Emotional Transparency and Honesty (Full Version)

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heartfeltsub -> Emotional Transparency and Honesty (12/4/2010 12:01:40 PM)

A Dominant friend of mine recently went through the end of his D/s relationship and the events that led up to the relationship's dissolution prompted a question. Although i am of the opinion that whenever a relationship ends, that there is responsibility for the relationship ending on both sides, one of the things that seemed to lead to breakup was the s-type's idea of what submission meant. Please understand before i ask my question, that i was and am good friends with both parties involved.

It seemed to me, looking at the relationship and based on what the s-type said to me that part of how she saw submitting was not saying anything when something was really bothering her, just doing what the Dominant wanted her to do and to use her words "pretending" everything was fine. Having spoken at length with my Dominant friend, he was under the impression that everything was fine, that she was blossoming in the changes that he had made in the relationship.

So my question is this: To me, part of submission, the part that feeds me the most, is in fact doing something when it is difficult or hard for me. However where does that part end (the sucking it up and obeying even when i might not want to) and where does it become a lie that can end up destroying a relationship? Knowing my friend, had he known how troubled she was, he would have talked with her about it, maybe changed somethings until she was more comfortable, etc., but he didn't know because she kept telling him things were good and acting like things were good. Now she says, she was just saying what it is she thought he wanted to hear.

So where is the line between being obedient when it is hard, and not being emotional transparent and honest so the the Dominant has all the information that He or She needs to run the relationship? How do you handle that if you are an s-type? What do you require of your s-types if you are a D-type?

Hopefully these questions make sense and i look forward to your responses,
heartfelt



KnightofMists -> RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty (12/4/2010 12:23:15 PM)

simple... there is no line.....

One can "Obey with grace"..... but obeying with grace need not be in conflict with "Communicate with transparency"

I do require obedience with grace. "sucked it up and do it" is not unheard of in this house. but suck it up and do it doesn't mean shut up and not share your thougths and feelings constructively with me.

"Communicate with transparency" is extremely important. It is important that I not only listening to what I want to hear... but can constructively listen to those things that I don't want to hear. I can't make the decisions for the best of the family without this key concept in place. In my opinion this is what was lacking in your friends relationship. He was in fact... NOT aware of all the information necessary to make the best possible decisions. some submissives seem to have this concept that they need to be martyrs in their service. But... holding back information does and will undermine the authority in a relationship. Your friend was MAKING the decision to suck it up.... but... the quesiton is... did the Dominant want that in the first place? Believe me... when my girls are going to be sucking it up.... I will know it...

again... I see no line... just two blocks important in building a strong foundation to such a dynamic.



crazyml -> RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty (12/4/2010 12:28:29 PM)

I suppose you could say that even in this case the "responsibility" for the failure of the relationship belongs to both of them - It's not a "fault" thing necessarily, but there's a sense that there was a "wavelength" or "connection" problem. On one hand, you could say that he should have been more sensitive to her needs and wants and on the other you might say she ought to have been more transparent.

I've had relationships where I've expected my sub to do things that she didn't want to do, but I've relied upon my understanding of her not to push it beyond her limits, and to know how to reward her for her obedience.

But, I suppose I should add that I'm not, personally, into the whole 24/7 in-role always-on type of relationship, and it's not just that I encourage subs to be open about their feelings I tend only to select subs that would be open about their feelings/needs/wants even if I didn't want to hear it!

The two lines that caught me in the op were -


quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub
Having spoken at length with my Dominant friend, he was under the impression that everything was fine, that she was blossoming in the changes that he had made in the relationship.


quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

but he didn't know because she kept telling him things were good and acting like things were good. Now she says, she was just saying what it is she thought he wanted to hear.



I'll admit that my knee-jerk reaction was "Stupid bitch, so essentially she fucked up the relationship by lying to her Dom"

But I know that these things are more complicated than that. I just have the sense that these two people weren't made for eachother - and that hopefully with the additional learning that this experience will have brought to both of them, their next partners will be more suitable.

I worry though that the sub may have a harder time finding a suitable partner then the dom. The dom just needs to find a sub with enough confidence to express herself - especially when asked. I've a fear that the sub may still be searching for a god like dom with the ability to read her mind. I hope that she learns from this that "pretending to be happy" is one of the very worst things you can do if you really want a relationship to last.




Awareness -> RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty (12/4/2010 12:29:08 PM)

  There's a gulf between obedience and deception.  The scenario you describe sounds odd because D/s generally requires the trust dynamic to function well if it's to be successful at all.

I think the key word here is "acting".  Play is one thing, but hiding aspects of your deepest self - including your own unhappiness - is something else entirely.  In fact, I'm rather bewildered that he had no inkling that something was up.  Either she's one hell of an actress or his empathic sense needs some fine tuning. 

Personally, I require honesty and integrity.



heartfeltsub -> RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty (12/4/2010 12:30:41 PM)

Thank you Knight for your response. Your response is similar to how i view things or think submission "should" be (my opinion). There are times that i have to just suck it up and obey, but i feel it is my responsibility to let my D-type know that obeying is a struggle at the moment (usually when it is dealing with an emotional issue) . This i pass on, merely for informational purposes, not to get him to change the directive, but rather so that he will know what is going on with me internally. However i know many s-types don't view it that way.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt



littlewonder -> RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty (12/4/2010 12:33:30 PM)

Master knows me well enough to know when something is bothering me. I don't hold back very well and I'm a terrible actress. Emotional transparency and obedience are both requirements with him. If I hold back anything there's hell to pay. How can he know what's best for me if I'm holding back and not telling him what needs to be told? There are times when I will ask to wait to tell him since I don't feel the time is right and sometimes he'll allow it and other times he'll deny it. It's not always easy to tell him what I'm thinking...sometimes it feels like the hardest thing I've ever had to do but eventually I tell him. I have to.

If our relationship ended because I wouldn't talk to him I would feel like a huge failure for destroying us and if he did not know when something was wrong I would feel as if he wasn't paying attention at all.



heartfeltsub -> RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty (12/4/2010 12:33:31 PM)

Thank you for your reply Crazy and knowing them both, i agree with what you said. i have had to fight the urge to say she messed it, even when she is saying that about herself. i know she is in counseling to try to work on past issues and i hope she heals enough so that in the next relationship she has she can be honest with both herself (which i really believe is part of the problem) and her Dominant.

Thank you again,
heartfelt



Focus50 -> RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty (12/4/2010 12:38:51 PM)

Seems to me the relationship failed the communication "test". And as you've said, there are faults on both sides....

Her (sub):
Lying by omission is still lying.

Him (dom):
Stress is the bane of submissives and any dominant should be observant enough to know all is not well with the one they own and are responsible for. Which makes me wonder where his priorities are focused.... He has not provided a healthy environment for her to thrive.

Them:
The building of trust - for some reason his sub feels uncomfortable and incapable of being truthful with him = failed communication = relationship cancer.

Focus.



lovingpet -> RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty (12/4/2010 12:57:30 PM)

I am in agreement with Knights and others.  I have done both at the same time quite often.  I have told him that what he wanted from me was difficult for me but that, for him, I would do it.  I didn't promise success.  I couldn't.  I didn't act like I was enthusiastically on board with it because I wasn't.  I told him the truth.  I also gave him my full effort and trust.  Most times we were able to do really well with whatever it was.  Other times, we just managed to get through the whole ordeal intact.  That's the key word though...intact.  We were still a couple, still respected and loved each other, and still retained our place in the relationship.  The honesty was necessary for him to manage the situation appropriately. 

I think we would endure far more disasters if I didn't or didn't think I could come to him and let him know things weren't quite sweetness and light.  Knowledge of one's partner goes a long way, for sure, but it does not cover the irretractable  fact of each person's responsibility for the health of the relationship, themselves, and their partner.  I have a duty to him to let him know when I feel a tremor or see the train hurtling down the tracks.  He may have already been aware of these things and even factored them in to his plan, but it is not my job to know that.

I am allowed to be afraid, usure, or even flat out repulsed by any command he gives or expectation he has.  I can hate what we are doing.  Negative emotions and responses are not the issue.  Displaced trust, inconsistency, and laziness are.  So many problems come up in all walks of life when people try to say or be the way they think they are supposed to be in order to fit in.  The problems come from the very arrogant assumption that one can determine what someone else thinks is appropriate and then acting on unsubstantiated information.  This girl's dominant never said that he expected her to fake a smile and pretend everything was okay.

Before it seems like I am laying all of this at the submissive's feet, I do think you can expect people to fill in the blanks when you don't do that for them.  The OP didn't mention if or to what extent the dominant ever attempted to convey to her what HIS views were on submission and what it was to be HIS submissive.  I can only guess that the lessons were either absent or not enough. 

Then again, she may have been stubbornly clinging to her own perspective and not submitted her expectations of herself to his control.  That seems to be one of the hardest things to do.  Accepting that the values and worth I attach to something are different than his and then allowing his value system to take precedence is hard.  I like to be right.  What can I say?  Regardless, either he needed to give her his views and expect those to be the final say on the matter or she needed to ask in the first place and then accept his answers.  As always, it's communicate...honest communication that was missing here and both were likely to blame.  It's a sad thing really.  I kind of find myself wishing they'd give each other another shot with their lessons learned.  Maybe this time it would grow into the something beautiful that he thought he had and she was pretending to have.  One can only hope.

lovingpet  



heartfeltsub -> RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty (12/4/2010 1:09:04 PM)

Thank you for your reply, Awareness. i know that you don't know him, but having been his friend for over 6 years and his submissive for 3, almost 4, i know that he is very aware of how others feel (as a general rule). i believe because she is (in my opinion) lying to herself and not sure of what she really wants, she pushed down her thoughts and feelings for a while until they erupted because that is what she thought she had to do to submit. i have heard many people who say they are D-types tell their s-types to not question, to not argue, etc. And while i do not argue inside a D/s relationship and i obey, i also believe that a person needs to (a) know themselves enough to know when something that is belng asked of them is wounding them emotionally and (b) be strong enough to allow his or her Dominant to see inside to where they are hurting or are weak.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt



heartfeltsub -> RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty (12/4/2010 1:10:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Master knows me well enough to know when something is bothering me. I don't hold back very well and I'm a terrible actress. Emotional transparency and obedience are both requirements with him. If I hold back anything there's hell to pay. How can he know what's best for me if I'm holding back and not telling him what needs to be told? There are times when I will ask to wait to tell him since I don't feel the time is right and sometimes he'll allow it and other times he'll deny it. It's not always easy to tell him what I'm thinking...sometimes it feels like the hardest thing I've ever had to do but eventually I tell him. I have to. If our relationship ended because I wouldn't talk to him I would feel like a huge failure for destroying us and if he did not know when something was wrong I would feel as if he wasn't paying attention at all.



Thank you for your reply. The part that i bolded is so true, to be emotionally honest and vulnerable is one of the hardest things to do, but so very important.

heartfelt



LadyPact -> RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty (12/4/2010 1:24:07 PM)

I don't especially term this as emotional transparency.  Instead, I would put this under the "full disclosure" tab.

In our case, I do expect clip to obey and submit to My will.  The caveat to that is, if I don't have all of the information (what he should be communicating to Me regarding his feelings on a matter) My will may be different depending on all of the contributing factors.  That doesn't mean that every time he says that he doesn't like something that I'm automatically going to say he doesn't have to do it.  Nothing would be further from the truth. 

I suppose it's the difference that I see between instantaneous submission, rather than the process of deepening submission that I prefer.  I tend to see it in steps, rather than a leap.  I'm the designer of the size and length of the steps as we go along.  Hopefully, in My decisions to do so, it will be more gradual so that he isn't overwhelmed or unhappy with what is expected of him.

I'm not sure if that made sense.  I don't seem to be conveying Myself well today.



DesFIP -> RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty (12/4/2010 1:37:23 PM)

The line is wherever he drew it. If he told her he wanted obedience at any cost, and if his actions or speech were less than welcoming if she ever said that she disliked something, then he got what he taught her to give. Unfortunately lots of people claim they want honesty but really act like little kids when they hear something critical. Dominants who do that teach the sub not to speak up. If this is what happened, and you as an outsider won't know because if he does this, he won't even admit it to himself, then he should expect his next relationship to end the same way.

But I find this is more a gender thing than a d/s one. Men have an amazing ability to not listen to a woman's words, just her actions. If she had walked out before, he might have been willing to listen. However women usually stay and when they walk, then it's too late.



porcelaine -> RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty (12/4/2010 1:41:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

So where is the line between being obedient when it is hard, and not being emotional transparent and honest so the the Dominant has all the information that He or She needs to run the relationship? How do you handle that if you are an s-type? What do you require of your s-types if you are a D-type?


Greetings heartfelt,

In my opinion it really depends on the parties involved and how the dominant handles the truth. In an ideal situation one could be transparent and allow the other party to take the information and make the necessary adjustments as he deems appropriate. However, there are some that prefer the ideal versus its less than sparkling cousin. Truth is fine as long as it comes in acceptable packaging that won't ruffle feathers or cast a negative shadow on him. I believe many struggle with this subject and the answer will be different for us all. It boils down to knowing your Keeper and understanding how He ticks.

I was involved with a sadist that delighted in tampering with my emotions. Transparency with him meant something different than it did for someone else. I learned how to give him the truth in the manner he could handle. My attempts to be forthright merely incited his angst and hardship that could have been avoided. Trial and error teach these things. You have to give credence to his character and be honest about his ego too. Many dominants have them (as we all do) and some aren't as balanced in that department as one would prefer. Being able to convey your feelings (even when they're in opposition) in a way that doesn't make him feel threatened or challenged is a reality many confront, though they may only admit it in private discussions with close companions.

I believe the advice you've been given is good. But in my mind a woman should know her Man and make every attempt to learn Him inside and out. When you know the subject you're dealing with it's much easier to anticipate the response because you have tangible events for comparison. Why doesn't this happen? Many have their heads in the clouds or they're busy fantasizing about some ideal exchange rather than opening their eyes to the one they're involved in and taking note how "that" situation works.

There's another factor about transparency that I'd like to mention. In my opinion there are some things that should never be uttered. Words have weight and I must be cognizant of the impact my words can have and if there is nothing constructive in what I'm going to articulate I will refrain from speaking. I check my mindset and make sure I'm not being unnecessarily inflammatory, abrasive, judgmental, stubborn, etc. That doesn't suggest that I can't convey these things with grace, but niceties don't lessen the sting and His feelings are very important to me. In my dealings I look at the collective and ask how we benefit as a whole from what I want to discuss. Sometimes having a little heart to heart with oneself remedies the feelings of discontent. When I bring something to Him I do so with no preconceived notions about what will take place. I've found that the silence you've mentioned often occurs due to perfectionism or a fear of repercussion.

Namaste,

~porcelaine



heartfeltsub -> RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty (12/4/2010 1:48:44 PM)

Thank you for your reply lovingpet. Knowing them both, having spent a great deal of time with both of them (moreso with him as i have known him longer and was at one time his submissive, now just his best friend), i know that they talked a great deal about his expectations and needs, her expectations and needs. And i know that he adjusted his style of dominance to try to meet more of her needs (which seemed to be for stricter control) and she thanked him for doing so, but i don't know if she ever answered for herself the question that i put to her once which was what do you want a Dominant or a kinky boyfriend.

i know that she struggled, mostly because of her past relationship with thinking that as a submissive it was her place to shut up and obey, that her thoughts were not important. That is NOT how my friend dealt with her, but rather the relationship that she was in before him. He tried to get her to talk to him, thought she was being honest with him, but as i said, in this particular instance, i am not sure if she just wasn't being honest with herself.

i guess part of my question remains, how does one teach that while yes, i want you to obey and not argue with me, i also want to know when something that i am asking of you is really hard for you. How does one teach that balance, especially to someone who has been wounded by life?

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt



heartfeltsub -> RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty (12/4/2010 1:52:38 PM)

Actually that made perfect sense to me LP. Thank you for your reply. i personally see full disclosure and emotional transparency as the same thing. And i agree wholeheartedly that they are key to a Dominant's ability to effectively lead. i also wholeheartedly concur that just because something is difficult and the submissive doesn't like it, doesn't mean that it "shouldn't" occur, but the Dominant needs to know the submissive's mind set.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt



heartfeltsub -> RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty (12/4/2010 1:57:44 PM)

Thank you for your reply Porcelaine. i really loved what you said in the last paragraph. i am a strong proponent of not only saying things in the right time and place, but also saying things in such a manner as to not deliberately wound someone with our words. In the instance that i am talking about, it is not about my relationship, but someone else's relationship. However i see such things occur far more than they need to, where people don't communicate successfully and relationships blow up because of that. i also have seen, although it was not occuring in the instance that brought the question to mind, where submissives are made to feel that because of their place, they are never allowed to question or complain, etc., so they say what they think the other person wants to hear all under the guise of being submissive.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt



lovingpet -> RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty (12/4/2010 2:04:08 PM)

To me, teaching her when to speak out and when to keep silent is about trust.  She has to trust him to know what he wants in a given situation and provide him what he asks for.  She cannot get away with second guessing what he has said he wants or needs.  She can only go wrong there if he is indecisive and really doesn't have a clue what those wants and needs are.  That doesn't sound to be the case.  Reward creates repetition.  Negative consequences produces aversion.

Additionally, as a how to, my partner removed any and all privacy when we were together.  If he saw a thought flash across my face, he wanted to know what it was and I was to tell him.  There were never closed doors behind which I could release a dirty look or spout a colorful expletive.  I could write anything I wanted, but I know with no uncertainty now that he WILL read them.  Every word I place here, on other sites, in letters (including ones I don't even send...yeah that one was new), or anywhere else is under his scrutiny.  I don't have private intellectual and emotional space.  Somewhere along the line he came to own that too.  The smart way to play hide and seek has always been to eliminate the hiding places.  That's exactly what he did and we communicate better and are closer for it.

lovingpet



porcelaine -> RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty (12/4/2010 2:39:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Thank you for your reply Porcelaine. i really loved what you said in the last paragraph. i am a strong proponent of not only saying things in the right time and place, but also saying things in such a manner as to not deliberately wound someone with our words. In the instance that i am talking about, it is not about my relationship, but someone else's relationship. However i see such things occur far more than they need to, where people don't communicate successfully and relationships blow up because of that. i also have seen, although it was not occuring in the instance that brought the question to mind, where submissives are made to feel that because of their place, they are never allowed to question or complain, etc., so they say what they think the other person wants to hear all under the guise of being submissive.


Greetings heartfelt,

The problem in the situation you outlined was the subordinate making a decision on what was appropriate without the knowledge or consultation of the Keeper. Whatever ideas she may have crafted on her own weren't substantiated or supported by him. She wasn't cognizant of the requisite checks and balances to make sure she was moving in accordance to his will, but trusted in the ideas she crafted and carried on. As unfortunate as the outcome is she isn't the first nor the last to do so.

The guise of submission that your friend was adhering to wasn't appropriate for her situation. She undoubtedly encountered the philosophy elsewhere and took it as gospel. However, getting to that place takes time and internal fortitude to plow through the things that inhibit that level of trust and communication. It isn't something most enter into at the onset, at least not the people I've encountered that have long standing successful relationships. Rather than focus on the guise I would simply address it as her taking an idea and running with it without checking in with her dominant to make certain they were on the same page. As for where he erred, that isn't something she can remedy, but she can learn from her mistakes to make future events more favorable.

Admittedly I'm a big proponent for honoring the chain. As such, I don't believe in looking for answers outside of my dynamic. I have conversations with my friends because I'm single, but the moment I'm partnered those discussions come to a halt. All the extra advice that occurs without His knowledge and/or approval will inevitably lead to diverging trains of thought running through a minefield that He owns. While I'm aware of the risks and differences of opinion on the subject it is my sincerest belief that a house cannot have two Masters. If I've decided to place myself within His hands and trust in His leadership that's what I need to do.

The bigger question in all of this is why the ideology wasn't abandoned? If she encountered it prior to ownership that suggests the new situation didn't usher in a change in thinking and behavior. If it occurred after its inception one must query why she relied on outside opinions rather than those of her Keeper? What you're discussing happens a lot. In fact, one could say most of the questions being presented on the Internet by individuals in relationships encompass this in some fashion. Too many cooks always spoil the pot. [;)]

Namaste,

~porcelaine



MasterFireMaam -> RE: Emotional Transparency and Honesty (12/4/2010 2:57:39 PM)

It is "sucking up and obeying" AFTER the emotions and thoughts have been expressed and the Master still expects obedience, even though the slave doesn't like it. Its becomes a lie of omission if "pretending" is involved in any way, in Our opinion.

Master Fire



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