RE: What mistakes do you make and get punished for?

RE: What mistakes do you make and get punished for? (Full Version)

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yellowroses -> RE: What mistakes do you make and get punished for? (11/30/2010 10:09:25 AM)
@AnimusRex- quote: Kim herself needs an occasional demonstration of control even if it is simply a command softly spoken that requires her to say "yes, Sir". Thank you for demonstrating control exactly when you know I need it! After all this time you still make my heart skip a beat and make me weak in the knees. @leadership527- quote: places where things look so similar on the surface and all the same words are being used, yet just one layer into the onion it's an entirely different beast. Excellently stated! Thank you for putting into words what I needed explained!

daddysprop247 -> RE: What mistakes do you make and get punished for? (11/30/2010 12:21:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 It would, of course, be a mistake to think that simply because i do not punish Carol that I have no other way to define and enforce boundaries. greetings Jeff... you're correct of course, and i wouldn't make that assumption. just as i'm sure you wouldn't make the assumption that the presence of a punishment dynamic means that obedience does not take precedence. [;)] i'm not sure the difference in mindsets and ways here has to do with a focus on obedience v. a focus on control. in this household, my obedience is basically a given. it is assumed that i will always be obedient, because that is my place. only one act of conscious disobedience has occurred in our dynamic in 10 years, and it was in the very early days. it was painful and difficult for us both, and we managed through, but we both feel pretty confidently that such a thing would never, ever, EVER happen again. so i would not say that my Master "focuses" on obedience. it is not something which requires focus, it simply is. to "focus" on obedience implies a possibility that it is questionable, that it may not always be there. as for control, that too is a given, simply because of his personality. like most of those Domly types, he is a controlling sort. [:D] He wants it his way, no questions or hesitations, and yesterday. i don't think of him as a micromanager, but he does focus on the minute and mundane details as much as the big picture. another Master may tell his slave, "get me a glass of water," and she proceeds to the kitchen, fills a glass with cold water, then brings it to her Master who happily drinks. when my Master says "get me a glass of water," he will at the same time gesture in such a way which tells me from which type of glass and precisely how much he wishes to drink. i will know if he wants to drink from a highball glass half full, or from a pilsner 3/4 full, or what. if i bring back anything different then there will be heck to pay. because things must be his way, and he expects me to pay attention and know that way. i do recognize that many of the things i'm punished for would not be a "big deal" in other M/s households, but they are a big deal for us because of the expectations he places on me. and again, it truly does feel good that someone has enough faith in me to feel that i can meet such expectations. for someone who suffers from very low self-esteem as i have all my life, it holds a lot of weight.

CaringandReal -> RE: What mistakes do you make and get punished for? (11/30/2010 3:39:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I actually don't punish for mistakes. I only punish for what is best termed 'willful disobedience'. Not accidents, not things that were out of his control, and not issues that haven't come up prior where I haven't specifically communicated what is expected. Stupid stuff like overcooking the eggs or not being able to pick up the dry cleaning because of a traffic issue don't qualify. I'm more reasonable than that. My disciplinary procedure is very much what many folks would expect to experience in their employment. Minor infractions are usually situations where I will go back, make sure that My expectations are known and reaffirm that My policy is understood. Just like at your job, there are certain infractions that are considered major that I won't tolerate being violated even once. I like the term willful disobedience. But I would. :) That was my former master's "bar' for punishment as well. I suspect there's many shades of gray between willful disobedience and forgetfulness or klutzyness. I'll give an example. I'd be interested to hear, Lady Pact, if you think this is willful disobedience or, if not, if it still deserves punishment. You have your submissive go to bed at a certain time every night, primarily because he has to get up at a very early hour in the morning. He normally does this. But in the last week something has changed: the need to be up so early is no longer there. One night you notice, 15 minutes past bedtime, that he's still up. You narrow your eyes and ask him what he thinks he's doing up at this hour. He admits that he forgot and then he adds that he also thought, when you reminded him of the time, that it was now Ok to go to bed later because the reason to go to bed so early had been removed. But it had not occurred to him to discuss this with you first (so it's forgetfulness but of a different degree, maybe, than forgetting to pick up the cleaning?)--he'd just determined that of his own accord. Would this be willful disobedience or not and why?

leadership527 -> RE: What mistakes do you make and get punished for? (11/30/2010 4:14:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CaringandReal You have your submissive go to bed at a certain time every night, primarily because he has to get up at a very early hour in the morning. He normally does this. But in the last week something has changed: the need to be up so early is no longer there. One night you notice, 15 minutes past bedtime, that he's still up. You narrow your eyes and ask him what he thinks he's doing up at this hour. He admits that he forgot and then he adds that he also thought, when you reminded him of the time, that it was now Ok to go to bed later because the reason to go to bed so early had been removed. But it had not occurred to him to discuss this with you first (so it's forgetfulness but of a different degree, maybe, than forgetting to pick up the cleaning?)--he'd just determined that of his own accord. Would this be willful disobedience or not and why? Oooooh, how fun! OK, so for me, the story you described would not be willful disobedience the first time. The thought pattern is totally reasonable and it's highly unlikely that Carol was trying to thwart me. Rather, she felt that the reason for the command didn't apply so there was nothing left to thwart. She may or may not have been wrong about that, but I do not demand that Carol exercise no independent thought (I specifically tell her when I want her to turn off her brain and obey/agree/whatever). If I allow her to think things through, then inevitably she'll sometimes get to the wrong answer. I'm fine with her getting to the wrong answer with the right intent as an infrequent outcome. That's how I'd read that story. For us, it'd be as simple as correcting the misconception about bed time and also correcting however she got her reasoning wrong so she'll better understand my intent some other day. No biggie though. Even if I was inclined to punish I'd have to ask what the point would be. A simple "No, I really meant 9:00pm and don't ever reinterpret a command of mine again." would do the trick. So I'd be unclear on what additional value I was getting from the punishment that wasn't solved in a 15 second sentence.

leadership527 -> RE: What mistakes do you make and get punished for? (11/30/2010 4:34:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 you're correct of course, and i wouldn't make that assumption. just as i'm sure you wouldn't make the assumption that the presence of a punishment dynamic means that obedience does not take precedence. [;)] 'natch. I think such things are interesting analytical tools but don't ever capture the complexity of the thing. I'm generally noodling over that divide and it's implications but as is always true, there are a bajillion factors that go into these things.

LadyPact -> RE: What mistakes do you make and get punished for? (11/30/2010 4:37:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CaringandReal I like the term willful disobedience. But I would. :) That was my former master's "bar' for punishment as well. I suspect there's many shades of gray between willful disobedience and forgetfulness or klutzyness. I'll give an example. I'd be interested to hear, Lady Pact, if you think this is willful disobedience or, if not, if it still deserves punishment. You have your submissive go to bed at a certain time every night, primarily because he has to get up at a very early hour in the morning. He normally does this. But in the last week something has changed: the need to be up so early is no longer there. One night you notice, 15 minutes past bedtime, that he's still up. You narrow your eyes and ask him what he thinks he's doing up at this hour. He admits that he forgot and then he adds that he also thought, when you reminded him of the time, that it was now Ok to go to bed later because the reason to go to bed so early had been removed. But it had not occurred to him to discuss this with you first (so it's forgetfulness but of a different degree, maybe, than forgetting to pick up the cleaning?)--he'd just determined that of his own accord. Would this be willful disobedience or not and why? I don't think I'd consider that willful disobedience. I'd be more concerned with two factors. One being that a week had gone by and I hadn't been informed of the schedule change. The other being that he had it in his mind to override a decision that I had already made. It would have been Me who specified what time he goes to bed at night. The circumstances of the reason that I had him doing so may have changed, but My decision didn't. If the above scenario happened, My next comment would be something to the tune of, "you must have something that you want to request". The response to which had better be him on his knees asking if his bedtime can be adjusted. Usually a good way to give that gentle nudge of reminder of who is in charge. Oh, and making him stick to the original bedtime for that evening isn't a punishment. That just making him abide by the rule that was already in place.

girlygurl -> RE: What mistakes do you make and get punished for? (11/30/2010 5:31:13 PM)
I am human and i do make mistakes but Sir does not punish me for mistakes. Sir will address the mistake, discuss it and it's immediately corrected. Now, if I were to willfully disobey I would be punished. quote: ORIGINAL: submitting4U As a submissive, when I've been punished I can say it was usually from prior incidents that led the dom/domina to believe it was time to create a boundary or to make a point of who is in charge. The latest infraction usually was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. Therefore, the punishments seemed out of proportion to the offense but I usually knew there was a history behind the anger. These punishments involved corporal beatings and typically public humiliations, like severe face slapping in a public venue, a single tail whipping at a friend's back yard party in front of vanilla guests, and toilet degradation witnessed by her friends who were aghast by the scene. In some ways I did provoke it and subs usually do this with some consciousness to complete their underlying schema, namely that they are less worthy and in need of punishment to feel "OK". In my opinion your punishment is between you and your D-type, if he/she wants to include others ie. the public or vanilla friends, I would hope they were asked to be a part of said punishment verses using them to satisfy his/her punishment. quote: "subs usually do this with some consciousness to complete their underlying schema, namely that they are less worthy and in need of punishment to feel "OK". Pointing out that fact that you used the word "usually" I will say that I'm not one of those "usual" instances. I do not need or want to be beat period, let alone to feel "OK". If there is a scene the includes a tool of His choosing I'm all for that! You won't find me consciously or subconsciously looking to displease Him that would result in any sort of punishment. To make Sir unhappy breaks my heart as does disappointing Him. As for the "less worthy" comment.... It is my opinion that a D-type is in a position to encourage, build, and add too their s-types self worth. Heck, apparently I'm worthy.... I am worthy to be His [:)]

Zevar -> RE: What mistakes do you make and get punished for? (11/30/2010 5:32:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: yellowroses I was reading another thread and if got me thinking. What have you done or has your submissive done that has earned them/you a punishment? I am not talking "fun"ishment here. For example, I forgot to __________ so I received a spanking/cornertime/isolation. Thank you in adavance! yellowroses Punishment from one adult unto another implies correction from a position of retribution. Therefore, it is rather most effective to assert authority in a manner that is devoid of punitive retribution, thus inclined toward a cognitive approach which is mutually respectful of one another, adult to adult. Take care!

CaringandReal -> RE: What mistakes do you make and get punished for? (11/30/2010 6:53:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: CaringandReal I like the term willful disobedience. But I would. :) That was my former master's "bar' for punishment as well. I suspect there's many shades of gray between willful disobedience and forgetfulness or klutzyness. I'll give an example. I'd be interested to hear, Lady Pact, if you think this is willful disobedience or, if not, if it still deserves punishment. You have your submissive go to bed at a certain time every night, primarily because he has to get up at a very early hour in the morning. He normally does this. But in the last week something has changed: the need to be up so early is no longer there. One night you notice, 15 minutes past bedtime, that he's still up. You narrow your eyes and ask him what he thinks he's doing up at this hour. He admits that he forgot and then he adds that he also thought, when you reminded him of the time, that it was now Ok to go to bed later because the reason to go to bed so early had been removed. But it had not occurred to him to discuss this with you first (so it's forgetfulness but of a different degree, maybe, than forgetting to pick up the cleaning?)--he'd just determined that of his own accord. Would this be willful disobedience or not and why? I don't think I'd consider that willful disobedience. I'd be more concerned with two factors. One being that a week had gone by and I hadn't been informed of the schedule change. The other being that he had it in his mind to override a decision that I had already made. It would have been Me who specified what time he goes to bed at night. The circumstances of the reason that I had him doing so may have changed, but My decision didn't. If the above scenario happened, My next comment would be something to the tune of, "you must have something that you want to request". The response to which had better be him on his knees asking if his bedtime can be adjusted. Usually a good way to give that gentle nudge of reminder of who is in charge. Oh, and making him stick to the original bedtime for that evening isn't a punishment. That just making him abide by the rule that was already in place. Thanks for answering! I like hearing your answers to quesitons. :) Your reasoning is so often calm, clear, and logical and you get to the heart of the matter. In my example I did not make this clear but I imagined that both dom and sub knew about the change in circumstances but that the dom hadn't changed the bed time and the sub hadn't requested a change. "The circumstances of the reason that I had him doing so may have changed, but My decision didn't." That's kind of along the lines of what I was thinking too, that it indicated skewed thinking or forgetting to think about certain important things, on the sub's part. Forgetting is one thing. Forgetting the important stuff is another, to me.

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