RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations.

RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (Full Version)

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DomKen -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/16/2010 6:44:35 AM)
Erdogan condemning Israel over and over http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArchiveDetails.aspx?ID=77876 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/28/world/africa/28iht-react.3.18958168.html http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=NewsLibrary&p_multi=BBAB&d_place=BBAB&p_theme=newslibrary2&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=1134CB12950C0FC0&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM http://archive.arabnews.com/?page=7§ion=0&article=46434&d=8&m=6&y=2004

tweakabelle -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/16/2010 10:24:34 AM)
Lots of quotes criticising Israel by Erdogan - yes. But that wasn't what you were asked for. You were asked to justify your claim that: quote: "Erdogan is a fundamentalist Muslim who has expressed repeatedly his desire to eliminate Israel." DomKen post #119 Despite having two attempts, you seem unable to produce any evidence to support your claim. None of the sources you cited support your claim in any way. The reason for that is of course that the evidence you seek doesn't exist. You made your utterly false claim up. It is fiction. Your ongoing attempts to crawl out of the hole you have dug for yourself with totally imaginary claims, denials and false citations only destroy what little remaining credibility you may have had.

DomKen -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/16/2010 12:26:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Lots of quotes criticising Israel by Erdogan - yes. But that wasn't what you were asked for. You were asked to justify your claim that: quote: "Erdogan is a fundamentalist Muslim who has expressed repeatedly his desire to eliminate Israel." DomKen post #119 Despite having two attempts, you seem unable to produce any evidence to support your claim. None of the sources you cited support your claim in any way. The reason for that is of course that the evidence you seek doesn't exist. You made your utterly false claim up. It is fiction. Your ongoing attempts to crawl out of the hole you have dug for yourself with totally imaginary claims, denials and false citations only destroy what little remaining credibility you may have had. Actually the problem is going back 8 to 12 years, when he was in the Welfare Party and making the really negative statements, is running into problems with sites wanting to be paid to get the articles, as a couple of those that are only a couple of years old did. If you're really claiming the leadership of the Turkish Welfare Party as anything but strongly opposed to Israel you should do the research before calling me a liar.

hertz -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/16/2010 1:40:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen It's dumb because you claim to be knowledgeable about the politics surounding the Israel/Arab conflict. If you actually knew anything about the history of the conflict it would be obvious that prominent members of the movement of non aligned nations supporting a palestine state is part of the movements long held goals. You're probably so uninformed that you don't even understand the reason that the UN GA consistently condemns Israel is about the politics of the movement. I'll tell you what's dumb. This thread is about three South American nations recognising Palestine. Have a look at the OP and see if you can name them. Tell you what, I'll save you the trouble. The named countries are Argentina, Brazil and Uruguay. Later on, some more countries were named: Mexico, Ecuador and El Salvador. These were suggested as countries which might recognise Palestine in the future. Here's the dumb: Of the first three countries, not a single one is a member of the non-aligned movement. Of the last three, just one is a member. You've done two levels of dumb here - it's quite remarkable. Not only have you completely missed the question you were asked, but you have also answered the question you thoughtfully made up to replace the question you were actually asked, wrongly. How's that for dumb? You know what you need to do? You need to get out a bit more and talk to people, maybe read some history, do a bit of learning. Stop filling your head with Israeli Propaganda and learn some proper facts. Edited to add [sm=owned.gif]

DomKen -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/16/2010 2:16:02 PM)
Actually Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Mexico and El Salvador are 2nd tier members, and Argentina used to be a first tier member. So maybe you should stop telling lies.

hertz -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/16/2010 2:28:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Actually Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Mexico and El Salvador are 2nd tier members, and Argentina used to be a first tier member. So maybe you should stop telling lies. Actually, they have Observer status. This means: quote: Within the framework of the need to promote the opening of the Movement to the contributions of other actors in the international arena, the current practice is to admit states as observers to the NAM meetings. States, which fulfil criteria for admission as members, will have the option of applying for observer status. Observers may attend and, with the Bureau's permission, address the Plenary of a Summit Conference or Ministerial meeting. They shall not participate in Committees nor in the meetings of NAM working groups, contact groups or task forces. The procedure for admission of members will apply for admission of observers. http://www.nam.gov.za/ quote: The following countries are observers of the Movement : Antigua and Barbuda Armenia Azerbaijan Belarus Brazil China People's Republic Costa Rica Croatia Dominica Dominican Republic El Salvador Kazakhstan Kyrgyztan Mexico Paraguay Uruguay Ukraine Argentina is not a member of the NAM. I'll forgive you your accusation that I am lying, because it is extremely easy for anyone to check up on the facts by visiting the organisation's website at http://www.nam.gov.za/background/background.htm#4.2.

hertz -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/16/2010 2:40:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen If you actually knew anything about the history of the conflict it would be obvious that prominent members of the movement of non aligned nations supporting a palestine state is part of the movements long held goals. You're probably so uninformed that you don't even understand the reason that the UN GA consistently condemns Israel is about the politics of the movement. Quoted for context. 'Prominent members' of an organisation they turn out not even to be members of.

DomKen -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/16/2010 3:21:41 PM)
Argentina was and is a prominent member. Brazil has long been a influential ally of the organization. If you don't know the most basic history of the movement you best stop making claims you can't support.

tweakabelle -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/16/2010 8:19:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen If you don't know the most basic history of the movement you best stop making claims you can't support. Can I suggest that you take your own advice? Already, on this thread, you have been shown to be wrong 4 times. Despite 3 attempts, you have still failed to produce a skerrig of evidence to support your claims about Erdogan. Consequently, you have destroyed your own credibility. It's hardly surprising that some one advocating the Israeli line is forced to resort to fabrication to sustain their case - the facts offer them little alternative. Personally I will be happy to resume this conversation with you when you have demonstrated clearly that you understand (i) the difference between fact and fantasy; and (ii) demonstrate an ability to argue on the basis of truth, justice and real events. Until then, any further discussion with you of the Palestinian-Israeli situation is pointless. * * * This is an excerpt from a letter to the The Guardian, the UK paper from an English Labor MP: "Your insufficiently pessimistic leading article (Dead but not buried, 16 December) fails to refer to the most ineluctable fact about the stalemate between Israel and the Palestinians: demography. The prime minister of Jordan, whom I met in Amman last month, is the latest international statesman to point to what some of us have been saying for quite a while: that it is only a matter of time before the Palestinians (5.2 million at present) will outnumber Israeli Jews (5.7 million) and, as a prominent British Jewish leader said recently, exhibit Israel as an apartheid state. There will be no turning back, the chances of a two-state solution will disappear incrementally, and the one state that remains will not be Israel. Netanyahu's refusal to have a peace policy will become a suicide note." Gerald Kaufman MP Lab, Manchester Gorton http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/17/pessimism-on-israel-peace-policy Israelis are deluded if they believe that the status quo can be maintained indefinitely. Israel has a lot to lose and little to gain by adhering to its current position of effectively ruling out meaningful peace talks. The world will never allow permanent Israeli annexation of the West Bank.

hertz -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/17/2010 3:05:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Argentina was and is a prominent member. Brazil has long been a influential ally of the organization. If you don't know the most basic history of the movement you best stop making claims you can't support. From the NAM website: quote: Afghanistan Algeria Angola http://www.nam.gov.za/background/members.htm These are the members beginning with 'A'. Argentina is not one of these. quote: Antigua and Barbuda Armenia Azerbaijan These are Observers beginning with the letter 'A'. I'm still not seeing Argentina. quote: Australia Austria Guests. Neither of these appear to be Argentina. Brazil is an Observer state. You are wrong. Clearly and unambiguously. Wrong.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/17/2010 11:49:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hertz quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Argentina was and is a prominent member. Brazil has long been a influential ally of the organization. If you don't know the most basic history of the movement you best stop making claims you can't support. From the NAM website: quote: Afghanistan Algeria Angola http://www.nam.gov.za/background/members.htm These are the members beginning with 'A'. Argentina is not one of these. quote: Antigua and Barbuda Armenia Azerbaijan These are Observers beginning with the letter 'A'. I'm still not seeing Argentina. quote: Australia Austria Guests. Neither of these appear to be Argentina. Brazil is an Observer state. You are wrong. Clearly and unambiguously. Wrong. Argentina was admiitted as an Observer in 2009, dont know why your site doesnt show it, other sites do. They were an observer from 64 to 73, and a full member from 73 to 91.

DomKen -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/17/2010 12:09:01 PM)
Argentina is most defintiely a 2nd tier member of the NAM. They joined fully back when the Peronists were in charge and left when the cold war ended and have now rejoined. I guess I can keep posting the truth until you catch on.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/17/2010 12:23:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Argentina is most defintiely a 2nd tier member of the NAM. They joined fully back when the Peronists were in charge and left when the cold war ended and have now rejoined. I guess I can keep posting the truth until you catch on. Fast reply? We are in agreement. Observer status is the middle of the 3 levels (member observer invited guest), so "2d tier" is an apt, though unofficial (AFAIK) designation.

DomKen -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/17/2010 12:34:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle This is an excerpt from a letter to the The Guardian, the UK paper from an English Labor MP: "Your insufficiently pessimistic leading article (Dead but not buried, 16 December) fails to refer to the most ineluctable fact about the stalemate between Israel and the Palestinians: demography. The prime minister of Jordan, whom I met in Amman last month, is the latest international statesman to point to what some of us have been saying for quite a while: that it is only a matter of time before the Palestinians (5.2 million at present) will outnumber Israeli Jews (5.7 million) and, as a prominent British Jewish leader said recently, exhibit Israel as an apartheid state. There will be no turning back, the chances of a two-state solution will disappear incrementally, and the one state that remains will not be Israel. Netanyahu's refusal to have a peace policy will become a suicide note." Gerald Kaufman MP Lab, Manchester Gorton http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/17/pessimism-on-israel-peace-policy Israelis are deluded if they believe that the status quo can be maintained indefinitely. Israel has a lot to lose and little to gain by adhering to its current position of effectively ruling out meaningful peace talks. The world will never allow permanent Israeli annexation of the West Bank. You actually believed this BS? The absolute highest estimate of the arab population of the British Mandate in 1948 is 882,000. For that population to have increased to 5.2 million in 62 years is ridiculous. It would require an annual population increase of nearly 4%. Even at the height of the world wide post WWII baby boom the world's population never expanded at greater than a 2.2% rate.

DomKen -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/17/2010 12:36:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Argentina is most defintiely a 2nd tier member of the NAM. They joined fully back when the Peronists were in charge and left when the cold war ended and have now rejoined. I guess I can keep posting the truth until you catch on. Fast reply? We are in agreement. Observer status is the middle of the 3 levels (member observer invited guest), so "2d tier" is an apt, though unofficial (AFAIK) designation. Sorry it was a FR. as to 2nd tier its a lot easier than keeping track of which title which organization uses for its membership classes.

hertz -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/17/2010 1:15:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy Argentina was admiitted as an Observer in 2009, dont know why your site doesnt show it, other sites do. They were an observer from 64 to 73, and a full member from 73 to 91. Indeed, looking at this site: http://www.namegypt.org/en/AboutName/MembersObserversAndGuests/Pages/default.aspx Argentina is listed as an Observer. namegypt describes Observer status as: quote: 2. Observers Observers obtain such status based on the same criteria for the admission of members. They shall be entitled to attend the plenary sessions of Conferences and take the floor with the authorization of the Bureau. ...observers may participate only in the Movement deliberation and plenary sessions and Guests only attend high- level meetings of the Movement ( specially opening and closing sessions ) if so approved by the coordinating Bureau. '2nd Teir' is not a description I have seen anywhere else for this role. I do not agree it is apt. And it certainly does not, as DomKen earlier asserted, make Argentina 'a prominent member of NAM'. All this wriggling does nothing to change the reality that DomKen has made a series of assertions here which are utterly wrong. quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen as to 2nd tier its a lot easier than keeping track of which title which organization uses for its membership classes. Of course it is. Making stuff up to defend a position is always much easier than having to rely on the facts.

hertz -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/17/2010 1:26:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle This is an excerpt from a letter to the The Guardian, the UK paper from an English Labor MP: "Your insufficiently pessimistic leading article (Dead but not buried, 16 December) fails to refer to the most ineluctable fact about the stalemate between Israel and the Palestinians: demography. The prime minister of Jordan, whom I met in Amman last month, is the latest international statesman to point to what some of us have been saying for quite a while: that it is only a matter of time before the Palestinians (5.2 million at present) will outnumber Israeli Jews (5.7 million) and, as a prominent British Jewish leader said recently, exhibit Israel as an apartheid state. There will be no turning back, the chances of a two-state solution will disappear incrementally, and the one state that remains will not be Israel. Netanyahu's refusal to have a peace policy will become a suicide note." Gerald Kaufman MP Lab, Manchester Gorton http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/17/pessimism-on-israel-peace-policy Israelis are deluded if they believe that the status quo can be maintained indefinitely. Israel has a lot to lose and little to gain by adhering to its current position of effectively ruling out meaningful peace talks. The world will never allow permanent Israeli annexation of the West Bank. You actually believed this BS? The absolute highest estimate of the arab population of the British Mandate in 1948 is 882,000. For that population to have increased to 5.2 million in 62 years is ridiculous. It would require an annual population increase of nearly 4%. Even at the height of the world wide post WWII baby boom the world's population never expanded at greater than a 2.2% rate. You need to remember, DomKen, that Palestine not yet been ethnically cleansed. I know it's a forgone conclusion and all, but it doesn't do to jump the gun.

DomKen -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/17/2010 4:22:51 PM)
Try that again. 1948 was the end of the british mandate before any arabs bacame refugees. I used the largest estimate I've ben able to find. There is simply no way that 882k arabs in 1948 has become 5.2 million now. The family sizes required is ludicrous, especially amidst the claims of terrible health conditions and a high infant mortality rate supposedly caused by the Gaza embargo.

hertz -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/18/2010 4:10:45 AM)
quote: Israel condemns Norway's upgrade of Palestinian standing in Oslo to 'diplomatic delegation' Foreign Ministry official warns that Palestinians won't want to renew peace talks with Israel if they start attaining political goals without negotiations.http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-condemns-norway-s-upgrade-of-palestinian-standing-in-oslo-to-diplomatic-delegation-1.330976 quote: Over the past four months several countries have upgraded the standing of Palestinian representatives. The first country to have done so was none other than the United States. After the U.S., France, Spain, and Portugal also took similar steps. Despite this, the Foreign Ministry has yet to condemn these moves until now. We are rapidly approaching the point of no return. There will be a Palestinian state based on the 1967 ceasefire lines whatever the occupying state wants.

hertz -> RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. (12/18/2010 4:17:24 AM)
quote: Bolivia recognizes Palestinian state Fourth Latin American country recognizes Palestinian state, in line with 1967 borders Ynet Fourth state endorses ‘Palestine’: Bolivia announces Friday that it is officially and fully recognizing the Palestinian state in line with the 1967 borders, according to a report by Palestinian news agency Ma’an. DISCLAIMER: Bolivia is an actual member of NAM.

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