to the governments population numbers anyway.



(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem - 4/30/2006 1:44:25 PM   
redpetals


Posts: 229
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		ok ..these are my thoughts on the spanish version of our (usa) anthem..
it aint our anthem..our anthem is in english..anything else may have a really catchy tune but it AINT our anthem.

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Love is a verb.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem - 4/30/2006 2:16:51 PM   
MsMacComb


Posts: 808
Joined: 3/30/2005
From: My Mothers womb.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
I do not argue for the sake of arguing. I especially do not argue with others that are intent on trying to prove their superiority by belittling the person with the opposite point of view.
I can debate with the best of them and I will admit defeat if, in fact, I am proven wrong, but I will not sit there and impugn someone's character by mindlessly slinging insults.
  

When you debate against my standing up for illegals, and history and then suddenly switch that around and accuse me of supporting the exploitation of them thats no longer bringing anything to the table but rather taking a passive/aggressive approach and an attempt at an insult. You use a lot of words, but really say nothing. You wish to argue both sides and accuse others of taking both sides thats your deal. You may think thats discourse but really its just you flapping your lips.

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(in reply to Gauge)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem - 4/30/2006 4:20:32 PM   
Gauge


Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

When you debate against my standing up for illegals, and history and then suddenly switch that around and accuse me of supporting the exploitation of them thats no longer bringing anything to the table but rather taking a passive/aggressive approach and an attempt at an insult.


But you do support their exploitation if, in fact, you think that they play a part in our economy. How can that not be a clear interpretation of your own stance? You may think I am attempting to insult you, but I can assure you that if I wanted to insult you there would be no question that I have done so.

quote:

 You use a lot of words, but really say nothing. 


Is that so? Then isn't it curious that you have again dodged my questions I have put to you in my last post? Yes, I use a lot of words... I have a vocabulary and I am not ashamed of it nor am I afraid to use it. If you want to believe that I say nothing, fine, please do so. I will continue to debate points as they arise.

quote:

 You wish to argue both sides and accuse others of taking both sides thats your deal. 


Please show me where I have taken both sides of this issue. Also, while you are at it, show me where I accuse others of taking both sides of this issue.

quote:

 You may think thats discourse but really its just you flapping your lips. 


Yet again you sink into the realm of the childish. If you want to debate, debate. If not then why do you feel the need to continue to try to divert attention from the real issues being discussed? Is it because by virtue of your own words you find that I have trapped you and you do not possess the faculties to think your way out? You then think the only way to discredit me is to try to tell me that I have done things I haven't done? If I take your words at face value and I draw a logical conclusion based on your own statements why don't you defend your stance? Why must it degenerate into name calling and silly, unsubstantiated statements?

But here I go again, flapping my lips, not having discourse with you. I have offered up plenty of opportunity for discourse... now, take the challenge and join in what could be a fine debate... or don't take the challenge. The one avoiding discourse isn't me.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to MsMacComb)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem - 4/30/2006 7:22:56 PM   
MsMacComb


Posts: 808
Joined: 3/30/2005
From: My Mothers womb.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
But you do support their exploitation if, in fact, you think that they play a part in our economy. How can that not be a clear interpretation of your own stance? You may think I am attempting to insult you, but I can assure you that if I wanted to insult you there would be no question that I have done so.

Is that so? Then isn't it curious that you have again dodged my questions I have put to you in my last post? Yes, I use a lot of words... I have a vocabulary and I am not ashamed of it nor am I afraid to use it. If you want to believe that I say nothing, fine, please do so. I will continue to debate points as they arise.

Please show me where I have taken both sides of this issue. Also, while you are at it, show me where I accuse others of taking both sides of this issue.

Yet again you sink into the realm of the childish. If you want to debate, debate. If not then why do you feel the need to continue to try to divert attention from the real issues being discussed? Is it because by virtue of your own words you find that I have trapped you and you do not possess the faculties to think your way out? You then think the only way to discredit me is to try to tell me that I have done things I haven't done? If I take your words at face value and I draw a logical conclusion based on your own statements why don't you defend your stance? Why must it degenerate into name calling and silly, unsubstantiated statements?

But here I go again, flapping my lips, not having discourse with you. I have offered up plenty of opportunity for discourse... now, take the challenge and join in what could be a fine debate... or don't take the challenge. The one avoiding discourse isn't me.
 

So what would your point be? You've never actually taken a stance on anything other than you think illegals shouldnt be here, as do I. Where are you going with this? You have no questions that can be answered as you simply state your opinion, which is fine but I have no desire to try to change the opinion of one who's opinion is baseless. 
Verbiage without a point or meaning is simply diarrhea of the mouth. The web is full of anally retentive pedantic blabber mouths hung up on semantics and platitudes. They get pious, indignant, they exhaust their arsenal of used up regurgitated "cut and paste" notions and pepper it again with great verbosity in a most alacritous manner. They pontificate, they present themselves as paragons of virture, of impeccable morals, they may be full of pomp, pretense and false bravado or braggadocio. Some may refer to the very moment when they so proudly were matriculated and their ensuing years at some over priced institute of higher education where they then "earn" a degree that means nothing, will yield nothing yet its a point of pride they will hearald that they have a "vocabulary and arent afraid to use it" lol. Yet they never actually SAY anything.
But surely your not one of "those" people right?

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem - 4/30/2006 8:30:23 PM   
Saratov


Posts: 1716
Joined: 10/22/2005
Status: offline 		Don't we already have another thread to argue about the illegals?  I thought this one was supposed to be about the spanish/mexican version of our national anthem...

(in reply to MsMacComb)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem - 4/30/2006 8:41:42 PM   
TexasMaam


Posts: 1467
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		In my line of work, I use between four to six of the nine languages I speak, read and write on a daily basis. 

I see international business as the cornerstone of our future economy.  Bleeding heart has absolutely nothing to do with it.  Bleeding American blue collar worker's pocketbooks have everything to do with it.

International commerce and trade will be the only answer to the downward spiraling US Economy.  We're simply not the only world players anymore, and those of us who understand that it's a new ballgame with different rules will be the successful models of tomorrow's enterprise.

I intend to be at the forefront.

You are more than welcome to either bring up the rear or continue to show yours.

TexasMaam

(in reply to Gauge)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem - 4/30/2006 8:57:44 PM   
Gauge


Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

But surely your not one of "those" people right?


You would be correct, I am not. Now... you have not answered any questions I have asked. You continue to evade them. You continue to layer on the insults... nicely done.

The wonderful thing about things like this are that your actions speak volumes about you.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to MsMacComb)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem - 4/30/2006 9:00:50 PM   
Gauge


Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Saratov

Don't we already have another thread to argue about the illegals?  I thought this one was supposed to be about the spanish/mexican version of our national anthem...


And you are correct, somehow I got sidetracked. My apologies.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to Saratov)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem - 4/30/2006 9:40:34 PM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline 		 
quote:

 What states have the most illegals, and what states have the most bankrupt schools and hospitals? 


Wern't you the one who mentioned something about going to law school? The first rule of thumb for any attorney : Never ask questions you already know the answer to. Do you really want me to answer that with a whole series of links? - Get it Girl!
quote:

 Thirty percent of the country doesn't have health insurance. Any possibility that might be a factor?



Surely its a factor. But that's my whole point.... that thirty percent is already a huge problem, another twelve to twenty-five million, only exacerbates it further and pushes it over the edge.
quote:

 The biggest problem with our schools is a high percentage of the kids don't give a fuck, and parents that want to get a lawyer and blame the schools because little Junior is failing
 
Well… I’d say that’s more of a problem with the specific individual and not the school. The two biggest problems I see : Are public employee unions with unrealistic expectations, and illegal aliens who are largely responsible for overcrowding in today’s classrooms, especially as it relates to border states.
quote:

 
Probably a topic for another thread though.


Bet! You start one and I'll add some hella facetious comments


 - R



_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem - 4/30/2006 9:59:20 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TexasMaam

In my line of work, I use between four to six of the nine languages I speak, read and write on a daily basis.


How long did it take you to learn those languages? I'm just curious, is that what you were hired for? Or is it just something else you picked up along the way?

(in reply to TexasMaam)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem - 5/1/2006 7:28:16 PM   
Evanesce


Posts: 2325
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I am absolutely offended & outraged about it. I would like to see every illegal immigrant in this country thrown out on their asses. And I would like to see the companies who hired them heavily fined.  We need to get serious about border security in this country.


I have to say I agree with you. 
 
I have nothing against immigrants.  My great grandparents were Hungarian immigrants.  But they were legal immigrants.  They came here; they worked hard; they learned English; and they became US citizens.
 
What I have a problem with is ILLEGAL immigrants.  They were out there on the street protesting for their "rights" all day long today.  What rights?  They're ILLEGAL!  They have no rights!!  Except the right to go back where they came from and do it legally if they want so badly to stay in this country. 
 
I take a rather hard-nosed stand when it comes to immigration, because a very dear friend of mine, at the ripe old age of 21, was stabbed to death behind the counter of the 7-11 at which he was working - by a 16-yr-old illegal Mexican - over a lousy pair of sunglasses my friend stopped the punk from stealing.  Of course, the punk fled back to Mexico and was never found.  What about my friend's rights???
 
Fuck 'em all.  Send their asses back where they came from and close the freakin' borders!!!

_____________________________

Denise

Give a slave what he truly needs, and he will do what you want.

"There's never a hero in a battle of ego." - Big & Rich


(in reply to talmar)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem - 5/2/2006 2:06:28 AM   
ArtCatDom


Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
On another aspect of other replies.. The Government has just announced that in future all immigrents wanting Australian Citizenship must pass an English language test and a test of basic Australian History (Something which the large majority of Aussies couldn't pass)


We've a similar system in the United States. Immigrants are required to know far more American history than the vast majority of Americans if they hope to pass their citizenship test. We do not have a national official language however.

*meow*

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem - 5/2/2006 2:20:15 AM   
ArtCatDom


Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMacComb

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
  If someone just moved into my house because it was nicer than theirs, then proceeded to claim injustice when I told them to leave, told me to pay for this and that, then went to work for some employer I have nothing to do with, I doubt anyone would think that was crazy. 
 
 
Thats exactly what happened,,,,many years ago. We came here and took California, Texas, New Mexico and Arizona from them. We decided their "house" was nice so we stole it and didnt pay a dime for it after murdering many of those "homeowners", their wives and kids. Remember the Alamo? Thats what that was all about.


Where are you getting your (mis)information?

The American Southwest was *sold* to us after the conclusion of the Mexican-American War under the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.

We lost the Alamo if you will recall. And on that topic, the Republic of Texas had been independent of Mexico for over a decade *before* the Mexican-American war and had been diplomatically recognized by countries such as the UK.

Also worth mentioning that it was Mexico that started the war by attacking less than 100 troops with a force of 2000.

*meow*

(in reply to MsMacComb)
Profile   Post #: 100
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