On the Torture of Others ? (Full Version)

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Aneirin -> On the Torture of Others ? (12/17/2010 5:25:11 AM)

I recently did a college paper on the modern use of photography in war, and as a result had to look into the fairly recent happenings at the Abu Ghraib prison East of Baghdad in Iraq those infamous pictures that came out of there and shocked the world.

As a result of my research, I had to amongst others reference Katrin Dauenhauer's, Susan Sontag's and Judith Butler's writings regarding the subject, all women stangely ;

http://a.parsons.edu/~creanm/narrative/narrative_readings/sontag_torture.pdf

http://www-copas.uni-regensburg.de/articles/issue_10/10_08_text_dauenhauer.php

My subject was war photography, but something else came up in my research, was how similar are those scenes from the thousands of images and videos from Abu Ghraib are so similar to witwd, to me, it left an uncomfortable feeling and I am wondering at the similarities to online BDSM pornography and what happened there, and undoubtedly perhaps other places, from time immemorial.

So, unless the perpetrators of those acts were kinksters, are we becoming more submerged in our dark side than is perhaps healthy, or is it what was at one time considered fringe things some people do in private coming more and more into mainstream society, is BDSM and the acts contained there within becoming more acceptable to the majority via media and is this a good thing ?

Do you think that if what was seen to happen at Abu Ghraib is connected with the rising kink culture, moves will be taken to drive it once again underground  and the kinksters villified ?

Is exposure via media, common media, pop music videos, movies etc actually helping or exposing the evils that will be seen to exist in society ?

Is BDSM going to become the scape goat ?





LadyConstanze -> RE: On the Torture of Others ? (12/17/2010 5:32:29 AM)

I think it's the other way round, BDSM has always taken ideas from real tortures, but the big difference is that BDSM is consensual.




DMFParadox -> RE: On the Torture of Others ? (12/17/2010 6:47:03 AM)

This might be a case of the tail wagging the dog. "Torture for play" depends on what our conception of torture is, and we tend to get a lot of that from what we're seeing in actual torture.




DMFParadox -> RE: On the Torture of Others ? (12/17/2010 6:48:48 AM)

I'd like to see if anyone in Abu Ghraib is using fur-lined cuffs or elk skin floggers on the prisoners, though.




crazyml -> RE: On the Torture of Others ? (12/17/2010 7:13:09 AM)

Interesting OP!

I think it's easy to draw a very clear link between the images that came out of the Abu Graib scandal and BDSM porn - since they're both about control, humiliation, causing physical pain. The (obvious I know!) distinction is "consent".

In some cases I've no doubt that the perpetrators were enjoying it - I'm sure that some of them felt a sense of power and superiority (no matter how fucked up that notion is). But I'm sure that there are some cases of this kind of behaviour where the perpetrator didn't enjoy it - but was doing it out of some sense of duty - "I must break these people down in order to gain better intelligence"... (again... no matter how fucked up that logic might be)

I don't think we're becoming more submerged in our dark side - I think that the "dark side" is always there in some people, and occasionally it's exposed briefly. The public reaction to the Abu Graib images leads me to believe that these things aren't likely to become mainstream any time soon though.

So, I don't think that there's a drawable connection between Abu Graib and rising kink culture, or that Kink will suffer as a result.

That's just what I'm thinkin.




OsideGirl -> RE: On the Torture of Others ? (12/17/2010 7:28:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

In some cases I've no doubt that the perpetrators were enjoying it - I'm sure that some of them felt a sense of power and superiority (no matter how fucked up that notion is).
We talk about sadism a lot in the kinky sense. But the true definition of sadism is non-consensual enjoyment of someone else's distress. We all have a little of this in us. It's the part of us that takes glee when someone else gets a speeding ticket. Sadism is also about enjoying the power and control...and that need can grow and feed off of others. It really has nothing to do with BDSM and more to do with human psychology. 




LadyRian -> RE: On the Torture of Others ? (12/17/2010 7:28:48 AM)

 Hello, Op.
Hannah Arendt had some interesting perspectives on the subject you're researching.

I personally don't think the events which occurred at Abu Ghraib were related to BDSM in anything other than a very oblique way: Similar imagery, but as other posters have pointed out, what we do is consensual, and  mainly fantasy tinged with realism. What those people were doing was complete realism, and stark realslism at that.







xssve -> RE: On the Torture of Others ? (12/17/2010 7:32:42 AM)

LC is correct: BDSM is, in a political sense, likely a mockery of medieval torture - there, the goal was control over unseen forces, the Devil, and the goal was to inflict agony - the goal of BDSM is to ultimately, inflict ecstasy.

As for have we "become" more comfortable with our dark side, it was always there, always has been: Rome was perhaps the one of the most sadistic civilizations ever to exist on the face of the earth, and those traditions survived the fall of the Roman Empire and became a feature of the Holy Roman Empire, the Libertines were likely remnants of the Roman aristocracy and it's traditions of treating people like dumb animals.

The Medieval aristocracy and the Church were even worse, not just torture, but starvation and general repression - soil depletion led to cyclic famine that killed perhaps a Third of the population off at any given time - malnutrition in can cause severe personality disorders, ranging from learning disabilities to psychopathy, a stationary phase mutation that may be heritable (see Restak, The Brain).

Those farmers who learned to rotate their crops were likely tortured and killed for witchcraft, accused by their neighbors who had depleted their soil, unable to resist the profit motive - the same thing happened here, in the Twenties dust bowl - soil depletion, and the soil bank program designed to prevent this from recurring is of course, under attack from conservatives at the behest of agribusiness.

The whole history of the United States is a long continuance of the struggle between aristocratic privilege and entitlement and ordinary people trying to live their lives, from Native Americans to, African slaves to Collective bargaining, there is a steady string of massacre and atrocity - Patton's first military action was a charge on WWI veterens, the "Bonus Army", Kent State was merely the most recent, and the first time such a thing was widely reported in the media.

But yes, they may blame kinksters, if shit does happen, that's how magical thinking works: they made going after gays top priority, while at the very same moment committing perhaps the most degenerate atrocity of the late Twentieth century, the saturation of Iraq with depleted Uranium, leading to Thousands of severe birth defects (image google depleted Uranium Munitions), which never gets mentioned on Fox News.

In your most demented BDSM fantasy, you can't even touch that.

If it does, you can be sure it's a facade concealing an attempt to censor and control the media: like Kent State, these things are harder to pull off with a free press, there are numerous groups already out to censor porn, citing all kinds of bad science, but it sells when you have a captive audience - the only effective counter to propaganda is hearing the whole story, it's why the framers of the constitution put free speech at the top of the list.

They may be up against it however, it's a huge business economically, and just like psychopaths, like the ones in the Bush administration who issued the torture memo that led to Abu Graib, in spite of their own trained interrogators advising it was unnecessary, people have been having consensual sex in all sorts of freaky ways since the beginning of time too, loving it, and leading long, healthy, and perfectly sociable lives, and conversely, those who claim to be on some mission from god to stop them.

There's nothing new here, only the spin changes, I'd love to get into the whole issue of Calvinist influence, but I've already gone on too long, but it's a lever used both to dupe people into falling for crypto-fascist propaganda, and to justify atrocities, like Abu Graib.

The short answer is, no, there is no sudden degeneration of "morals" due to the prevalence of porn, including BDSM, rape rates have gone down, they are higher where it's repressed - and, while there may be a downside, there always is, nothing is perfect, the net positive effect is documented, there is no reason to panic - it might be chaotic, to some extent, but it doesn't turn people into sociopaths, it's usually "family values" and the profit motive that do that, and they're always going to be with us too.

But you know, "out of sight, out of mind"...




DarkSteven -> RE: On the Torture of Others ? (12/17/2010 7:34:36 AM)

What's the difference between gentle lovemaking and rape?  It's the same physical act, after all.




xssve -> RE: On the Torture of Others ? (12/17/2010 7:52:10 AM)

For the record, radical feminists are currently on the anti-porn bandwagon, for reasons of their own, but you can't argue with the rape statistics, women have never had it so good, and might not, ever again, if the crypto-fascists get their way - the faction they're supporting for the most part, defines women as ambulatory uterus's, whereas porn is, for better or worse, considerably more democratic - and it seems, mostly for the better.

It feels a bit odd defending porn, it always sounds like rationalization, but it is a relatively recent social phenomena, and there is an increasing body of solid science here; we certainly know what the alternative looks like, it looks a lot like the Dark Ages.

Burgo Partidge's, A History of Orgies is a good place to start, and Angela Carter did quite a bit of theoretical work on the subject from a female POV.




DMFParadox -> RE: On the Torture of Others ? (12/17/2010 8:07:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

LC is correct: BDSM is, in a political sense, likely a mockery of medieval torture - there, the goal was control over unseen forces, the Devil, and the goal was to inflict agony - the goal of BDSM is to ultimately, inflict ecstasy.


Is that what she said? I unwittingly +1'd her. Then again, it's the premise that matters, not the source.




LadyConstanze -> RE: On the Torture of Others ? (12/17/2010 8:12:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

For the record, radical feminists are currently on the anti-porn bandwagon, for reasons of their own, but you can't argue with the rape statistics, women have never had it so good, and might not, ever again, if the crypto-fascists get their way - the faction they're supporting for the most part, defines women as ambulatory uterus's, whereas porn is, for better or worse, considerably more democratic - and it seems, mostly for the better.

It feels a bit odd defending porn, it always sounds like rationalization, but it is a relatively recent social phenomena, and there is an increasing body of solid science here; we certainly know what the alternative looks like, it looks a lot like the Dark Ages.

Burgo Partidge's, A History of Orgies is a good place to start, and Angela Carter did quite a bit of theoretical work on the subject from a female POV.



I love radical feminists, especially the ones who want to decide for other women what they can or can't do with their bodies - I mean if you're opressed it's so much better if a "feminist" does it than if a man does it, right...

<sarcasm off>




Aneirin -> RE: On the Torture of Others ? (12/17/2010 8:13:45 AM)

So, it seems the difference between BDSM and what happened at Abu Ghraib, is just plain old consent, but I cannot help but think others, and others in a position of influence have also connected the two, and that worries me, as things do, as I am naturally a troubleshooter, I consider all possibilities and seek understanding if not solutions when they are available, But to create a safe understanding in anything I trouble shoot, I tend to err on the worst case scenario, so I am ready to counter anything lighter.

But of The Abu Ghraib incident, in viewing many of those photos that have been made available, I did not feel good about them, they made me uneasy and I was apalled at what I saw, which I did connect with Witwd, as it is ok when perhaps seen on Kink. com, pleasurable even, but this stuff disgusts so much, I feel the injustice there. But whilst researching, I hit upon the fact that those who committed the acts were reservists and there wondered  would a reserve soldier have a different thought mechanism to a full time soldier, would the latter be more disciplined so as to not perhaps do what was done.

But of the internet and the kinky porn there, I have come across the simulation and perhaps other of known tortures used by our soldiers, water boarding and imagery recreating the Abu Ghraib imagery, which does make me feel uncomfortable, as it is used in a pleasure sense not the sense that it was for the victims, could this turning evil into pleasure actually dumb down what we know has happened to others, things which might have lead to their deaths even ?

Does re enacting torture in a pleasure sense atualy make the original incident less powerful, does re enactment soften the edges into acceptability, is this a good thing I wonder ?

The course of my study was about the changing face of photography in the theatre of war, and how the camera has been used to tell the truth and lies, my last paper was on the Iwo Jima flag raising which did nothing for Rosenthal, except perhaps wreck his career, but it indicated how photography can be used to instill feeling for and against a subject. This last paper was about the most famous, perhaps even iconic image from Abu ghraib, which gave rise to a piece of art work by my favourite  contempory sculptor, Tim Shaw ;http://www.timshawsculptor.com/

But now the world is aware of what can be done by our soldiers fighting overseas, the digital camera and the interweb have enabled that, but I wonder if we are being primed for the fact that authority does what it can do even by avoiding the Geneva accord of  1949, by refusing to use the word 'torture', even referred to it as that word, I am wondering if this whole affair is perhaps heralding something darker to come for the plebian, a truth perhaps that we have just not seen before.




LadyConstanze -> RE: On the Torture of Others ? (12/17/2010 8:25:34 AM)

quote:

Does re enacting torture in a pleasure sense atualy make the original incident less powerful, does re enactment soften the edges into acceptability, is this a good thing I wonder ?


The rack or cross wasn't fun when used for real, nobody tries to take away from the victims and nothing softens the edges into acceptability, what everybody has said here is that the main difference is CONSENT.

I'm a sadist, I'm not an abuser, because I practise BDSM I require consent.

A very real torture victim does not give consent, it's all in the context...




DMFParadox -> RE: On the Torture of Others ? (12/17/2010 8:31:57 AM)

The difference, as always, is consent.

I'm amazed by the Spetznaz training regimen, and impressed by the people that designed it and the ones that make it through. From all accounts it's far worse than this torture. Again, the difference is only consent, and intent.

Edit: goddamnit not in reply to LC. Replying directly to the OP.




leadership527 -> RE: On the Torture of Others ? (12/17/2010 10:18:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
Do you think that if what was seen to happen at Abu Ghraib is connected with the rising kink culture, moves will be taken to drive it once again underground  and the kinksters villified ?
No. First, I don't think many people are likely to connect Abu Ghraib with "the rising kink culture". Second, the only thing driving the rising kink culture is the internet and that's not likely to stop any time soon. Thirdly, there have always been some tiny percent that vilify <insert other group here>. That percentage won't go away for the kinksters. Nor is it likely to get much larger either. Ultimately, most non-kinksters don't care.

Is exposure via media, common media, pop music videos, movies etc actually helping or exposing the evils that will be seen to exist in society ?
Exposure of BDSM in the media is helping.

Is BDSM going to become the scape goat ?
In some people's eyes (see above). But it always would've been the scape goat for those people.

Honestly, the ultimate truth here is that you, your interests, and your sex life just are not that interesting to other people... ESPECIALLY other people that... well... aren't interested. If they were, then they'd identify as kinky also.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrazyML
I think it's easy to draw a very clear link between the images that came out of the Abu Graib scandal and BDSM porn - since they're both about control, humiliation, causing physical pain. The (obvious I know!) distinction is "consent".
Heh, depending on what BDSM porn you're referring to, there isn't a whole lot of consent in it either. All of which is interesting for me, a guy who isn't into control, pain, or humiliation but who also isn't into "consent". I think that there are lots of links to BDSM from "the dark side". But those links are as tenuous as the link between a rape fantasy and a rape.




cejohnsonsr -> RE: On the Torture of Others ? (12/17/2010 11:13:28 AM)

Please. What happened at Abu Graib was not torture. It was well deserved humiliation at best.

Ed




DommeKeliDallas -> RE: On the Torture of Others ? (12/17/2010 2:22:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

What's the difference between gentle lovemaking and rape?  It's the same physical act, after all.

INTENT




Lucienne -> RE: On the Torture of Others ? (12/17/2010 4:22:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

For the record, radical feminists are currently on the anti-porn bandwagon, for reasons of their own, but you can't argue with the rape statistics, women have never had it so good, and might not, ever again, if the crypto-fascists get their way - the faction they're supporting for the most part, defines women as ambulatory uterus's, whereas porn is, for better or worse, considerably more democratic - and it seems, mostly for the better.

It feels a bit odd defending porn, it always sounds like rationalization, but it is a relatively recent social phenomena, and there is an increasing body of solid science here; we certainly know what the alternative looks like, it looks a lot like the Dark Ages.

Burgo Partidge's, A History of Orgies is a good place to start, and Angela Carter did quite a bit of theoretical work on the subject from a female POV.



I love radical feminists, especially the ones who want to decide for other women what they can or can't do with their bodies - I mean if you're opressed it's so much better if a "feminist" does it than if a man does it, right...

<sarcasm off>



Feminists have been fighting amongst themselves about porn for a generation and the sex positive side (porn isn't inherently bad) has pretty much won. I imagine there are women who would qualify as "radical" feminists in your book who are not anti-porn unless that position is your sole criteria for the "radical" label.




sunshinemiss -> RE: On the Torture of Others ? (12/17/2010 5:55:46 PM)

I remember hearing this NPR report.  http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1872753

I'm off to an event, but perhaps will stop back for more discussion.  What an interesting topic.  Thank you Aneirin.
best,
sunshine




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