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RE: Pascal's Wager - 12/22/2010 10:49:21 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

People are offered better paying jobs all the time

Taking the job is one thing, wanting to keep it after you're in it is another, and actually keeping it is yet a third matter. What circumstances led to the opening? Is there nobody qualified who lives around there, or do they all refuse to work for that company? Just sayin, lotta missing info here. I hope you know the answers.

K.

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RE: Pascal's Wager - 12/22/2010 10:58:16 PM   
Vernon4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

quote:

Here’s a loose variation on Pascal’s Wager posted by a user on this site under the subject “Where is God?” tazzygirl - If its all meaningless, what have we lost by believing?

I hear this all the time from “not religious, but spiritual” people It’s not a literal interpretation, but close enough.

Not sure what my username on a fetish site has to do with the argument.


This what I'd really like to know.

Would you agree that this is a loose variation on Pascal’s Wager posted by a user on this site under the subject “Where is God?”   tazzygirl -  If its all meaningless, what have we lost by believing?  

And...

What does my username on a fetish site have to do with the argument?



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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Pascal's Wager - 12/22/2010 11:03:00 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I would say that the motivations which drive us aren't rational in nature. For instance I doubt that you reached your preference for survival over death rationally. I further suspect that you reached that preference before you were particularly capable of reasoning to a position.

Even though you may have made rational decision to change jobs in order to increase your financial security, if you look into your motivation for desiring financial security I suspect you'll find a non-rational compulsion in there somewhere.



True, I have had an instinct to survive probably since birth. But, I don't simply stop at instinct. I have come to the logical conclusion that it is better to exist than not exist.

My motivation for financial security is directly related to my survival.



V.J. Wukmir (1967) proposed that emotions are this mechanism. Emotion is an immediate answer of the organism that informs about the degree of favorability of the perceived situation. If it seems to favor its survival, the living being experiences a positive emotion (happiness, satisfaction, desire, peace, etc.), and it experiences a negative emotion (sadness, disillusion, sorrow, anguish, etc.) when the situation seems to be unfavorable for its survival. All living beings have this mechanism of emotion which guides them all the time, acting as a compass, to find favorable situations to survive (those which produce positive emotions) and to move away from those unfavorable for survival (which produce negative emotions).

http://www.biopsychology.org/biopsychology/papers/what_is_emotion.htm

The need to survive is well documented to be linked to emotions. Maslows Heirarchy of needs expresses this quite well.

Survival

Nature developed our emotions over millions of years of evolution. As a result, our emotions have the potential to serve us today as a delicate and sophisticated internal guidance system. Our emotions alert us when natural human need is not being met. For example, when we feel lonely, our need for connection with other people is unmet. When we feel afraid, our need for safety is unmet. When we feel rejected, it is our need for acceptance which is unmet.

Decision Making

Our emotions are a valuable source of information. Our emotions help us make decisions. Studies show that when a person's emotional connections are severed in the brain, he can not make even simple decisions. Why? Because he doesn't know how he will feel about his choices.


http://eqi.org/emotions.htm

I dont need to know what your job is. I dont need to know why you moved. Your need to survive and your emotional response to the possibilities are what lead you to your decisions.

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RE: Pascal's Wager - 12/22/2010 11:36:08 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I would say that the motivations which drive us aren't rational in nature. For instance I doubt that you reached your preference for survival over death rationally. I further suspect that you reached that preference before you were particularly capable of reasoning to a position.

Even though you may have made rational decision to change jobs in order to increase your financial security, if you look into your motivation for desiring financial security I suspect you'll find a non-rational compulsion in there somewhere.



True, I have had an instinct to survive probably since birth. But, I don't simply stop at instinct. I have come to the logical conclusion that it is better to exist than not exist.

My motivation for financial security is directly related to my survival.



V.J. Wukmir (1967) proposed that emotions are this mechanism. Emotion is an immediate answer of the organism that informs about the degree of favorability of the perceived situation. If it seems to favor its survival, the living being experiences a positive emotion (happiness, satisfaction, desire, peace, etc.), and it experiences a negative emotion (sadness, disillusion, sorrow, anguish, etc.) when the situation seems to be unfavorable for its survival. All living beings have this mechanism of emotion which guides them all the time, acting as a compass, to find favorable situations to survive (those which produce positive emotions) and to move away from those unfavorable for survival (which produce negative emotions).

http://www.biopsychology.org/biopsychology/papers/what_is_emotion.htm

The need to survive is well documented to be linked to emotions. Maslows Heirarchy of needs expresses this quite well.

Survival

Nature developed our emotions over millions of years of evolution. As a result, our emotions have the potential to serve us today as a delicate and sophisticated internal guidance system. Our emotions alert us when natural human need is not being met. For example, when we feel lonely, our need for connection with other people is unmet. When we feel afraid, our need for safety is unmet. When we feel rejected, it is our need for acceptance which is unmet.

Decision Making

Our emotions are a valuable source of information. Our emotions help us make decisions. Studies show that when a person's emotional connections are severed in the brain, he can not make even simple decisions. Why? Because he doesn't know how he will feel about his choices.


http://eqi.org/emotions.htm

I dont need to know what your job is. I dont need to know why you moved. Your need to survive and your emotional response to the possibilities are what lead you to your decisions.


You must have missed this post of mine on this thread

- All mammals have emotions that help them survive. But I think that emotions are triggered by the brain which is reacting to data. -

Emotions are  tools, but they are not our only tools. They inform the conscious of split second calculations made by the sub conscious.

Let's take this from your post...

Our emotions are a valuable source of information. Our emotions help us make decisions. Studies show that when a person's emotional connections are severed in the brain, he can not make even simple decisions. Why? Because he doesn't know how he will feel about his choices.

I don't  know that we know enough about the brain to say definitively that the reason he can not make even simple decisions is because he doesn't know how he will feel about his choices. We can only say that he can not make even simple decisions. The reason why is speculative.






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RE: Pascal's Wager - 12/22/2010 11:49:20 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

People are offered better paying jobs all the time

Taking the job is one thing, wanting to keep it after you're in it is another, and actually keeping it is yet a third matter. What circumstances led to the opening? Is there nobody qualified who lives around there, or do they all refuse to work for that company? Just sayin, lotta missing info here. I hope you know the answers.

K.



I just used that as an example for Tazzy when he said there's no guarantee of more money.

I moved because of access to more clients. And, yes there are more people going after those clients, but I looked at their work and their ability to sell themselves and compared it to mine. It was all part of the rational calculations I made to reach my decision.


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RE: Pascal's Wager - 12/23/2010 3:20:26 AM   
tazzygirl


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~chuckles

Im sure you wont mind if i take the beliefs of scientists in this matter over yours. I would think after numerous studies on the brain, years of training in psychology and related fields, continuous hours of study and observation... they might know a thing or two about the subject better than you would.

So, sure, go ahead and hide behind your belief that you made that decision without any regard to your emotional state about your financial security. Let me know when you get that medical degree to make your assumption......

quote:

I don't know that we know enough about the brain to say definitively that the reason he can not make even simple decisions is because he doesn't know how he will feel about his choices. We can only say that he can not make even simple decisions. The reason why is speculative.


..... more than something you just pulled out of your .. ahem... to cover it up.

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RE: Pascal's Wager - 12/23/2010 2:32:27 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

It was all part of the rational calculations I made to reach my decision.

I think words like "emotion" and "emotional" drag some baggage into this. I never used them:

Reason can only enumerate factors and their potential consequences; we make decisions based on how we feel about those factors and consequences.

That statement still stands. And as far as I can see it has not been, and cannot be, refuted.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Pascal's Wager - 12/23/2010 2:42:34 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

V.J. Wukmir
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

~chuckles

Im sure you wont mind if i take the beliefs of scientists in this matter over yours. I would think after numerous studies on the brain, years of training in psychology and related fields, continuous hours of study and observation... they might know a thing or two about the subject better than you would.

So, sure, go ahead and hide behind your belief that you made that decision without any regard to your emotional state about your financial security. Let me know when you get that medical degree to make your assumption......

quote:

I don't know that we know enough about the brain to say definitively that the reason he can not make even simple decisions is because he doesn't know how he will feel about his choices. We can only say that he can not make even simple decisions. The reason why is speculative.


..... more than something you just pulled out of your .. ahem... to cover it up.


Do you even know who V.J. Wukmir was? Are his conclusions accepted by the Psychiatric Association? Are his conclusions integrated into any diagnoses published in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders?   All leading scientist who study the brain admit that very little is known about it. Can you explain to me how emotions are severed?   Of course I don’t mind if you take someone else’s conclusions. But, I was hoping to have an intelligent conversation with a person who has formed an opinion through critical thinking.   My emotional reaction to you writing that I pulled my statement out of my ass was anger and I wanted to attack and maybe call you a dumbass. But, I put that emotion aside. I told my subconscious that I was not under a physical attack. That anger was not the appropriate response. To achieve my goal of intellectual discourse it is better for me to try to explain my reasoning.      


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RE: Pascal's Wager - 12/23/2010 4:25:37 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

My emotional reaction to you writing that I pulled my statement out of my ass was anger and I wanted to attack and maybe call you a dumbass. But, I put that emotion aside...

No you didn't. Your post is almost entirely an attack, and you made sure to call her a fucking "dumbass" for good measure.

But I can see now why you think your decisions aren't influenced by your emotions.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/23/2010 4:27:36 PM >

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RE: Pascal's Wager - 12/23/2010 4:36:04 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

My emotional reaction to you writing that I pulled my statement out of my ass was anger and I wanted to attack and maybe call you a dumbass. But, I put that emotion aside...

No you didn't. Your post is almost entirely an attack, and you made sure to call her a fucking "dumbass" for good measure.

But I can see now why you think your decisions aren't influenced by your emotions.

K.




Yes I did. I just pointed out my thought process, but I can see where you took it that way. My apologies to Tazzi if she took it that way .

And please be specific. In what way was my post almost entirely an attack?

< Message edited by lickenforyou -- 12/23/2010 5:02:26 PM >


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RE: Pascal's Wager - 12/23/2010 5:01:38 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Do you even know who V.J. Wukmir was? Are his conclusions accepted by the Psychiatric Association? Are his conclusions integrated into any diagnoses published in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders? All leading scientist who study the brain admit that very little is known about it. Can you explain to me how emotions are severed?


We're always experiencing some type of emotion or feeling. Our emotional state varies throughout the day as a result of what happens to us - and of the stimuli we perceive. However, we may not always be conscious of it, according to a published review by Gonzales, Barrull, Pons and Marteles on a pioneering study on emotions by professor V.J. Wukmir, author of "Emotion and Suffering." When emotions are described as positive or negative, it's not so much a value judgment as it is a description of the main action of each group.

Negative emotions express an intention to exclude - strengthening one's position at the expense of others. They're fueled by an underlying fear of the unknown, a fear of the actions of others and a need to control them or stop them to avoid being harmed.

Positive emotions express an intention to include - taking the whole into consideration. Positive emotions involve the exploration of more viewpoints and interacting more with others. They're fueled by an underlying desire for enjoyment and unity.

Some emotions camouflage as positive or negative, but really are the opposite of what they pretend, according to the Transformational Processing Institute. For example, there's a type of pity that appears as genuine concern for others, but which is taking comfort in the fact that someone else is worse off than you.

Although it might sound like the negative emotions are just something to get rid of, that's not necessarily the case. They actually serve important functions. They can reveal something one doesn't know and can't deal with. If that becomes motivation to then learn it and deal with it, this can be very useful. If you're always joyful, for example, you might miss noticing things that are wrong.

As human beings, we express all sorts of combinations of emotions. Some of us could be chronically stuck in a negative emotion. Others might be stuck in a positive one. And in stressful situations, we tend to react according to certain emotional patterns. A casual remark might push a button that unleashes pent-up anger. Sound familiar?

A helpful goal is to be fluid in terms of emotion - being able to use whatever emotion is most appropriate - and being able to use the full range as necessary. Most likely, a person who is fluid and flexible will choose to live mostly in a positive frame of mind. But the goal is actually integration - moving beyond the positive/negative idea altogether.


http://www.wvgazette.com/Life/LindaArnold/200811130733?page=2&build=cache

Until Wukmir's work of 1967, "Emoción y Sufrimiento", nobody has been able to give a coherent explanation of emotion. All that it has been said, and it is still said, are ambiguities and hazy descriptions of its general effects.

http://www.biopsychology.org/biopsychology/papers/what_is_emotion.htm

You tell me.

quote:

Of course I don’t mind if you take someone else’s conclusions. But, I was hoping to have an intelligent conversation with a person who has formed an opinion through critical thinking. My emotional reaction to you writing that I pulled my statement out of my ass was anger and I wanted to attack and maybe call you a dumbass. But, I put that emotion aside. I told my subconscious that I was not under a physical attack. That anger was not the appropriate response. To achieve my goal of intellectual discourse it is better for me to try to explain my reasoning.


So instead of anger you switch to passive-aggressiveness.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Pascal's Wager - 12/24/2010 5:15:32 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou
I would say that financial security is directly related to survival.

Agreed, It seems plausible to me that a person could rationally come to the position that financial security is a tool which would be useful in achieving continued survival.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou
I would be glad to show you what I mean. But, we would first have to agree, or disagree, whether the drive for survival is rational or not.

I consider the drive for survival to be a drive, not a position which is based on reasoned thought.

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RE: Pascal's Wager - 12/25/2010 4:28:57 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou
I would say that financial security is directly related to survival.

Agreed, It seems plausible to me that a person could rationally come to the position that financial security is a tool which would be useful in achieving continued survival.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou
I would be glad to show you what I mean. But, we would first have to agree, or disagree, whether the drive for survival is rational or not.

I consider the drive for survival to be a drive, not a position which is based on reasoned thought.



Great, let’s start there.   I concede that point, survival is a drive and is always present.. However, a drive is not an emotion. Emotion is a tool used to satisfy the drive. And, I think that emotion can even override the drive for survival. But, then logic can override the emotion.
  My original statement was that I put emotion aside (or overrode it) and used logic to reach a decision.   In the study posted below it was found that when the brain encounters an emotional conflict it automatically resorts to logic. I didn’t know this until I looked it up, but I would say that if the brain can do it automatically then we can probably do it intentionally.   Now, I would never use one study to say that I am absolutely correct. I’m using it to simply point out that there is some research out there that should at least give credence to the fact that I’m not simply pulling this out of my ass.     Logic Takes Over When Emotions Fail   http://www.webmd.com/balance/news/20060920/logic-takes-over-when-emotion-fails



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RE: Pascal's Wager - 12/25/2010 6:56:36 PM   
tazzygirl


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basing your information on a study of 19 volunteers, all around 26, doesnt make your case. Too limited information to be considered anything other than interesting.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Pascal's Wager - 12/25/2010 7:13:21 PM   
Kirata


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From your link:

The participants' job: Look at the faces, ignore the printed words, and describe the face as happy or fearful. That might sound easy, but there was a twist. Some of the happy faces had "fear" printed across them, and some of the fearful faces had "happy" stamped on them. That contradiciton -- or "emotional conflict," in the researchers' words -- made participants hem and haw a bit in sizing up the photographed faces.

There's no emotional conflict there. It's a processing conflict (usually demonstrated using colors) called the Stroop Effect.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/25/2010 7:29:09 PM >

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RE: Pascal's Wager - 12/25/2010 8:25:27 PM   
lickenforyou


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But earlier you said that we can’t make decisions on reason alone. So wouldn’t a processing conflict also, at least, include an emotional conflict? And, I would guess, just a guess, that faces would provoke more emotion than colors and names of colors.
The study also said...
Those scans showed that, as expected, emotions were processed by an area of the brain called the amygdala.   But when the photos contained the "emotional conflict," the amygdala took a backseat to another brain area, called the rostral anterior cingulate cortex, which is more involved in logical thought.
The study doesn’t say whether the amygdale was not engaged at all, or a little bit. Which is one of the reasons I said that “I would never use one study to say that I am absolutely correct.”
I just know that the less I use emotions in making a decision, the better the outcome has been. Now, it may be that you can make decisions using logic alone and emotions are a way of informing the body (that, I am pulling directly from my ass). But, I believe that emotions come from split second calculations made by the subconscious. Which would really make them logic.
It’s also my observation that people who rely on emotions more than logic to make decisions tend to make poor decisions.


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RE: Pascal's Wager - 12/25/2010 9:51:52 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

But earlier you said that we can’t make decisions on reason alone. So wouldn’t a processing conflict also, at least, include an emotional conflict?

It's only an "emotional conflict" if you have conflicting emotions. So no, zip, nada.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

And, I would guess, just a guess, that faces would provoke more emotion than colors and names of colors.

Depends on the face. Colors have a very strong tie to our emotions. That's why there are colored plates in the Rorschach, and it is the basis of the Luscher Color Test. Too, the Stroop Effect obtains with pictures of cows and goats, and in fact even with numbers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

I just know that the less I use emotions in making a decision, the better the outcome has been... It’s also my observation that people who rely on emotions more than logic to make decisions tend to make poor decisions.

Depends on the decision (and how neurotic you are). Generally speaking, however, to be strictly logical in an interpersonal relationship is not to have one. And that aside, I'll point out again that you keep talking about "emotions" when I never used the term, and when you don't seem to grasp that your preference for not relying on your emotions reflects how you feel about relying on "emotions" versus logic.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/25/2010 10:01:41 PM >

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RE: Pascal's Wager - 12/26/2010 12:37:57 AM   
lickenforyou


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quote:


It's only an "emotional conflict" if you have conflicting emotions. So no, zip, nada.


I thinks it’s pretty obvious that an angry face with the word HAPPY on it would cause an emotional conflict. Which was what the researchers were trying to do.

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

And, I would guess, just a guess, that faces would provoke more emotion than colors and names of colors.

Depends on the face. Colors have a very strong tie to our emotions. That's why there are colored plates in the Rorschach, and it is the basis of the Luscher Color Test. Too, the Stroop Effect obtains with pictures of cows and goats, and in fact even with numbers.


I’m assuming since we are a highly social animal that faces with expressions would evoke stronger reactions than colors. Are there any studies that compare the two?

quote:

I'll point out again that you keep talking about "emotions" when I never used the term, and when you don't seem to grasp that your preference for not relying on your emotions reflects how you feel about relying on "emotions" versus logic.


Ok, you said “how we feel about.” What are feelings?

< Message edited by lickenforyou -- 12/26/2010 1:35:38 AM >


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RE: Pascal's Wager - 12/26/2010 9:26:38 AM   
tazzygirl


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You do realize that many psychologists believe that relying solely upon rational thought... if thats at all possible... has just as many problems as someone relying completely upon emotions. Your assertion that rational thought process is best is flawed.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Pascal's Wager - 12/26/2010 11:22:39 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Pascal's Wager was touched on in a thread recently and I thought deserved a thread of its own. Now I'm not looking for yet another thread where everyone who isn't buying Pascal's Wager explains all the issues with it (been there done that). I'd like to hear from those who think it's a valid proof.



What do you mean: 'valid proof'?

Can you tell me of any event that couldn't possibly occur (based on your 'valid proof')? It's possible that someone will walk on water in the future - you couldn't possibly disprove this.

At no point did Pascal attempt to offer proof that god existed; nor did he claim that reason was a substitute for faith.

He simply proposed decision theory - including the consideration of risk and reward (surely you understand this is a rational argument?) as a means of converting the waverers - and maintained that this reasoned approach was simply clearing a path toward faith as opposed to the reason for believing in and of itself.

And as for your insistence that reason is the only useful standard when judging human affairs and beliefs.....well....reason is not an objective standard and it arises out of the community's experiences....which means it can only ever be the majority's view at any given point in time as opposed to some objective standard where you can measure right and wrong...true and false. And whereupon you grasp this...you'll see that reason is only ever as good as our limited knowledge of the world....you can't reason that which you don't know.

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