The Failure of Conservatism, Pt. 2 (Full Version)

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AnimusRex -> The Failure of Conservatism, Pt. 2 (12/4/2010 2:27:11 PM)

I had argued previously that conservatism has failed, in that (at least in its current political form) is incapable, even unwilling, to provide broad based middle class prosperity. It can't "deliver the goods", but only indulge in tribal warfare and power lust.

The modern American conservative movement- defined as the Fox News/ Limbaugh/ Palin brand- has also failed in a deeper and more profound way- it has actually become a mirror image of its archenemy, the Marxists.

The original conservative movement after WWII was founded by people like Russell Kirk and Wm. F Buckley. They rose in reaction to the Marxists, who put forward the idea that there was a perfect System, a Grand Unified Theory of politics that could answer everything. The Marxists imagined a world in which there was no private secotr, in which everything was held public and in common.

The conservative movement rose to defend the notion of a mixed economy, that the public sector, while important, also needed a private sector.

But more importantly, they criticized and rejected the idea of a Grand Theory of Everything, they argued that we should embrace the natural complexity of society, and be cautious and skeptical of radical change and triumphalist claims. They both sought a careful balance between the two poles of freedom on one hand, and civic order on the other.

Kirk, for example, wrote "Being neither a religion nor an ideology, the body of opinion termed conservatism possesses no Holy Writ and no Das Kapital to provide dogmata."

Today's conservative movement actually rejects that- the current conservative movement is emphatically triumphalist, and argues for a complete dismantling of the public sphere, and holds the Free Market as a Holy Writ, a dogma to be pursued at all costs.

Examples of this would be the case in Tennessee where a community had privatized the Fire Department, which stood by and watched while a man's house burned down; or the cases where people are allowed to die like dogs, simply for lack of money. Resonable people find these things abhorrent, but conservatives find them acceptable, the price to be paid for faithfullness to "Free Market principles".

This fervent embrace of the Free Market fundamentalism is actually a contradiction of the principle of a civil and moral order in society- the conservative movement that originally embraced the Judeo-Christian doctrines of charity and social responsibililty, now has as its folk hero a man who stood in front of wealthy money-changers, and snarled that he didn't "wanna pay the mortgages of losers".

The original conservatives placed faith and reason side by side; faith gave rise to moral values, while reason explained economic principles. Conservatives were hppy to modify economic ideas, depending on evidence and date; that is to say, they agreed that taxes and spending should go up or down, depending on the needs of the economy; but the modern conservatives embrace a cult-like orthodoxy, where economic ideas such as supply side economics are gospel, and must be adhered to without question- even when their own creators have renounced them.

This cultish faith mimics the fratricidal wars of the Soviet Marxists, in their zeal to enforce orthodox thought and cast out nonbelivers- Note the fervor for "purity" in conservative circles, the fondness for ideological purges of errant thought.

The conservative movement has lost its bearings; Conservative British blogger Andrew Sullivan said that watching his American counterparts devolve into Tea Party-ism is like watching a favorite cousin go mad, shave his head, and join a cult.




TheHeretic -> RE: The Failure of Conservatism, Pt. 2 (12/4/2010 2:33:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex


The modern American conservative movement- defined as the Fox News/ Limbaugh/ Palin brand- has also failed in a deeper and more profound way- it has actually become a mirror image of its archenemy, the Marxists.




So "conservatism," strictly as you wish to define it.

Carry on then, but do clean up behind the circle jerk.




PeonForHer -> RE: The Failure of Conservatism, Pt. 2 (12/4/2010 2:48:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
This fervent embrace of the Free Market fundamentalism is actually a contradiction of the principle of a civil and moral order in society- the conservative movement that originally embraced the Judeo-Christian doctrines of charity and social responsibililty . . .[snip]


Pundits have been saying that here in the UK ever since Thatcher in the early 1980s.  Some of the most vehement critics have been those traditional conservatives, too. 

Yep.  Once, the main weapon of words here amongst conservatives was that the left is driven by dogma.  Nowadays, it's more the other way around. 




kdsub -> RE: The Failure of Conservatism, Pt. 2 (12/4/2010 2:59:22 PM)

I think you think too much...otherwise the vast majority of Americans don't consider themselves members of any party. Our middle class economic situation is the victim of global competition...Not a damn thing to do with politics.

The Palins and Limpdicks do not represent the majority any more than you do.

Butch




liks2plzlf -> RE: The Failure of Conservatism, Pt. 2 (12/4/2010 6:26:36 PM)

Palin again. Will she ever go away?




Moonhead -> RE: The Failure of Conservatism, Pt. 2 (12/5/2010 8:56:35 AM)

Perhaps when her single parent daughter finally runs out of patience with the sow's double standards and shoots her through the head?




DarkSteven -> RE: The Failure of Conservatism, Pt. 2 (12/5/2010 10:23:52 AM)

AnimusRex, I agree with you about this new movement, but like Rich hinted, don't consider it truly "conservative".  Some of it is genuinely conservative, such as the Tea Party idea about limiting taxes AND spending.  The Limbaugh/Beck/Palin/Coulter crew are a bunch of shills that pander to a mindset by criticizing without actually proposing anything positive.  I wouldn't call them conservatives - to my mind, conservatives have a set ideology and plans for governing.  The talking heads are certainly not liberal, but they have no plan, and no desire or ability to lead.




Musicmystery -> RE: The Failure of Conservatism, Pt. 2 (12/5/2010 10:58:19 AM)

Steven,

Well said.




AnimusRex -> RE: The Failure of Conservatism, Pt. 2 (12/5/2010 3:28:44 PM)

DarkSteven-
I agree that the contemporary "conservative" movement of Limbaugh/ Palin/ Beck is not "conservative" as I used to understand it;

But they have seized control of the name and banner of "conservatism", whether you or I like it or not. Further, they have gained almost absolute control of the Republican party.

What you and I would understand to be "traditional conservatism", as I mentioned in the original post, is nearly non-existant. As others have pointed out, Eisenhower, Goldwater and even Reagan himself would probably not even get past a Republican primary.




DarkSteven -> RE: The Failure of Conservatism, Pt. 2 (12/5/2010 4:00:13 PM)

Well, crap.  That's like stating that a carjacker has earned the title of the car!

Actually, I consider the Tea Party to be the closest thing we have now to true conservatives. Note that they haven't bought into the trickle-down, Laffer curve bull that triggered the tax cuts that supposedly bring us prosperity.  Nor do they have a cowboy , shoot-em-up approach to foreign diplomacy (in fairness, they do not have a cohesive view of the world past our borders).  So, like I said, they seem to have adopted the traditions of conservatism without the neocon insanity.




AnimusRex -> RE: The Failure of Conservatism, Pt. 2 (12/5/2010 5:03:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
Actually, I consider the Tea Party to be the closest thing we have now to true conservatives. Note that they haven't bought into the trickle-down, Laffer curve bull that triggered the tax cuts that supposedly bring us prosperity.  Nor do they have a cowboy , shoot-em-up approach to foreign diplomacy (in fairness, they do not have a cohesive view of the world past our borders).  So, like I said, they seem to have adopted the traditions of conservatism without the neocon insanity.



That hasn't been my experience; The leading Tea Party figures ARE enthusiastically in favor of tax cuts, on the premise that they will lead to expanded revenue. That is the very definition of the Laffer curve/ "supply side" economics.

David Stockman and Bruce Bartlett, who were both influential members of Reagan's first term have both called for raising taxes in order to bring in revenue to close the deficit; but both are ignored and attacked from within the "conservative" movement.

And while the Tea Party hasn't officially taken a position on the foreign wars, this article by Pat Buchanan (a rare isolationist conservative) where he lays out the dilemma facing the Tea Party- namely that making big cuts in government will by definition mean big cuts to Defense, and thereby big cuts in the neocon desire for war. On the other hand, this article notes that 6 in 10 Republicans support the war in Afghanistan.




DomYngBlk -> RE: The Failure of Conservatism, Pt. 2 (12/6/2010 7:03:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

I had argued previously that conservatism has failed, in that (at least in its current political form) is incapable, even unwilling, to provide broad based middle class prosperity. It can't "deliver the goods", but only indulge in tribal warfare and power lust.

The modern American conservative movement- defined as the Fox News/ Limbaugh/ Palin brand- has also failed in a deeper and more profound way- it has actually become a mirror image of its archenemy, the Marxists.

The original conservative movement after WWII was founded by people like Russell Kirk and Wm. F Buckley. They rose in reaction to the Marxists, who put forward the idea that there was a perfect System, a Grand Unified Theory of politics that could answer everything. The Marxists imagined a world in which there was no private secotr, in which everything was held public and in common.

The conservative movement rose to defend the notion of a mixed economy, that the public sector, while important, also needed a private sector.

But more importantly, they criticized and rejected the idea of a Grand Theory of Everything, they argued that we should embrace the natural complexity of society, and be cautious and skeptical of radical change and triumphalist claims. They both sought a careful balance between the two poles of freedom on one hand, and civic order on the other.

Kirk, for example, wrote
"Being neither a religion nor an ideology, the body of opinion termed conservatism possesses no Holy Writ and no Das Kapital to provide dogmata."

Today's conservative movement actually rejects that- the current conservative movement is emphatically triumphalist, and argues for a complete dismantling of the public sphere, and holds the Free Market as a Holy Writ, a dogma to be pursued at all costs.

Examples of this would be the case in Tennessee where a community had privatized the Fire Department, which stood by and watched while a man's house burned down; or the cases where people are allowed to die like dogs, simply for lack of money. Resonable people find these things abhorrent, but conservatives find them acceptable, the price to be paid for faithfullness to "Free Market principles".

This fervent embrace of the Free Market fundamentalism is actually a contradiction of the principle of a civil and moral order in society- the conservative movement that originally embraced the Judeo-Christian doctrines of charity and social responsibililty, now has as its folk hero a
man who stood in front of wealthy money-changers, and snarled that he didn't "wanna pay the mortgages of losers".

The original conservatives placed faith and reason side by side; faith gave rise to moral values, while reason explained economic principles. Conservatives were hppy to modify economic ideas, depending on evidence and date; that is to say, they agreed that taxes and spending should go up or down, depending on the needs of the economy; but the modern conservatives embrace a cult-like orthodoxy, where economic ideas such as supply side economics are gospel, and must be adhered to without question- even when their own creators have renounced them.

This cultish faith mimics the fratricidal wars of the Soviet Marxists, in their zeal to enforce orthodox thought and cast out nonbelivers-
Note the fervor for "purity" in conservative circles, the fondness for ideological purges of errant thought.

The conservative movement has lost its bearings; Conservative British blogger Andrew Sullivan said that watching his American counterparts devolve into Tea Party-ism is like watching a favorite cousin go mad, shave his head, and join a cult.


Well said AnimusRex




cpl4third -> RE: The Failure of Conservatism, Pt. 2 (12/6/2010 2:53:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

DarkSteven-

But they have seized control of the name and banner of "conservatism", whether you or I like it or not. Further, they have gained almost absolute control of the Republican party.




They are also the ones in front of the teevee cameras all the time.  When was the last time Fox News interviewed David Gergen over conservative principles?




peacefulplace -> RE: The Failure of Conservatism, Pt. 2 (12/6/2010 3:46:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

quote:

This fervent embrace of the Free Market fundamentalism is actually a contradiction of the principle of a civil and moral order in society- the conservative movement that originally embraced the Judeo-Christian doctrines of charity and social responsibililty, now has as its folk hero a man who stood in front of wealthy money-changers, and snarled that he didn't "wanna pay the mortgages of losers".


That is what kills me about these so-called Christians who all run to denounce evolution; who do not have the fortitude to stand up to their bretheren and say, "You know what? Evolution is a guiding principle of the science of biology. Now, get over it." Instead, they hoot and holler about "family values" and abortions for none and curing gays, slapping each other on the back in congratulation of being holier than thou. Jesus Christ said, "Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me." So when asshat snarls that he doesn't want to pay the mortgages of losers, I really have to wonder WWJD? Their politics are horrific, but when they also wrap that up in the burrito of being a good Christian, what can you do except shake your head?




tweakabelle -> RE: The Failure of Conservatism, Pt. 2 (12/6/2010 6:21:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

AnimusRex, I agree with you about this new movement, but like Rich hinted, don't consider it truly "conservative".  Some of it is genuinely conservative, such as the Tea Party idea about limiting taxes AND spending.  The Limbaugh/Beck/Palin/Coulter crew are a bunch of shills that pander to a mindset by criticizing without actually proposing anything positive.  I wouldn't call them conservatives - to my mind, conservatives have a set ideology and plans for governing.  The talking heads are certainly not liberal, but they have no plan, and no desire or ability to lead.


For the most part, what you have written seems like common sense to me. But I am a little puzzled by your assertion that there is no "desire" to lead. The media here portrays Palin/Limbaugh etc. and their disciples as very keen in getting their hands on the levers of power. Could you please elaborate or clarify this for me?




willbeurdaddy -> RE: The Failure of Conservatism, Pt. 2 (12/7/2010 7:19:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

Today's conservative movement actually rejects that- the current conservative movement is emphatically triumphalist, and argues for a complete dismantling of the public sphere, and holds the Free Market as a Holy Writ, a dogma to be pursued at all costs.



Once again you demonstrate your profound misunderstanding of or intentional misstatement about "Todays conservative movement". This is 100% wrong.

[/thread]




mnottertail -> RE: The Failure of Conservatism, Pt. 2 (12/7/2010 7:21:06 AM)

and you of course have some special knowledge of what is right, but are not allowed to share it with us, as an itinerant insurance peddler. 




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