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RE: They're both nuts. - 12/7/2010 11:07:59 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

So, not raising taxes is a tax cut, Muse?

What the fuck are you talking about?

quote:

The $700 billion is an imaginary number.

Use any unpaid for number you like. Makes no difference--same point.

Didn't ya'll just claim you swept the place clean to install fiscal responsibility? Seems "tone deaf" is catching on Capitol Hill.

What a maroon.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

$700 billion for tax cuts, including for the wealthy, an extension of unemployment benefits, and a one-year 2% reduction in FICA.

All of it unpaid for.
But that's the Republican/Obama deal, and both sides are defending it.

Unbelievingfuckable.

That this has no prayer in Congress, from Dems or Pubs, is the only bright side.

Free money. Get it here.





< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 12/7/2010 11:18:15 PM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: They're both nuts. - 12/7/2010 11:13:45 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Cash is not the problem right now. Businesses are sitting on cash. Banks are sitting on cash.

They just are not lending or hiring.


Well, gee whiz, I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that with bailouts, they get money whether they lend or not.

Conservatives have been complaining for decades about welfare recipients that lose the incentive to work.  Well, Bush and Obama have extended that concept to corporations.



Steven, correct, it's pretty hard not to make money when you're getting it for nothing and loaning it out at 7-8%, 16-25% if you're issuing credit cards!


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RE: They're both nuts. - 12/7/2010 11:18:59 PM   
tazzygirl


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Which the poor darlings are now missing out on.

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RE: They're both nuts. - 12/7/2010 11:19:21 PM   
PyrotheClown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Business owners are worried about two things right now. Future tax rates and future health care mandates. One of those was addressed this week. We will have to work on the remaining one in January.

Let me ask you something...are you a business owner?
I am(part owner of a small industrial land trading LLC and a family printing business), AND even before the cuts, taxes now are lower then they have been for the past fifty fucking years.
Tax cuts don't effect spending habits of companies all that much(remember, that a loss is a tax right off, and alota companies expand just to keep from paying uncle sam). The payroll tax cuts have some effect, but considering most businesses have been seeing higher returns with less employs for the last eighteen months, it's hardly a carrot worth biting.

this is especially troubling considering that it may hinder obama's chances of extending taxcuts for green projects which will end this year.
tax cuts that directly create more jobs while beefing up our energy infrastructure, but I guess that giving that money to those who are already well off, whether they create more jobs or not, is worth it.

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RE: They're both nuts. - 12/8/2010 12:39:41 AM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Small businesses rely heavily upon owner investment and bank credit, averaging about $80,000 a year for young firms.

So... if individuals have more cash through lower tax rates, those that wish to are better able to start those new businesses.  Particularly since the banks aren't lending as much these days.




Why would they invest when there are no customers? It doesn't matter if they had twice what they have to invest as they do now, by whatever means, they aren't going to hire if people aren't buying their products or services. Businesses invest and hire based on expected return. They do not keep on investing willy-nilly just because they possess or can obtain more funds.


I'll let them explain:

http://businessforsharedprosperity.org/resources/The+Business+Case+for+Letting+High-End+Tax+Cuts+Expire


Small business hiring is driven by customer demand, not tax rates

“Expecting high-end tax cuts to trickle down as job creation is about as reasonable as pouring gasoline on your hood and expecting it to fuel your engine. I’ve run a small business for more than 30 years. When people tell you that small business owners will use the money they save from lower tax rates to hire someone, they’ve got it backwards. Either they’ve never run a small business or they’re trying to mislead you. My tax rate doesn’t effect hiring. If I think I can do more business, my company will hire more workers. The costs of finding, hiring and paying new employees are business expenses. They’re deducted up front from our taxable income.”
—Lew Prince, Managing Partner, Vintage Vinyl, St. Louis, MO.


"Money that a small business owner pays in employee wages or other business expenses is not included in the owner’s taxable income. Small businesses will not hire workers or make new investments unless they expect enough demand for their products and services to justify the increased capacity. Owners base decisions to reinvest business revenue back into the business on expected demand for their products and services, not on income tax rates."


“As a Certified Public Accountant and business owner, I know the impact of taxes up close and personal. The claim that ending Bush’s tax cuts on income over a quarter of a million dollars will hurt the economy, reduce employment and burden small businesses is patently false.”
— Brian Setzler, President, TriLibrium, an accounting and business advisory firm, Portland, OR.



This is a long established fact known to those who understand business investing, as anyone who reads legitimate economic or financial publications knows, but you'll rarely see mention of it in the mainstream press. Lenders and businesses alike are dealing with a severe aggregate demand shock right now, and the disinclination to borrow has as much or more to do with the investment drop-off as the disinclination to lend.

As far as the spending that would help businesses, all macroeconomics textbooks explain that by the marginal propensity to consume (mpc) parameter, the wealthier one is, the more they save and less they spend from a given increase in disposable income. 

A recent study done by Moody's to reaffirm this, from Bloomberg:

http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=acalbjpnIxcE


So extending the lower tax for the wealthiest will do not do anything for the economy, not induce investment, will do nothing for hiring, but rather will only dig us deeper into an already deep hole.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 12/8/2010 12:50:34 AM >

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RE: They're both nuts. - 12/8/2010 12:46:01 AM   
PyrotheClown


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right on the money ed, just look at what companies are making it right now

walmart, krogers, gas companies ect.

not exactly luxury investments lol

but I think you may be going over their heads, here, let me dum it down(or as some call it, public school it)
give money to poor people, they'll spend it
give money to rich people, they'll keep it

(in reply to Edwynn)
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RE: They're both nuts. - 12/8/2010 4:21:40 AM   
subrob1967


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Once again you guys keep repeating the fallicy that the government has a right to the "$700 billion". They don't.

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RE: They're both nuts. - 12/8/2010 4:26:03 AM   
PyrotheClown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Once again you guys keep repeating the fallicy that the government has a right to the "$700 billion". They don't.

You mean they don't have the right to tax the richest people in the country

then who do they tax....
roads ,schools,wars,ect cost money

(in reply to subrob1967)
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RE: They're both nuts. - 12/8/2010 4:29:34 AM   
SexyBossyBBW


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Except, somehow we have to buy those war machines, and Xray Machines, and pay the soldiers to go fight ridiculous wars, for our safety thing.   Print, and sell to all those countries who love us....   Yup, that's the ticket!   M

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RE: They're both nuts. - 12/8/2010 5:58:13 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Once again you guys keep repeating the fallicy that the government has a right to the "$700 billion". They don't.

Once again you repeat the fallacy that money is magic.

Whether a tax increase or a cut in revenue, with nothing to offset them, it's additional debt for which you are on the hook and which exacerbates the structural deficit.

This proposal does both--the worst of both worlds.

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RE: They're both nuts. - 12/8/2010 6:31:18 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

So, not raising taxes is a tax cut, Muse?

What the fuck are you talking about?




I'm talking about someone who should fucking well know better, embracing the newspeak version of events.

quote:

Didn't ya'll just claim you swept the place clean to install fiscal responsibility? Seems "tone deaf" is catching on Capitol Hill.


It's partisan hack Muse today, I guess. Let me know when the guy with a brain gets back.

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RE: They're both nuts. - 12/8/2010 6:42:34 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Have you seen the latest unemployment figures ? 9.8% last month and climbing. The trillion dollar stimulus apparently isn't working.


Remembering that fully one third of that was tax cuts.

And corporate interests sitting on a fucking pile and a half of cash.

It certainly intimates that the money went to the wrong end of the economy.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 12/8/2010 7:04:17 AM >


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RE: They're both nuts. - 12/8/2010 7:03:44 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Once again you guys keep repeating the fallicy that the government has a right to the "$700 billion". They don't.


Too late.  The money got spent a long time ago.  The question is, who will they recover it from?  I'd rather it be the wealthy.

And yes, I do want to rein the government in so they spend less of our money in the future.


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RE: They're both nuts. - 12/8/2010 7:07:14 AM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Once again you guys keep repeating the fallicy that the government has a right to the "$700 billion". They don't.

Once again you repeat the fallacy that money is magic.

Whether a tax increase or a cut in revenue, with nothing to offset them, it's additional debt for which you are on the hook and which exacerbates the structural deficit.

This proposal does both--the worst of both worlds.


People can tho willingly send in funds to the govt- to the debt.  I will see if I can locate the link for you.

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RE: They're both nuts. - 12/8/2010 8:32:15 AM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

When businesses, big or small make money, that is a good thing. Paying less in taxes will help all businesses. A poor person has never hired anyone.



That 2% of FICA is the only part of it that affects businesses. The rest concerns individual taxes, which has no bearing on business decisions. And while on the subject, taxes have virtually no effect on the spending decisions of the wealthy as studies on the matter show. Only for the lower echelon of the upper middle class on down do taxes affect personal consumption, the lower the income level the greater the effect.

The extension of the tax cuts affect individual, not business taxes.







I think that the 2% FICA cut will cut Social Security at a later date.   Not exactly sure how the compile it because it is a complex formula.  But I know that it is dependent upon how much you pay in.

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RE: They're both nuts. - 12/8/2010 10:18:07 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

$That this has no prayer in Congress, from Dems or Pubs, is the only bright side.



Wanna bet?

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RE: They're both nuts. - 12/8/2010 10:22:11 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Cash is not the problem right now. Businesses are sitting on cash. Banks are sitting on cash.

They just are not lending or hiring. But it's not for lack of cash, and more cash is merely a gamble, at the cost of higher deficits on top of already high debt.

Congressional Democrats and Republicans who oppose this are right to do so. It's not win/win at all. It's cash for votes in 2012.




Business is sitting on cash BECAUSE of the uncertainty over taxes and the certainty of health care costs going up under Obamacare unless its defunded/repealed in large part.

2 year extensions may not be enough to eliminate the uncertainty totally, but given the likelihood of further GOP gains in 2012 it should be enough to loosen up the purse strings, especially for 2011 with immediate deductions for small business equipment write offs.

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RE: They're both nuts. - 12/8/2010 10:24:17 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

. And while on the subject, taxes have virtually no effect on the spending decisions of the wealthy as studies on the matter show.





Too bad thats only 1/2 the story. Taxes are a paramount consideration in the INVESTMENT decisions of the wealthy. Investment has double the stimulus impact of spending.

And get your facts straight. the payroll tax reduction is for individuals, not companies.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 12/8/2010 10:32:04 AM >


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RE: They're both nuts. - 12/8/2010 10:32:21 AM   
Moonhead


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Pity that thirty odd years of monetarist governments have left the poor dears investing in China and India rather than local businesses, isn't it?

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RE: They're both nuts. - 12/8/2010 10:37:50 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


This bill concerns individual, not business taxes.


While that is true, it is individuals who create and run the small businesses that employ half of all private sector employees.  Some facts to consider:

Small firms:
• Represent 99.7 percent of all employer firms.
• Employ half of all private sector employees.
• Pay 44 percent of total U.S. private payroll.
• Generated 65 percent of net new jobs over the past 17 years.
• Create more than half of the nonfarm private GDP.
• Hire 43 percent of high tech workers (scientists, engineers, computer programmers, and others).
• Are 52 percent home-based and 2 percent franchises.
• Made up 97.5 percent of all identified exporters and produced 31 percent of export value in FY 2008.
• Produce 13 times more patents per employee than large patenting firms.
Small firms accounted for 65 percent (or 9.8 million) of the 15 million net new jobs created between 1993 and 2009.

An estimated 552,600 new employer firms opened for business in 2009, and 660,900 firms closed.

Small businesses rely heavily upon owner investment and bank credit, averaging about $80,000 a year for young firms.

So... if individuals have more cash through lower tax rates, those that wish to are better able to start those new businesses.  Particularly since the banks aren't lending as much these days.



And small businesses in their highest growth stages ARE paying individual tax rates because they are Sub-S corps, partnerships or LLCs.

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