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RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic - 12/6/2010 3:32:18 PM   
littlewonder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

the idea of my mistakes going unnoticed or even treated as no big whoop definitely makes me feel bad. it would be like my actions are not even worthy of my mate's attention, or that he didn't really care whether i improved/grew or not.



This. I've been in relationships where anytime I did something wrong they just would shrug their shoulders or say "ok" and they didn't care at all, didn't show any disappointment...nothing, nada which made me think that they didn't really care about much of anything at all about me and so therefore they were just biding their time with me which in the end turned out to be exactly what was happening.

So yeah, punishment for me is exactly how daddysprop describes it. It's very refreshing and makes life and love a lot simpler for me.


(in reply to daddysprop247)
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RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic - 12/6/2010 3:34:46 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

(corner time stops being effective at what age 5)


huh....I'm 39 and it's still effective on me.

and I don't even like ageplay. Go figure.



For me it's a way to just stop, and be silent.  Whether it's facing a corner, or being put in a closet, or just being put in a different room.  Contemplation is a good thing - no matter what age.


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RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic - 12/6/2010 3:52:24 PM   
littlewonder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

(corner time stops being effective at what age 5)


huh....I'm 39 and it's still effective on me.

and I don't even like ageplay. Go figure.



For me it's a way to just stop, and be silent.  Whether it's facing a corner, or being put in a closet, or just being put in a different room.  Contemplation is a good thing - no matter what age.



Exactly. Master understands my need for silence, contemplation and meditation. He knows how much i need that to center myself. Facing a corner helps me with reflecting on what I did and what I can do to fix it and reminds me that I've gotten off track from my morals and values.

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RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic - 12/6/2010 3:53:14 PM   
Owlet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
i get closure, which is absolutely necessary and would be impossible for me otherwise.


This is a big part of it for me as well. I wouldn't say punishment is the center of my dynamic, but it has a place. It helps me modify my behavior into healthier lines. I have a tendency to beat myself up for the tiniest mistakes, and it's something I have a very hard time letting go of. So, when I've done something that warrants punishment, my Master is able to take the burden of guilt and direct it into the punishment. I'm able to focus on serving the terms of the punishment with as much grace as possible, instead of beating myself up over it. When the punishment is over, it's much easier for me to let it go and move on than it would have been otherwise.

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RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic - 12/6/2010 5:12:43 PM   
daddysprop247


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owlet

It helps me modify my behavior into healthier lines. I have a tendency to beat myself up for the tiniest mistakes, and it's something I have a very hard time letting go of. So, when I've done something that warrants punishment, my Master is able to take the burden of guilt and direct it into the punishment. I'm able to focus on serving the terms of the punishment with as much grace as possible, instead of beating myself up over it. When the punishment is over, it's much easier for me to let it go and move on than it would have been otherwise.


yes, this exactly. like you i beat myself up for the smallest of mistakes, things that most other people probably wouldn't give a second thought to, or would easily brush off and move on. i start feeling like a failure, like a huge disappointment, like i can't do anything right, etc. punishment directs that energy and focus to a productive place, and it seals the door shut on the issue.

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RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic - 12/6/2010 5:20:14 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

yes, this exactly. like you i beat myself up for the smallest of mistakes, things that most other people probably wouldn't give a second thought to, or would easily brush off and move on. i start feeling like a failure, like a huge disappointment, like i can't do anything right, etc. punishment directs that energy and focus to a productive place, and it seals the door shut on the issue.


Greetings daddysprop,

I was guilty of the same and merciless. In time I realized it was neither my right nor responsibility to inflict self flagellation and I eventually stopped. But it wasn't easy and there are moments when I'm apt to return to familiar behavior when things go awry. Accepting responsibility for my actions has been drilled into me from infancy and I naturally gravitate towards men and dynamics that mimic what's comfortably familiar. Unlike the past, I feel a greater slight if I'm allowed to behave inappropriately without any address. It's akin to the leader falling down on the job. If He permitted that to continue I would feel very discombobulated and utterly confused. I relate correction with structure and I appreciate a Man that runs a tight ship.

Namaste,

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic - 12/6/2010 8:21:34 PM   
Kana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
yes, this exactly. like you i beat myself up for the smallest of mistakes, things that most other people probably wouldn't give a second thought to, or would easily brush off and move on. i start feeling like a failure, like a huge disappointment, like i can't do anything right, etc. punishment directs that energy and focus to a productive place, and it seals the door shut on the issue.

Namaste,

~porcelaine



I see punishment (A word I abhor by the way, how bout behavioral modification or corrective measures or performance enhancement initiatives?) as a means for her to be granted absolution, to be freed from the personal disappointment and guilt many subs/slaves feel when they have performed below standards. Seen in this light, punishment is cathartic, an experience which allows for sins (And I use this in the oldest meanings, as an archery term that means to miss the mark)to be cleansed and absolution given.
Think about how many vanilla relationships there are where people hold grudges or carry anger or past mistakes are thrown in the partners faces? Think about prior interactions where you didn't know where the other party stood, how they felt, were they angry, disappointed, upset, forgiving? In BDSM, at least the way I do it, none of these worries exist.
She exists in a state of grace. When she errs, corrective measures are applied, absolution granted (And by this I mean it is as if the offense never occurred, it will not be thrown in her face at a later date or brought up again unless she repeats the abberant behavior) and our relationship can continue smoothly along, following its intended path.


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HST

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RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic - 12/6/2010 8:43:30 PM   
daddysprop247


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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

It's akin to the leader falling down on the job. If He permitted that to continue I would feel very discombobulated and utterly confused. I relate correction with structure and I appreciate a Man that runs a tight ship.

Namaste,

~porcelaine



greetings porcelaine...we are in agreement on the above but i would take it a step further and say that if i the Man i am tethered to does not run a tight ship, i may as well be lost at sea.

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RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic - 12/7/2010 2:01:23 AM   
ranja


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nineveh

I can't imagine instituting a punishment dynamic after 20 years of marriage.  Congratulations to you for managing it, it seems like a drastic change in the dynamic that would end up with me being divorced.



Thanks for the congratulations and i am rather glad we managed too... as before we were heading for the rocks... extremely slowly... i don't know that we actually would have split up but it would most definitely have been a bitter and desolate union...
He does not beat me to death... i suppose many people might think a punishment dynamic means that when you make a mistake you will be flogged mercilessly... till there is blood... it does not mean that for us
Like Focus says: for every action there is a reaction...
I have always  been quite 'good' at all sorts of actions, but my Husband has not felt the same freedom with His natural reactions as some of these reactions to my actions might be considered *not done*, out of line or weird... (never mind that my actions might be considered these things aswell) since we have finally squared it between us that to me these reactions are in fact quite acceptable and often actually desired (and usually not in a sexual way) our marriage is quite on track and much happier... better late than never

ETA... if He would have started with the punishment when we were younger i might not have appreciated His attitude and it might well have landed us in the divorce courts... i have been rather too proud for my own good... and also some people can only make changes when they have the maturity to see the bigger picture.

< Message edited by ranja -- 12/7/2010 2:11:53 AM >

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RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic - 12/7/2010 8:20:33 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

It doesn't work for me. I prefer a win/win solution where we solve the problem. Punishment is the least effective way of changing things. In fact, I will go so far as to say that it is a mark of a lazy dominant. It takes a lot more work to teach someone to succeed than it does to order them to do something and punish them for not knowing how. Or for not having explained something and expecting them to be a mind reader.
I am going to disagree with this on several levels, Des.
First, I don't agree that punishment is the least effecftive way of changing things.  It may well be the least effective way for YOU...but it has already been stated that it is effective for others. 

Second.  The mark of a lazy dominant?  Or the mark of someone who doesn't like being challenged by one who has agreed to yield?
There are infinite ways for a submissive to earn punishment...as infinite as the variety of D/s dynamics out there.  Myself...like Focus, I don't like to punish either.  I prefer discipline and there is a difference between the two.  Discipline is used to correct a problem that no matter how many times it is gone through in discussion and explained to the submissive, it continues to occur.  Now then, many say that this COULD be the sign of something deeper.  Yes, it could... a sign of dissatisfaction within the relationship for some reason, etc..  But, if that is NOT what has come out of the discussion...if what has come out is that the submissive felt lazy that day or the submissive did not want to yield to something for no good reason that she can offer, then discipline is in order.  Some might see discipline as punishment.  I don't.  I see discipline as analyzing the problem, utilizing some sort of tools to make the submissive aware of why her way of doing things disrupted the relationship and focus on the fact that she agreed I was in charge and that she CHOSE to agree to yield.  It is not always pleasant but it HAS been effective.  Punishment...as I have noted before...generally tends to be for things much more severe and potentially destructive to the dynamic, if not the relationship.  Because it is reserved for those areas, it is used very judiciously and ONLY after much, MUCH communication has taken place.  Because of the discipline...and as Focus said, a punishment dynamic in place...I do consider those D/s relationships I've entered into as having a punishment dynamic.  Of the 4 I've had, all were such.  Ironically enough, it was the one where it was least in place where I had the most trouble.  However, I would quickly point out that it was not the sole cause of problems within the dynamic lest anyone think that I am saying that not having it was the major problem.

Third:  It takes more work to teach someone to succeed and do things right.  Yeah...it can.  Especially when the submissive is of the nature where yielding is not all that easy for her, even when the relationship is solid and has been in place for awhile.  There ARE differing levels of submission and I understand that.  But for me, a dynamic in which the dominant has to fear/wonder/be uncertain whether or not this instance of exerting control will be another time when the submissive bucks and threatens to walk away can come about not only/not just because he is not a good teacher or because he is not patient BUT because she is not a good student and is unwilling...not at that time or not all the time but in that instance...to yield and has nothing to dread (for lack of a better word) because there are no consequences...other than the dominant's displeasure/hurt/anger which has been rendered impotent by those same lack of consequences.  I am not saying that allllllllll submissives in a non-punishment dynamic are this way.  I am stating that some are.  And it does not always indicate a lack of proper dominance by the dominant in question.  I too prefer a win-win solution...with compromise and a newly-reached level of togetherness.  But it just doesn't always happen that way.

quote:

I just read a post on another site where the sub was punished for anticipatory service when the dom had never told her not to do it. That's wrong. If he couldn't be bothered to tell her never to make a suggestion or try to be helpful, that's his fault when she didn't know it. He just punished her, he never explained what she should do in the future. ;/quote]I agree.  If a dominant has not made himself clear, then his choice to punish is a cover-up of his own culpability.


quote:

Nor is punishment an excuse for breaking hard limits, which is also seen a lot.
Heartily agree.  But that is not what is being spoken of here, is it?  Or did I miss something? 

quote:

Over the years, the problems we've had where he mainly could have punished have been always due to miscommunication. He didn't explain fully or my understanding of what he said was entirely different than what he used by the term. He asked me during the baseball playoffs to look up when his team was playing. I responded that it was dark that night, meaning a Broadway term referring to no performance. He got upset believing it was blacked out in our area. Should I have been punished for not understanding what he meant?
Not punished.  I would ask if the Man was used to using Broadway terms to describe other things besides sports.  Why not just say when they were playing?  But it certainly isn't a thing where I see punishment OR discipline as being in order.

quote:

The other thing that he could sometimes punish me for is for being short tempered. However, invariably I get that way because I'm thirsty, hungry or overtired. Should I be punished for him not stopping for lunch? Punished because my blood sugar dropped? Not in my book. Here we keep an eye on the time and now schedule in breaks so that this won't happen.
If you have scheduled in breaks so that it doesn't happen...as you have both seen the unpleasantness that results.  So, if those breaks are scheduled...and you have said that you would follow them, then why does it happen?  Not yielding on your part or just a human mistake?  In a dynamic with me...Again, no punishment would be called for.  Communication about why it happened would be.  Discipline if the reason why was due to a reason that could be seen as deliberate...i.e., making something more important than the consequences of disrupting us.


(in reply to DesFIP)
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RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic - 12/7/2010 2:56:34 PM   
heartfeltsub


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Status: offline 		Knight,

Thank you for your reply. It does seem to be that a great many get a very cathartic release from having a punishment dynamic, as many of the following posters mentioned.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

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RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic - 12/7/2010 3:02:13 PM   
heartfeltsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

A punishment dynamic came with the relationship I entered.  The only adjustment I can think of is the benevolence in his punishments, in comparison to my past experience.  I am rarely punished, and when I am it is part of an overall process of talking, uncovering what occurred and why, more talking, discovering prevention of a repeat, love, more talking, reassurance, understanding, and closure.

It's simply part of an overall resolution process for us.  I've never asked why he prefers a punishment dynamic - I've never felt a need to ask.  The resolution process just flows naturally, and the very few times we've embarked on it, punishment has been part of it.  I can't say I've ever made him angry, so anger hasn't been part of it.

I always find it interesting, what people have to say about punishment dynamics. Understandably, some function better in a non punishment dynamic and some function better in a punishment dynamic. Why disparage the other? There's a superior attitude by some folks who do not thrive in a punishment dynamic that I just don't get.

In any case, re: the follow up question about fear, I do not fear his punishment. I don't like when I've disappointed him, and I'd feel that way whether or not he punished me.  His punishments are nothing I need to fear.  I don't fear any part of our relationship.


NuevaVida,

Thank you for your reply. There are two points, (the parts that i bolded) that i would like to comment on. One is the use of the word benevolence in regards to punishment, that is not usually a correlation that is made. i know that you used it in a comparative terms, but i still found the use of the word very interesting.

The second and i hope i haven't come off this way, is even though the idea of having a punishment dynamic, in the past caused me fear, i hope nothing i have said gives the impression that i think one is better than another across the board. i have found most of the responses, very helpful and thought provoking.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

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RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic - 12/7/2010 3:35:12 PM   
heartfeltsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

this. i don't get the wild assumptions made about punishment dynamics so many make...that a punishment is implemented in lieu of adult discussion and problem-solving, for instance. nor do i get the way so many seem to look down upon punishment dynamics. different relationship models work best for different individuals, none is superior to any other.

to answer the OP...what do i get out of it? i get the confirmation of his care and concern over me, my behavior and growth, of his active role in those areas. i get the reminder that i can always do better, that i can achieve more than i ever believed possible. i get closure, which is absolutely necessary and would be impossible for me otherwise. and while this last may not be typical of relationships with punishment dynamics, for us fear is an important element as well. it's important that i fear my Master just enough to keep me on my toes and mindful of the fact that he is Lord and Master of my universe. so i fear his retribution, and this fear helps keep me worshipful and reverential.



*snipped for brevity. First of all, thank you for your reply, daddysprop. i seriously debated about replying because of some of the discussions you and i have had in the past about your relationship with your Master and how healthy it may or may not be, which is not a discussion that i am trying to start again. There was however one point that i wanted to address with you and that was your comment about fear. Why, for you, is it important for you to fear your Master? Most have stated that they do not fear their Masters, that fear has no part in how they see the punishment dynamic that is part of their relationships, so you bringing up fear prompted that thought.

Thank you again for replying,
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

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RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic - 12/7/2010 3:40:52 PM   
heartfeltsub


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Status: offline 		i also wanted to thank all of the posters, there was a very interesting interchange between NuevaVida, Daddysprop, Lally and several others that was very enlightening and i thank you all for sharing those thoughts.

heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

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RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic - 12/7/2010 3:44:54 PM   
graceadieu


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From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I'm glad you asked this! It's something I've wondered about myself, since it's not something I've ever done and tend to have "views" about - I'm much of the same mind as DesFIP, and a stern verbal reminder or a few disciplinary swats to focus my attention are really all that is needed/done in our home. So I found others' responses interesting and I think I understand the punishment dynamic a bit better now, even if it's still not something I think I'd go for.

(in reply to heartfeltsub)
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RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic - 12/7/2010 3:47:54 PM   
heartfeltsub


Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline 		(Smiling) i am glad that i am not the only one to have learned something from this thread, i am glad that you are enjoying it. Thank you for your reply.

heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

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RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic - 12/7/2010 3:48:16 PM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
Oh for cryin' out loud...!

So if the girl deliberately misbehaves (not her fault according to you), the only recourse a dom has is....? Stamp feet? Walk off in a huff? Good ol sulk? Twiddle thumbs? Re-invent the wheel?


Another, non-punishment, option is to sit her down and have a serious discussion about whether she's actually interested in submitting to you and the future of your relationship if she continues to deliberately disobey.

But please don't take that as me trying to judge you or criticize your methods. You should do what works best for you and yours.

(in reply to Focus50)
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RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic - 12/7/2010 3:54:24 PM   
kyslave16


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Status: offline 		well of course some subs/slaves misbehave in HOPES of the punishment.

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RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic - 12/8/2010 8:59:59 PM   
Focus50


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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
Oh for cryin' out loud...!

So if the girl deliberately misbehaves (not her fault according to you), the only recourse a dom has is....? Stamp feet? Walk off in a huff? Good ol sulk? Twiddle thumbs? Re-invent the wheel?


Another, non-punishment, option is to sit her down and have a serious discussion about whether she's actually interested in submitting to you and the future of your relationship if she continues to deliberately disobey.

But please don't take that as me trying to judge you or criticize your methods. You should do what works best for you and yours.


Well yes; any punishment is serious enough to be followed up with discussion of what just took place. Generally just after I've cooled down. It's not like I'd wanna be punishing her every few weeks - that wouldn't be good for the overall relationship.

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

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RE: What do you get out of having a punishment dynamic - 12/8/2010 9:09:39 PM   
Focus50


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From: Newcastle, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyslave16

well of course some subs/slaves misbehave in HOPES of the punishment.


Yes but that's an unhealthy dynamic that needs to be corrected. In essence, that's an example of the submissive controlling the relationship through negative behaviour - the tail wagging the dog. Punishing the sub in that instance (presumably some form of corporal punishment is implied) amounts to rewarding her for behaving badly.

It's playing up to get attention (and subs are attention junkies) - which is why I punish through the denial of attention altogether.

Congrats on your maiden post; and welcome! :)

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to kyslave16)
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