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International patents ? - 12/4/2010 1:59:01 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		This cuts many ways but I only mean it in one specific way. DO NOT GET POLITICAL.

I have an idea. I have evaluated the market for my invention and it is limited. It is a tool and would not be the first one I built. Things used to be so much simpler. With this I have to find somr college kids who are in need of a little cash and a decent class project. This is to design the software, it's a basic USB interface with a few addons, in it's original form it collects digital data records it and stores it on a HD or thumbdrive. Looks almost like  thumbdrive but it has a wire. Like a Majicjack. But what it interfaces to is different.

The market is limited at the moment, I think it might be permenently. So I have decided not o seek a patent at this time. However there is a worldwide market and in discussion it was brought up "What if you made a hundred grand and found out someone else made millions:. A valid point. Being set for a year or for life damnear, wel that is the quetion.

The options are to get the patent, which makes the design public. A patent really only gives you two rights. One is your claim to fame and the other is to sue people who copy your design. A patent is not self enforcing, therefore you must police the market or pay to have it done. And that os not the end. Even with all the advantages, you might have to prove all kinds of shit, and prior art is probably a bitch about now.

Prior art is an issue. Everything is built on something else, like the stove was invented to take advantage if the discovery of fire. so in reality (not that we live it), have you added enough to deserve to be compensared for it ? That's a patent.

Now, I've thought about my idea and I know the industry in which this tool woulo be sold and I think realistically, I could make ballpark fifty grand for two months work, but a few things after, and it;s not like all that money just appears the next day. As the sales happen it comes in.

Now comes, beyond the US patent issue is the international. Rvery thing I said applies to the US. Now there are similar markets on other countries, but to access them is a bit different. Will my US intellectual proeperty rights be enforced in Malaysia, Korea or China ? I think not, at least in the same form. A form I do not understand.

Really I am not greedy, if I can do something in my spare time for a couple of months and make a hundred grand that would be finr. But if someone else makes ten timez that, is that fair ? Of course it's not.

So we get to the point where I consider NOT getting a patent at all, which in naturwe of course makes the design public.

But then the situation where the patent could be stolen was brought up. Valid point, however there is a way. If you have a device that has been sold, that could constitute the prior art, otherwise someone could patent the wheel. This must be constant among nations, there's almost no way it couldn't.

So should I patent or not ? The US is not the whole market and I know it. But to get to that scale of operation I would just have to go international. With a limited market they won't go for it. If they do I am looking at those who are desparate for work. Do I weant that ? Which way to go ?

T
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RE: International patents ? - 12/4/2010 2:58:41 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline 		Hi Termyn,

First of all, there are two functions a patent would have. One is to protect your idea whilst you turn it into a product and the other is to protect your product from people copying it. The decision as to whether or not to patent is usually based on the value of the product compared to the cost of the patent process. If you can make 50 thousand in two months but then don't expect to take the product any further than that, then its probably not worth spending the time and money on the paper process. If you intend extending your product to the rest of the world and making it a longer term investment, then it would be wise to patent the product worldwide.
It doesn't' sound like you expect to make this a world wide product or invest in it for a long time. I would be tempted to get to the market first or license the idea to a much larger manufacturer who already has the sales and distributions channels.

< Message edited by allthatjaz -- 12/4/2010 2:59:24 AM >

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RE: International patents ? - 12/4/2010 3:54:37 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"One is to protect your idea whilst you turn it into a product"

From my understanding in the US it is required to have a working prototype to be granted a patent. I could be wrong, now at least.

"protect your product from people copying it"

That only gives you standing in tort law. You have to detect and prosecute those cases yourself, at your own expense.

" If you can make 50 thousand in two months "

This was miscontrued in an earlier verbal argument on the subject. You do not get a chack for fifty grand two moths later. The profit may well be higher, but it does not come all at once. A couple of people have profited, Dick Smith/Bob Parker comes to mind. Parker designed the thing but then let someone else build it. He also sold kits. This is small scale, in the big picture.

"I would be tempted to get to the market first or license the idea to a much larger manufacturer who already has the sales and distributions channels.
"

Zzactly, it is one or the other. It's like gambling in a way, bet big or call. Realistically I see the market os 1% if that. As such, it is like being in a poker game with a low pair. Going worldwide and ebforcing the patent worldwide is too much. But sticking to the domestic market and concentrating on it I could make enough. Bet the max, chack or fold.

Now Parker just decided to go public with the design, and that is that, a guy named Dick Smith (uhuh, got involved and these things are still sold).

This is not a full time job. I haven't had a full time job since,,,,,,,, can't remember right now.

But I am not a welfare ho by any means. Real opportunities for people who want to do something are just about gone. Strike out on your own at least. Try something. workin for the Man doesn't cut it, that is reality. So I look for options. I have an idea. This is the USA.

This is what I got. A tool used by possibly a half a million businesses in the USA. If I get sales at 1% of that and make ten bucks a crack, that's money because it just won't take that long, perhaps two months like I said. It could go international, but then there is another point, does prior art apply to patents in other countries ? Thus the topic of this post. What happens over the border ?

It's obvious that a patent is harder to enforce, but with the proper affiliates that might just be taken care of. So it is a question of whether to sign up with the bigboys or not. I have had something like this on my plate before, but now the laws are so fucked I don't know exactly what to do, everything may have changed. All the research I would have to do, damn.

The question in the OP is the same, but all of these factors, I wonder if they had an effect in the stifling of creativity.

But then life sucks, get over it.

T

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RE: International patents ? - 12/4/2010 4:46:35 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		Hi, Termy.  I work for EchoStar, which got sued by Tivo for the idea of recording TV shows on a set top box.  (It's a devilish complicated case and is not yet resolved.)  After that, EchoStar got VERY serious about patents and has every engineer trained in a little patent law.

You can apply for a patent in any country.  It applies in that country and prohibits manufacture (and something else, likely sales) in that country.  So you should investigate which countries have the market for it, and the means to make it.

You say that there are 500K potential customers and you assume that you could sell it to them for $10 apiece.  An old rule of thumb is that your retail price should be four times what you make it for, to cover sales/marketing, overhead, etc,  I do not understand your assumption that 1% will buy it, and that's it - with good marketing, you should have higher penetration than that.  I also get the feeling that you are confusing gross revenues with net income and not accounting for expenses.

You do not need to put in a lot of resources to police the market  If someone else copies your product and it sells fourteen units, it's not worth your time to go after them.  Only spend the effort if it's worth your while.

I vote that you go ahead for a few reasons:
1. It'll be a growth experience.  Try something else, learn.
2. You're liable to have other ideas down the road, patentable ones.  When another one hits, you will know the ropes already.
3. When your next idea hits, you will have legit cred if you can show that you already have a patent under your belt and you tool it to market.  The business world is full of dreamers and too few doers.  prospective partners will look at you a LOT differently if you have a track record.
4. You'll make the world that much of a better place for your idea.


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RE: International patents ? - 12/4/2010 5:41:54 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline 		does prior art apply to patents in other countries ? As far as I am aware, the answer to that question is yes.

You can only patent something if you have the money to do so and its an expensive business.
I don't think you should ever be over optimistic If your business plan relies on you getting 1% of the market then you may well fail, but equally, one other very good reason to patent nationally or worldwide, is you will find it much easier to get an investor with a patent in place.

I fundamentally disagree with DS when he says, "If someone else copies your product and it sells fourteen units, it's not worth your time to go after them. Only spend the effort if it's worth your while." If you don't protect your patent people will exploit it. The sort of people that infringe patents don't do it by accident. A one man band who is making your product in their garage or a multi national company who is making them by the millions, is stealing YOUR profit. If you know that you can defend your patents then defending the case will cost you nothing.

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RE: International patents ? - 12/4/2010 11:28:11 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"Hi, Termy.  I work for EchoStar, which got sued by Tivo for the idea of recording TV shows on a set top box.  (It's a devilish complicated case and is not yet resolved.)"

This sounds like the MPAA vs. Sony in syndication. I'm not sure if it was the MPAA, but someone sued Sony to prevent the sale of VCRs in the US. Perhaps some of that case law still exists.

I have also heard of the "not invented here" syndrome. Sometimes big companies won't even look because they are afraid of a conflict because they are already doing in house research and/or development.

My idea is not that big, it's a tool basically, a quite specialised tool. And I think I expressed it incorrectly, it would not be ten bucks each, I would hope to net ten bucks apiece. The units would probbly cost around a hundred or two.

This is not the most important innovation of the century. All the technology exists, this is just a different application. In reality it is a simple data recorder, where it differs is the type of data it records and the interface to recieve and send the data.

So it might be better in this case to just develop and build it, get a bunch ready, market it hard and take the money and run. But from what I understand, it's existence and actual sale on record should constitute prior art. I think.

Marketing has gotten alot easier due to the internet. What's more not being the cure for the common cold I don't think I could, or even should be able to sit on my laurels for the rest of my life because of it.

Someday soon I should look into it, just for the hell of it if nothing else. My information is dated, and everything changes. I'm sure the cost of a patent is higher, but no matter what it is, there is a point where it is worth it. Is it worth the gamble or is it a sucker bet ? This is electronics and quite a few things that were oncew only in the domain of the qualified have trickled down to the general public. A consideration worth weighing.

In the verbal argument earlier the point was made "How will it feel if you make your couple hundred grand or whatever and Xi Kwik Dik in China makes millions ?". I lost my greed a couple of years ago, but that doesn't mean I am going to give everything away.

Thus the question.

T

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RE: International patents ? - 12/4/2010 11:33:50 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"does prior art apply to patents in other countries ? As far as I am aware, the answer to that question is yes. "

I would hope so. But then the thing there as I see it is that it only prevents someone else from patenting it.

To all : You do know about the Rudolf Deisel fiasco right ?

Your Deisel engine is called that because of a snafu in patent law. Not everybodt knows it because it is simply not front page news, but I have it from industry sources. Details on request.

Anyway, Saturday is upon me and I'll be back to this later. Smells too much like business. Oy the sacrifices !

But like I said I did not cure the common cold, so going patentless might be a good option, pick up a few bucks and let it go.

T

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RE: International patents ? - 12/4/2010 11:35:02 AM   
DarkSteven


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Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
In reality it is a simple data recorder, where it differs is the type of data it records and the interface to recieve and send the data.



It sounds like you are using existing technology in a different way.  My patent law background is nowhere near strong enough for that.

And allthatjaz is correct.  I was looking at each patent infringement individually, but they are correct that you need to establish a pattern of defending your patent to give it legitimacy.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: International patents ? - 12/4/2010 11:59:00 AM   
subtlebutterfly


Posts: 2230
Joined: 6/15/2008
From: Not your hood
Status: offline 		There are extremely strict requirements a thing needs to fulfill to be patented and as far as I'm concerned and based on how you describe it then no I don't believe it may be unique enough but I'd need to know a lot more details.

In regards to whether the patents apply in other countries then yes and no, it may and may not be protected. It depends on how the patent is registered, there're a few ways to register a patent.

Lastly yes the main patent protection you would gain would be that other people would not be able to copy your gadget and patent it. However, supervising the markets and making sure nobody is copying your gadget might be more difficult, unless of course that "copy" will become recognized enough so you couldn't miss it. The best way would be to patent your thing and have somebody else, a larger company, handle the rest.

Honestly, unless it's going to be a breakthrough I doubt patenting is worth the effort just to make a few bucks. Patenting costs and it costs to maintain it and by the sound of it I doubt your gadget would qualify no offense.

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RE: International patents ? - 12/5/2010 8:10:54 AM   
MercTech


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Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		The basic purpose of a patent is to protect an innovator for a limited time to allow a business to get off the ground without competition from larger established businesses. After the patent expires, the design is public knowledge and may be used by anyone with impunity.

Maintaining a design as proprietary knowledge means that anyone who can get access to the design may use it but it will not become public knowledge unless either stolen or you license it or release it.

Both memes have validity. You have to decide what direction to take.

Beware of overly specific patents. The "Rubik's Cube" pops to mind. The originator patented the whole design for the toy and not just the joint/hinge mechanism. Soooo, all another person had to do was change the color of the faces and it was not patent infringement. The original designer didn't make much off of a multi-million dollar toy fad.

I've looked into the issue over some ideas of my own.

As to patents applying in other countries, they do if it is a country that has a treaty with your country for patent reciprocity. i.e. Canada and the U.K. honor U.S. patents but China and Maylaysia do not.

Stefan

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RE: International patents ? - 12/5/2010 5:10:05 PM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline 		We were out with friends earlier and somehow we got onto the topic of patenting a product. A friend told me that Dyson (vacuum cleaners) have got 30 patent lawyers working full time for Dyson.

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RE: International patents ? - 12/5/2010 6:05:23 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		FR

So take the money and run then ? Actually that plan is looking pretty good right now.

Patents are a pain in the ass, international patents are an international pain in the ass. Making a federal case out of something is going backwards.

I'd like to slel things door to door, and just pocket the loot. Get in, take and then get out. That's what the big players do. When appropriate.

T

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