RE: Condi Rice Schools Katie Couric On Iraq

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Politesub53 -> RE: Condi Rice Schools Katie Couric On Iraq (12/18/2010 5:21:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 So now you are asserting Bush didnt lie, despite the intelligence known by the US. The following section, taken from the same link, says much about the Washington viewpoint on evidence. Especially the last paragraph. Firm I am amazed you are pressing on with this nonsense despite me now having posted several different links, one from the UK official inquiry even saying Blair knew BEFORE the invasion. I admire your tenacity, if not your logic. Committee Chairman Pat Roberts told NBC's Tim Russert that "Curveball really provided 98 percent of the assessment as to whether or not the Iraqis had a biological weapon."[This was in despite the fact that "nobody inside the U.S. government had ever actually spoken to the informant—except [for a single] Pentagon analyst, who concluded the man was an alcoholic and utterly useless as a source." After learning the intelligence provided by Curveball was going to be used as the "backbone" of the case for war, the Pentagon analyst wrote a letter to the CIA expressing his concerns. The Deputy of the CIA Counter Proliferation Unit quickly responded by saying: "Let's keep in mind the fact that this war's going to happen regardless of what Curve Ball said or didn't say. The Powers That Be probably aren't terribly interested in whether Curve Ball knows what he's talking about." And I have fisked every single one of your sources and showed you how you are choosing to interpret it only in the way that you wish, not on what they actually say. I call that ideological blindness, and cherry-picking. Take the above quote. How does this prove anything about Bush? First, if you'd been paying attention, you'd seen how the intelligence agencies - and specifically the CIA - (from your own source, no less) fubbed it up pretty badly, in just about all respects. And George Tenent's book and later statements can all be seen as attempts to pass the blame around to someone - anyone - else. Your quote above is about a conversation within the CIA itself. You are assuming that the Deputy of the CIA Counter Proliferation Unit is talking about Bush, when you have no idea if he meant other higher ups in his own organization, nor do you know how many people where above him in that organization, nor if what he said was the truth, or his perception of the truth, or just BS blather. Hell, you don't even know if the conversation ever actually took place, or was just another attempt on the part of members of the CIA to pass the buck. But you choose to take only the worst possible interpretation of everything, and believe all the propaganda that you are exposed to, because - quite simply - that is what you wish to believe, and your confirmation bias is bleeding all over the floor. Firm Not true and you know it. The UK source I quoted, from the Mirror article about the Inquiry named Blair in person. You assume he wouldnt have told Bush, just as you assume no one else told Bush. I assume that the leader of the US would be given the facts by his subordinates. Ive yet to see you post a link showing Bush knew there were WMDS, a fact he claimed to have certain proof of.

Politesub53 -> RE: Condi Rice Schools Katie Couric On Iraq (12/18/2010 5:25:27 PM)
Another quote showing Bush`s aides knew the yellowcake claim was flimsy before his State of the Union speech. Incidentally it blows the OP about Rice and Couric out of the water. No doubt this is just more bias from me or Rice decided not to tell her boss. In early October 2002, George Tenet called Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley to ask him to remove reference to the Niger uranium from a speech Bush was to give in Cincinnati on October 7. This was followed up by a memo asking Hadley to remove another, similar line. Another memo was sent to the White House expressing the CIA's view that the Niger claims were false; this memo was given to both Hadley and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Condi Rice Schools Katie Couric On Iraq (12/18/2010 9:17:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 BTW I dont hate the US as I have said many times before, yet ... Matthew 7:16

FirmhandKY -> RE: Condi Rice Schools Katie Couric On Iraq (12/18/2010 9:20:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 So now you are asserting Bush didnt lie, despite the intelligence known by the US. The following section, taken from the same link, says much about the Washington viewpoint on evidence. Especially the last paragraph. Firm I am amazed you are pressing on with this nonsense despite me now having posted several different links, one from the UK official inquiry even saying Blair knew BEFORE the invasion. I admire your tenacity, if not your logic. Committee Chairman Pat Roberts told NBC's Tim Russert that "Curveball really provided 98 percent of the assessment as to whether or not the Iraqis had a biological weapon."[This was in despite the fact that "nobody inside the U.S. government had ever actually spoken to the informant—except [for a single] Pentagon analyst, who concluded the man was an alcoholic and utterly useless as a source." After learning the intelligence provided by Curveball was going to be used as the "backbone" of the case for war, the Pentagon analyst wrote a letter to the CIA expressing his concerns. The Deputy of the CIA Counter Proliferation Unit quickly responded by saying: "Let's keep in mind the fact that this war's going to happen regardless of what Curve Ball said or didn't say. The Powers That Be probably aren't terribly interested in whether Curve Ball knows what he's talking about." And I have fisked every single one of your sources and showed you how you are choosing to interpret it only in the way that you wish, not on what they actually say. I call that ideological blindness, and cherry-picking. Take the above quote. How does this prove anything about Bush? First, if you'd been paying attention, you'd seen how the intelligence agencies - and specifically the CIA - (from your own source, no less) fubbed it up pretty badly, in just about all respects. And George Tenent's book and later statements can all be seen as attempts to pass the blame around to someone - anyone - else. Your quote above is about a conversation within the CIA itself. You are assuming that the Deputy of the CIA Counter Proliferation Unit is talking about Bush, when you have no idea if he meant other higher ups in his own organization, nor do you know how many people where above him in that organization, nor if what he said was the truth, or his perception of the truth, or just BS blather. Hell, you don't even know if the conversation ever actually took place, or was just another attempt on the part of members of the CIA to pass the buck. But you choose to take only the worst possible interpretation of everything, and believe all the propaganda that you are exposed to, because - quite simply - that is what you wish to believe, and your confirmation bias is bleeding all over the floor. Not true and you know it. The UK source I quoted, from the Mirror article about the Inquiry named Blair in person. You assume he wouldnt have told Bush, just as you assume no one else told Bush. I assume that the leader of the US would be given the facts by his subordinates. Ive yet to see you post a link showing Bush knew there were WMDS, a fact he claimed to have certain proof of. And I've shown you verbatim that you are incorrect in the certainty of your claim - from your very own sources - yet you will not even acknowledge anything less than absolute truth in your position. Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: Condi Rice Schools Katie Couric On Iraq (12/18/2010 9:23:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Another quote showing Bush`s aides knew the yellowcake claim was flimsy before his State of the Union speech. Incidentally it blows the OP about Rice and Couric out of the water. No doubt this is just more bias from me or Rice decided not to tell her boss. In early October 2002, George Tenet called Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley to ask him to remove reference to the Niger uranium from a speech Bush was to give in Cincinnati on October 7. This was followed up by a memo asking Hadley to remove another, similar line. Another memo was sent to the White House expressing the CIA's view that the Niger claims were false; this memo was given to both Hadley and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice. And I've taken every single one of the three sources that you have referenced ... including one that we both agree is relatively unbiased ... and answered you point by point, with examples and analysis, yet you continue to try to throw shite up against the wall to see if anything can stick. I'm not giving you a fourth time. I could present absolute proof that you are wrong, and you'd source something from Prison Planet, no doubt. Firm

Bufotenin -> RE: Condi Rice Schools Katie Couric On Iraq (12/18/2010 10:26:08 PM)
It's both sad and darkly funny that even now people defend the invasion of Iraq as somehow a good idea, while Americans are still being maimed and killed in Afghanistan. Remember Afghanistan? Everyone does now, but the Republican party and Fox news did all they could to make it seem like a done deal back when they were diverting resources necessary to actually stabilize that country and end that theater of war in order to topple the Baath party on a shoestring budget. But that was smart, right? "Cheney and Rumsfeld say we can send our boys in, take-out Saddam, be greeted as liberators, bring Democracy to the Middle-East, and then get back to fixing that massive clusterfuck of a poppy-field that's the Afghan / Pakistan border. What could possibly go wrong???" Hell, the only time that the Bush administration was ever truly "financially conservative" was when they were overriding the recommendations of their commanders and sending American troops to war without adequate manpower or equipment to get the job done without getting blown to pieces. And it took how long and how many casualties to finally get rid of Rumsfeld and approve of a 'troop surge'? If this were an Asian country Rice, Cheney, and Rumsfeld wouldn't be writing books or on tv trying to blow smoke up people's asses, they'd have thrown themselves off a cliff or committed seppuku for their failures. Yeah, I'm sure in 10 or 15 years from now when Iraq is run by a genocidal Theocratic dictator backed by Iran or Syria all the good intentions and spilled American blood will have totally paid-off. Letting the war in Afghanistan go to shit in order for the president and Cheney to settle a vendetta with one of Bush Sr.'s relationships-gone-sour was such a good idea.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Condi Rice Schools Katie Couric On Iraq (12/18/2010 10:28:51 PM)
Paragraphs and white space my friend, paragraphs and white space. Firm

Politesub53 -> RE: Condi Rice Schools Katie Couric On Iraq (12/19/2010 4:35:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Another quote showing Bush`s aides knew the yellowcake claim was flimsy before his State of the Union speech. Incidentally it blows the OP about Rice and Couric out of the water. No doubt this is just more bias from me or Rice decided not to tell her boss. In early October 2002, George Tenet called Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley to ask him to remove reference to the Niger uranium from a speech Bush was to give in Cincinnati on October 7. This was followed up by a memo asking Hadley to remove another, similar line. Another memo was sent to the White House expressing the CIA's view that the Niger claims were false; this memo was given to both Hadley and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice. And I've taken every single one of the three sources that you have referenced ... including one that we both agree is relatively unbiased ... and answered you point by point, with examples and analysis, yet you continue to try to throw shite up against the wall to see if anything can stick. I'm not giving you a fourth time. I could present absolute proof that you are wrong, and you'd source something from Prison Planet, no doubt. Firm Somehow I doubt it. If you had absolute proof your ego would have let you post it.

Politesub53 -> RE: Condi Rice Schools Katie Couric On Iraq (12/19/2010 4:42:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 BTW I dont hate the US as I have said many times before, yet ... Matthew 7:16 Something else you wouldnt be able to prove from my posts. It is noticable that you are now clutching at straws and reverting to being a troll. You my friend are the one who wanted honest debate, yet wouldnt know it if you saw it.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Condi Rice Schools Katie Couric On Iraq (12/19/2010 8:13:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 BTW I dont hate the US as I have said many times before, yet ... Matthew 7:16 Something else you wouldnt be able to prove from my posts. It is noticable that you are now clutching at straws and reverting to being a troll. You my friend are the one who wanted honest debate, yet wouldnt know it if you saw it. Typical lefty deflection. Insult when all of your arguments are destroyed. If "being a troll" means proving you incapable of seeing any side except the one that you are convinced of, without considering the agendas, sources and weasel words of the people who you claim are 100% correct ... and allowing you to look like the ideologue that you are ... then I guess I'm a "troll", and claim the name proudly. "Truth Troll ... the new BS detector." Firm

Politesub53 -> RE: Condi Rice Schools Katie Couric On Iraq (12/19/2010 4:17:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Typical lefty deflection. Insult when all of your arguments are destroyed. If "being a troll" means proving you incapable of seeing any side except the one that you are convinced of, without considering the agendas, sources and weasel words of the people who you claim are 100% correct ... and allowing you to look like the ideologue that you are ... then I guess I'm a "troll", and claim the name proudly. "Truth Troll ... the new BS detector." Firm Typical Firmy deflection. Insult when all of your arguements are destroyed. I never claimed my sources were 100% correct, but you know what at least I provided some, unlike you. I am still waiting for you to destroy anything I have said with an actual fact. So far you have discounted offical sources both from the UK and US inquiry. You have cherry picked what to highlight. You have resorted to accusing me of both hate and bias, despite the fact I have been critical of both Blair, who is way left of me and the UK government, my own. Yet you still fail to see the irony, let alone stupidity of your remarks. Lets get back to the subject of your OP though, Condi Rice. She has disputed evidence from the ex Iraqi Foreign Minister, claiming he was only a single source, yet rushed to accept the single source on yellow cake. She, like you and the rest of the republican leadership, is being selective about what is and isnt admissable. To me thats a lie, to you thats proof.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Condi Rice Schools Katie Couric On Iraq (12/19/2010 4:38:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 BTW I dont hate the US as I have said many times before, Like youve claimed you arent anti-Capitalist. Buy a fucking mirror dude.

Politesub53 -> RE: Condi Rice Schools Katie Couric On Iraq (12/19/2010 4:48:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy Like youve claimed you arent anti-Capitalist. Buy a fucking mirror dude. Anyone with brains could read my previous posts on the topic and see you are full of nonsense, yet again.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Condi Rice Schools Katie Couric On Iraq (12/19/2010 5:23:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Typical lefty deflection. Insult when all of your arguments are destroyed. If "being a troll" means proving you incapable of seeing any side except the one that you are convinced of, without considering the agendas, sources and weasel words of the people who you claim are 100% correct ... and allowing you to look like the ideologue that you are ... then I guess I'm a "troll", and claim the name proudly. "Truth Troll ... the new BS detector." Firm Typical Firmy deflection. Insult when all of your arguements are destroyed. I never claimed my sources were 100% correct, but you know what at least I provided some, unlike you. I am still waiting for you to destroy anything I have said with an actual fact. So far you have discounted offical sources both from the UK and US inquiry. You have cherry picked what to highlight. You have resorted to accusing me of both hate and bias, despite the fact I have been critical of both Blair, who is way left of me and the UK government, my own. Yet you still fail to see the irony, let alone stupidity of your remarks. Lets get back to the subject of your OP though, Condi Rice. She has disputed evidence from the ex Iraqi Foreign Minister, claiming he was only a single source, yet rushed to accept the single source on yellow cake. She, like you and the rest of the republican leadership, is being selective about what is and isnt admissable. To me thats a lie, to you thats proof. Politesub, I don't think you are dumb, stupid or unobservant. I do think, however, that you are blind to what I am even saying, and you see the words and concepts that you are prepared to see, not what I am actually saying. We all get into that mode at times. We are human. No harm, no foul. I'd just ask that you carefully reread this thread, and closely read what I've said, with a fresh prospective, and see if perhaps you missed or misunderstood what I've said, or if perhaps you line of discussion didn't quite match what I was saying. Sometimes I get off on a tangent when arguing with someone, and "lose the bubble". It happens. All I ask is for you to take a break, and approach it a new once it has a chance to get some emotional distance. Firm edited to add: PS, this is an olive branch, if you are willing. I apologize for getting a little harsh with you. Doing so does not help, but I can only plead frustration.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Condi Rice Schools Katie Couric On Iraq (12/19/2010 5:46:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy Like youve claimed you arent anti-Capitalist. Buy a fucking mirror dude. Anyone with brains could read my previous posts on the topic and see you are full of nonsense, yet again. No the nonsense is your lack of understanding of what capitalism is and isnt. Hint: Socialized medicine isnt.

Moonhead -> RE: Condi Rice Schools Katie Couric On Iraq (12/20/2010 4:49:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy Like youve claimed you arent anti-Capitalist. Buy a fucking mirror dude. Anyone with brains could read my previous posts on the topic and see you are full of nonsense, yet again. No the nonsense is your lack of understanding of what capitalism is and isnt. Hint: Socialized medicine isnt. If we're resorting to primary school kibbitzing in this fashion, do you have any clue what socialism is? The NHS system is dependent on tax revenues, and so couldn't exist outside of a capitalist system where people earn money and pay taxes. It's hardly fucking rocket science, is it? As for politesub being an anti capitalist, the lad's pretty high Tory, for God's safe. He might be further to the left than the Kenyan by your lights, but to anybody who knows the first thing about UK politics he's more in the same bag as Ted Heath than Arthur Scargill. That is, not at all socialist in any way shape or form.

Politesub53 -> RE: Condi Rice Schools Katie Couric On Iraq (12/20/2010 9:50:18 AM)
Firm, thank you. Your offer is accepted and reciprocated. We will have to differ on strongly held viewpoints on this. Moonhead, I am glad someone gets what is or isnt right wing. It is entirely possible to have a capitalist based society with social policies. It is what the UK have been doing for the last 200 years or more. Anyone doubting me needs to read up on the Georgian and Victorian philanthropists. Willbur, take a read of the post I have linked to. No doubt you will think I made it almost three years ago, just to "Repudiate" you and your accusations at a future date. http://www.collarchat.com/m_1630443/mpage_3/key_capitalism/tm.htm#

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Condi Rice Schools Katie Couric On Iraq (12/20/2010 2:44:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Firm, thank you. Your offer is accepted and reciprocated. We will have to differ on strongly held viewpoints on this. Moonhead, I am glad someone gets what is or isnt right wing. It is entirely possible to have a capitalist based society with social policies. It is what the UK have been doing for the last 200 years or more. Anyone doubting me needs to read up on the Georgian and Victorian philanthropists. Willbur, take a read of the post I have linked to. No doubt you will think I made it almost three years ago, just to "Repudiate" you and your accusations at a future date. http://www.collarchat.com/m_1630443/mpage_3/key_capitalism/tm.htm# I dont give a rats ass what you wrote three years ago. If you support socialized medicine you arent in favor of capitalism. That goes far beyond "social policies". Case closed.

mnottertail -> RE: Condi Rice Schools Katie Couric On Iraq (12/20/2010 3:42:51 PM)
Oh, like the VA?

Politesub53 -> RE: Condi Rice Schools Katie Couric On Iraq (12/20/2010 3:46:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Firm, thank you. Your offer is accepted and reciprocated. We will have to differ on strongly held viewpoints on this. Moonhead, I am glad someone gets what is or isnt right wing. It is entirely possible to have a capitalist based society with social policies. It is what the UK have been doing for the last 200 years or more. Anyone doubting me needs to read up on the Georgian and Victorian philanthropists. Willbur, take a read of the post I have linked to. No doubt you will think I made it almost three years ago, just to "Repudiate" you and your accusations at a future date. http://www.collarchat.com/m_1630443/mpage_3/key_capitalism/tm.htm# I dont give a rats ass what you wrote three years ago. If you support socialized medicine you arent in favor of capitalism. That goes far beyond "social policies". Case closed. Don`t misunderstand me I don`t give a rats arse if you care or not. Others on here will see you for what you are though.

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