RE: Democrat Death Panels (Full Version)

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Marc2b -> RE: Democrat Death Panels (12/7/2010 7:22:30 AM)

quote:

So you want all the states to come up with their own laws regarding an issue that women had to fight for for years. Didnt we have that fight over slavery?


Yes. I want us to obey the Constitution. I want the Federal Government to butt out of things it has no say in. I want the people of Oklahoma and Vermont and Colorado and Massa-however-you-spell-it to decide for themselves. That's what Federalism is supposed to be. That's what freedom is supposed to be. If the Federal Government wants to have a say in abortion then we need a Constitutional amendment.

Slavery (the real kind and not the fun BDSM variety) is an abhorrent and blatant violation of human rights and has no bearing on the subject matter. The two do not equate. The tired old canard of attempting to brand the concept of States Rights as impractical and/or immoral because some people cited the doctrine in defense of slavery in no way discredits the concept of States Rights. It is nothing more than the old “guilt by association” fallacy. Fred Phelps has sited free speech in defense of his appalling verbal harassment of grieving families. Does that refute the concept of free speech? No it does not. That is because free speech is not in and of itself inherently immoral. Neither is States Rights.





mnottertail -> RE: Democrat Death Panels (12/7/2010 7:28:49 AM)

So, you want a constitution followed except for the little thing about the Supreme Court, because they say that inherent in our laws of confederation of states ( US Constitution) is a thing called a womans right to decide. Perhaps you missed the dustup with Wade V Roe decision, although I believe it was in all the papers and made some telly and radio shows as well.




Marc2b -> RE: Democrat Death Panels (12/7/2010 7:30:04 AM)

quote:

Doesn't say nutt'n bout drinking and driving either, damn activist judges...now where did I put my flask, it's hard enough to drive while loading my shotgun


And yet, we have plenty of State and local laws to deal with drunk drivers. What exactly is your point?

I recommend not keeping a loaded shotgun in your vehicle. There are, I am quite certain, numerous State and local laws regarding that as well.




tazzygirl -> RE: Democrat Death Panels (12/7/2010 7:34:53 AM)

quote:

Slavery (the real kind and not the fun BDSM variety) is an abhorrent and blatant violation of human rights and has no bearing on the subject matter. The two do not equate. The tired old canard of attempting to brand the concept of States Rights as impractical and/or immoral because some people cited the doctrine in defense of slavery in no way discredits the concept of States Rights. It is nothing more than the old “guilt by association” fallacy. Fred Phelps has sited free speech in defense of his appalling verbal harassment of grieving families. Does that refute the concept of free speech? No it does not. That is because free speech is not in and of itself inherently immoral. Neither is States Rights.


But slavery was legal by the original constitution. My point in commenting on state rights was that some states felt it was a right to own slaves, while others did not. Using your premise for abortions, some would feel its a right to be given and others would not.

Well, hold on to your hat. No one has the right to tell anyone what they must do or not do with their own bodies. No state has the right to dictate reproductive rights. IF they could, do you realize what kind of problems would arise? Do states then have the right to determine who can and who cannot have children? Shall we start mass sterilizing people labled as retarded or those with psychiatric disorders? If so, which ones?

Talk about a slippery slope.




servantforuse -> RE: Democrat Death Panels (12/7/2010 7:38:48 AM)

If everyone has the right to do as they wish with their own bodies ? Not hardly. If that were the case there would be no drug laws.




Marc2b -> RE: Democrat Death Panels (12/7/2010 7:38:57 AM)


quote:

So, you want a constitution followed except for the little thing about the Supreme Court, because they say that inherent in our laws of confederation of states ( US Constitution) is a thing called a womans right to decide. Perhaps you missed the dustup with Wade V Roe decision, although I believe it was in all the papers and made some telly and radio shows as well.


No I did not. I do not regard abortion as a right. The Supreme Court's interpetation was incorrect (and if you don't believe that the Supreme Court can be wrong about something - go ask Dred Scott). If you want abortion enshrined as a right then we need a Constitutional Admendment.




mnottertail -> RE: Democrat Death Panels (12/7/2010 7:46:58 AM)

No, it goes the other way around, if you don't want abortion, you need a constitutional amendment.

It may or may not be that any one opinion of the supreme court regarding constitutional law is right or wrong, but it is what our constitution provides for and just like prohibiting slavery, prohibiting abortion requires the amendment.

Malum in se is not malum prohibitum, and that is a vexation to all of us in one way or another.




Louve00 -> RE: Democrat Death Panels (12/7/2010 7:51:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Is it even possible to 'kill' an unborn child? Surely that's a bit like eating an unmade cake?


This is my thought on it all too.  Eventually it will grow up to be a life (probably).  But a zygote can't sustain its own life without a mother to house it.  Kinda like a parasite, if you ask me.  (and no, I'm not a child hater lol.  I have a child.  This is just a silly argument IMO.




DCWoody -> RE: Democrat Death Panels (12/7/2010 7:57:56 AM)

This entire argument is bullshit based around the fundamental abortion debate itself.
If you think that a baby* isn't a separate human life until birth*, then there's nothing in the constitution about abortion. If you think it is beforehand, then clearly it's a murder* (sort of) thing, and is pretty solidly in the constitution.

All these arguments about whether abortion is covered in various national or international laws, religious books, does or doesn't count as manslaughter* or whatever....depend on the individuals view of the situation itself.

You can't say abortion is unconstitutional because of the right to not be killed amendment** because pro-abortion* people don't think it's killing a person, and ya can't say that abortion is fine by constitution because foetuses don't count as people because anti-abortion people DO think they're people, that's the whole damn point. You're just going round and round the foetuses are people after this point/no not until this point argument, but through a veil of irrelevent legal & historical crap.

**I'm not american, I don't know.
*Before ya complain about phrasing or words being biased in one way or another, bear in mind that I do not give a shit.




cuckoldmepls -> RE: Democrat Death Panels (12/7/2010 7:58:25 AM)

So according to you, If i want to murder someone walking down the street it should be legal, since we would need a constitutional amendment banning it before it could be illegal. Yea, that makes a lot of sense.




tazzygirl -> RE: Democrat Death Panels (12/7/2010 7:59:19 AM)

Which is the stance both the courts and the medical community takes. Until the moment a fetus can survive outside the womb, its not viable.

Drs wont treat for a spontaneous abortion until 20 weeks. Do we now call them murders?




mnottertail -> RE: Democrat Death Panels (12/7/2010 8:01:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckoldmepls

So according to you, If i want to murder someone walking down the street it should be legal, since we would need a constitutional amendment banning it before it could be illegal. Yea, that makes a lot of sense.


No, you vile fuck, she never said anything of the sort. If you don't possess brains enough to pour piss out of a boot, you shouldn't be interjecting your asswipe in grown up conversations, nor trying to pour piss out of a boot. 




Louve00 -> RE: Democrat Death Panels (12/7/2010 8:05:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckoldmepls

So according to you, If i want to murder someone walking down the street it should be legal, since we would need a constitutional amendment banning it before it could be illegal. Yea, that makes a lot of sense.


Well, now...lets think of this the way I think of it...(since you want everyone to think of it your way).  If you decided to kill someone walking down the street, then you've killed a person that was sustaining their own life until you ended it.  Is a pregnant woman killing a life that can't sustain itself, if she aborts the pregnancy?  You can say yes all you want, but unless that pregnancy is ended in the first or even second trimester of pregnancy, that fetus cannot sustain its own life.  Now...if you're talking abortions in the 3rd trimester, I would tend to agree.  So, to me that makes sense. 




rulemylife -> RE: Democrat Death Panels (12/7/2010 8:15:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

No. Which is why the federal government should not have any say in the matter and the matter should be left to the state governments.


What would be the reasoning behind that?




rulemylife -> RE: Democrat Death Panels (12/7/2010 8:27:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Uhh, Cucko? You do understand that the Constitution is the People giving rights to government, not the other way around, right? Kind of a core conservative principle there.

Since you understand that, why don't you tell us where the Constitution has given government the right to dictate what goes on in the wombs of the People?


I agree with you 100% that it is the people giving rights to the government.

What I question is you calling it a core conservative principle when it is conservatives that are pushing for overturning Roe v. Wade.






tazzygirl -> RE: Democrat Death Panels (12/7/2010 8:29:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

If everyone has the right to do as they wish with their own bodies ? Not hardly. If that were the case there would be no drug laws.


That is not what i said.




servantforuse -> RE: Democrat Death Panels (12/7/2010 8:44:34 AM)

You said that no one has the right to say what they must do or must not do with their bodies. The government does have that right in many cases.




tazzygirl -> RE: Democrat Death Panels (12/7/2010 9:01:47 AM)

And abortion is another example. It gives women the right to have an abortion. Yet you, and others, insist that they are wrong.

Medical use of pot... right in some states, wrong in others.

Euthanasia... right for some states, wrong for others.

But, in no state is the right to reproductive rights given over to the state. Hitler's Nazi Germany used US Law...

Significance: Virginia's law served as a model for similar laws in thirty states, under which 50,000 U.S. citizens were sterilized without their consent. During the Nuremberg war trials following World War II (1939–45) , German lawyers cited the decision as a precedent for the sterilization of two million people in its "Rassenhygiene" (race hygiene) program. U.S. sterilization programs continued into the 1970s.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G2-3457000138.html

Recently men's reproductive right with regards to paternity have become subject of debate in the U.S. The term "male abortion" was coined by Melanie McCulley, a South Carolina attorney, in a 1998 article. The theory begins with the premise that when a woman becomes pregnant she has the option of abortion, adoption, or parenthood; it argues, in the context of legally recognized gender equality, that in the earliest stages of pregnancy the putative (alleged) father should have the right to relinquish all future parental rights and financial responsibility, leaving the informed mother with the same three options.[19] See child support.

In 2006, the National Center for Men brought a case in the US, Dubay v. Wells (dubbed by some "Roe v. Wade for men"), that argued that in the event of an unplanned pregnancy, when an unmarried woman informs a man that she is pregnant by him, he should have an opportunity to give up all paternity rights and responsibilities. Supporters argue that this would allow the woman time to make an informed decision and give men the same reproductive rights as women.[20][21] In its dismissal of the case, the U.S. Court of Appeals (Sixth Circuit) stated that "the Fourteenth Amendment does not deny to [the] State the power to treat different classes of persons in different ways."[22]


.........

Collaborative research from the Institute of Development Studies states that "access to safe abortion is a matter of human rights, democracy and public health, and the denial of such access is a major cause of death and impairment, with significant costs to [international] development".[36] The research highlights the inequities of access to safe abortion both globally and nationally and emphasises the importance of global and national movements for reform to address this. The shift by campaigners of reproductive rights from an issue-based agenda (the right to abortion), to safe, legal abortion not only as a human right, but bound up with democratic and citizenship rights, has been an important way of reframing the abortion debate and reproductive justice agenda.[36]

According to the WHO, more than 45 million (legal and illegal) abortions take place annually. At the same time, approximately 66,500 women die from the complications of unsafe abortion every year.[25]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_rights#Women.27s_rights

Pro-choice advocates seem to recognize better than most that without a legal avenue to abortions, women will seek out backstreet abortions once again. The death toll will rise. You seem to believe that an end to legalized abortions will "save lives" when, in fact, the opposite is the reality.




rulemylife -> RE: Democrat Death Panels (12/7/2010 9:04:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Doesn't say nutt'n bout drinking and driving either, damn activist judges...now where did I put my flask, it's hard enough to drive while loading my shotgun


And yet, we have plenty of State and local laws to deal with drunk drivers. What exactly is your point?



No, we don't.

We have a federal mandate that requires a .08% limit and that was imposed by the government blackmailing states into accepting it by withholding highway funds.




Louve00 -> RE: Democrat Death Panels (12/7/2010 9:07:29 AM)

And aside from Tazzy's post pointing out how the life of a pregnant woman is, in some cases, endangered, because of all this hubbub about pregnancy and abortions...how can all these pro-life people be as serious as they are when they bomb and kill Dr's that do abortions.  The justification....over a possible life that may not even survive natually....or worse, become a Ted Bundy....is incredulous.




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