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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 12:22:04 PM   
Louve00


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983


quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

So the key to getting a job is the presence of a criminal history. I can't help wondering how well that works for someone with a criminal history and a college or technical degree. Have a degree and can't find a job? Commit a crime. Sad.


But they're supposed to have served their time, paid their debt to society, and so are on an equal level as everyone else, right?

Therein lies a huge problem. The public expects corrections to rehabilitate an inmate, but all the rehabilitation in the world won't make a single difference if the general public won't let that person escape their past mistakes.


I couldn't agree with this post more. 


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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 3:12:40 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

If labor is involuntary and one can't choose his profession or negotiate his wages, what's the difference between this and slavery?

Slaves are property.

K.

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 3:31:49 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I believe that license plates are all made by inmates.

The only issue is that if you use inmates for a specific job, then you impact the other workers in that industry, who must now compete against people who do not need to pay for food, rent, or utilities.



Some states do have prisoners making license plates. And, you are correct that any job a prisoner does is a job that a civilian isn't getting paid to do.

That is why when people think they have a simple answer to a problem it is usually out of some personal frustration or a lack of understanding.

Prisoners working takes jobs from law abiding citizens. Prisoners not working does nothing to prepare prisoners to do well in the real world once they are released. Which most of them will and should be.



To the OP I wouldn't worry too much that prisoners are living a life of leisure

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 3:59:11 PM   
lazarus1983


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

I'd like some suggestions about what kinds of work we could allocate to prisoners, and whether we should make the burden lighter for female prisoners.

Slackers who don't hit productivity targets will be penalised not with beatings or withdrawal of food, but priveleges such as library/tv-room access are withdrawn until such time as the laggard has made good his backlog. If he stops working altogether, he can just sit in isolation, and I mean sensory isolation too, no books, no visits from the prison psychologist, minimal light, minimal heat, no flavouring of any kind in his food etc. Just a security monitor high in his cell.


Why on earth would you WANT to have a lighter burden on female inmates? Because they're female? Is that some kind of mitigating circumstance? Is their crime lessened because of their gender? Is the person less dead, or less stolen from, because their assailant was a woman?

And that's a great idea for punishment if your goal is to turn them into animals. That's about all you'd accomplish.

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 6:30:57 PM   
Jaybeee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I believe that license plates are all made by inmates.

The only issue is that if you use inmates for a specific job, then you impact the other workers in that industry, who must now compete against people who do not need to pay for food, rent, or utilities.



To the OP I wouldn't worry too much that prisoners are living a life of leisure



Please elaborate.

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 6:34:46 PM   
Jaybeee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

I'd like some suggestions about what kinds of work we could allocate to prisoners, and whether we should make the burden lighter for female prisoners.

Slackers who don't hit productivity targets will be penalised not with beatings or withdrawal of food, but priveleges such as library/tv-room access are withdrawn until such time as the laggard has made good his backlog. If he stops working altogether, he can just sit in isolation, and I mean sensory isolation too, no books, no visits from the prison psychologist, minimal light, minimal heat, no flavouring of any kind in his food etc. Just a security monitor high in his cell.


Why on earth would you WANT to have a lighter burden on female inmates? Because they're female? Is that some kind of mitigating circumstance? Is their crime lessened because of their gender? Is the person less dead, or less stolen from, because their assailant was a woman?


I just don't want some legal team arguing that the fact that women, being on average weaker than men, means they should have to produce less when it comes to recompensing society. How would we nullify that case?



< Message edited by Jaybeee -- 12/21/2010 6:35:57 PM >

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 7:17:12 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

I just don't want some legal team arguing that the fact that women, being on average weaker than men, means they should have to produce less when it comes to recompensing society. How would we nullify that case?



Oh good grief.  The only way that argument works is if you are talking about them raising crops using hand plows and horses.  Using modern farming technology men and women will produce equal amounts. 

There are very very few jobs that women cannot do equally to men.  And none of those are ones that you are going to be having prisoners do. 

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 8:32:25 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee


quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I believe that license plates are all made by inmates.

The only issue is that if you use inmates for a specific job, then you impact the other workers in that industry, who must now compete against people who do not need to pay for food, rent, or utilities.



To the OP I wouldn't worry too much that prisoners are living a life of leisure



Please elaborate.


Well, I assume you're worried that they've committed crimes and now they have a great life. Prison is incredibly boring and at the same time dangerous. It's not some great life. Most prisoners would and do jump at the chance to be working. You should be more concerned with whether or not they are given a chance to prepare themselves for the outside world. Not just for them but for us.


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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/21/2010 9:23:30 PM   
Zevar


Posts: 801
Status: offline 		Greetings Jaybeee:

In most cases the daily management of incarcerated populations are systematically controlled with the best interest of the personnel first and foremost. Reducing further violence within the said prison is usually crucial to all effective management of inmates. The issue of reformation continues to be studied with the goal of creating environments for personnel that are indicative of safety at the helm. When prisons place the safety of their personnel at the forefront this creates a more appealing aspect when employment recruitment is considered.

Mandatory labor requirements for incarcerated populations of some individuals can produce an ordered environment and have some measurable benefits for society. However, in most cases the fact that labor is a requirement has not proven to have pragmatic outcomes in some case studies. Theory is not always transferable into the inner world of prisons nor among those who make up the demographics of the populations.

Societal rules are interpreted differently, as are the rights of prisoners the primary focus for most incarcerated populations. Not many incarcerated individuals believe they have been treated fairly for the crime(s) committed. There are NO easy answers in the management of prisons i.e. inmates. What does produce effective outcomes is unusually duplicated and in some instances becomes standardized uniformity within the various departments among the Department of Corrections.

Psychologically speaking, there are far too many underserved inmates that would function more productively if all prisons were staffed with trained professionals that have the proven knowledge needed to serve this type of patient. However, issue after issues arises that tend to prevent this type of psychological management or to become an integrated element in the direct services offered to create a more cohesive population.

In most instances, when those among the prison populations are treated for their mental health issues on a regular basis by licensed trained psychological professionals there are indisputable outcomes that lend to an effectual management of the overall populations of inmates. However budgetary issues tend to cloud the allocation of funds that are needed to compensate trained professionals for these sort of employment positions, more than not.

Not all prisons are privatized, yet most are, thus the management of these sort of prisons are usually managed by way of internal contractual guidelines, which are IMO usually questionable at best. With the increasing issues related to rising statistics of crimes, it is wise to never forsake what produces the most effective outcome when considering the management of prison populations.

If it were so simple to apply a mandatory rule of labor to all inmates in all prisons and then expect this to be some form of a panacea, obviously not many would reject such a notion nor the application of such theory. However, it is back to the drawing board when considering the most effectual management of prison populations. Regrettably in many instances it is the drone of the T.V. in the green or gray room that lends to the management of inmates, 24/7/365.

Take care!

< Message edited by Zevar -- 12/21/2010 9:28:46 PM >

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/22/2010 2:20:15 AM   
Jaybeee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

I just don't want some legal team arguing that the fact that women, being on average weaker than men, means they should have to produce less when it comes to recompensing society. How would we nullify that case?



Oh good grief.  The only way that argument works is if you are talking about them raising crops using hand plows and horses.  Using modern farming technology men and women will produce equal amounts. 

There are very very few jobs that women cannot do equally to men.  And none of those are ones that you are going to be having prisoners do. 


Do tell, what are those job titles?

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/22/2010 2:30:46 AM   
Jaybeee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee


quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I believe that license plates are all made by inmates.

The only issue is that if you use inmates for a specific job, then you impact the other workers in that industry, who must now compete against people who do not need to pay for food, rent, or utilities.



To the OP I wouldn't worry too much that prisoners are living a life of leisure



Please elaborate.


Well, I assume you're worried that they've committed crimes and now they have a great life. Prison is incredibly boring and at the same time dangerous. It's not some great life. Most prisoners would and do jump at the chance to be working. You should be more concerned with whether or not they are given a chance to prepare themselves for the outside world. Not just for them but for us.


70% of jailbirds re-offend. If you judge the system by the criterion of how well it reintegrates them post-incarceration, it is already failing quite dismally indeed. Re-offence, or Recidivism, is a THIRD price that society pays, in addition to the:

1) original crime;
2) financial cost of feeding/sheltering them during incarceration.

Finally, just how do you know prisoners are bored?

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/22/2010 2:39:18 AM   
Edwynn


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Just to be clear on the matter, all of you who respond to this nonsense understand that you are replying to an avowed and proud misogynist, who presents yet some furtherance of his cause by presenting such silly propositions as this, right?



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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/22/2010 3:33:28 AM   
lickenforyou


Posts: 379
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee


quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee


quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I believe that license plates are all made by inmates.

The only issue is that if you use inmates for a specific job, then you impact the other workers in that industry, who must now compete against people who do not need to pay for food, rent, or utilities.



To the OP I wouldn't worry too much that prisoners are living a life of leisure



Please elaborate.


Well, I assume you're worried that they've committed crimes and now they have a great life. Prison is incredibly boring and at the same time dangerous. It's not some great life. Most prisoners would and do jump at the chance to be working. You should be more concerned with whether or not they are given a chance to prepare themselves for the outside world. Not just for them but for us.


70% of jailbirds re-offend. If you judge the system by the criterion of how well it reintegrates them post-incarceration, it is already failing quite dismally indeed. Re-offence, or Recidivism, is a THIRD price that society pays, in addition to the:

1) original crime;
2) financial cost of feeding/sheltering them during incarceration.

Finally, just how do you know prisoners are bored?


I know people that have been to prison and I know some prison guards. Boredom is one of prisoners biggest complaints.

California has 70% recidivism rate. Other states are lower. Also, older prisoners have a lower recidivism rate. Do we know exactly why that is? Can it be applied to younger prisoners?

I agree that prisoners would be better off working, but that too costs society.

And, what about the innocent man who is caught in the system? Or, the mentally challenged, or the undiagosed mentally ill prisoners. Should they also be put in solitary confinement with total sensory deprivation if they refuse to work?




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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/22/2010 6:00:19 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

If labor is involuntary and one can't choose his profession or negotiate his wages, what's the difference between this and slavery?


I can't say for sure today, but 20 years ago it was voluntary.


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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/22/2010 6:04:35 AM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

If labor is involuntary and one can't choose his profession or negotiate his wages, what's the difference between this and slavery?


I can't say for sure today, but 20 years ago it was voluntary.



Oh I'm sure it's voluntary in prisons, I was referring to the OP.

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/22/2010 7:34:49 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

Do tell, what are those job titles?


SWAT team comes to mind.  On average women are smaller than men.  It is not always the case.  I doubt that you want to put prisoners on the local SWAT team. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


Just to be clear on the matter, all of you who respond to this nonsense understand that you are replying to an avowed and proud misogynist, who presents yet some furtherance of his cause by presenting such silly propositions as this, right?


So you think he is trolling for women hating things.  Entirely possible.  Thanks for the heads up.

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/22/2010 7:54:13 AM   
tazzygirl


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In the United States, 68% percent of males and 58% of females are rearrested, and 53% and 39% respectively are re-incarcerated (2003).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recidivism


U.S. Prisons Overcrowded and Violent, Recidivism High
Confronting Confinement, a June 2006 U.S. prison study by the bipartisan Commission on Safety and Abuse in America's Prisons, reports than on any given day more than 2 million people are incarcerated in the United States, and that over the course of a year, 13.5 million spend time in prison or jail. African Americans are imprisoned at a rate roughly seven times higher than whites, and Hispanics at a rate three times higher than whites. Within three years of their release, 67% of former prisoners are rearrested and 52% are re-incarcerated, a recidivism rate that calls into question the effectiveness of America's corrections system, which costs taxpayers $60 billion a year.

Read more: U.S. Prisons Overcrowded and Violent, Recidivism High — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0933722.html#ixzz18r7jxJ00



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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/22/2010 8:05:49 AM   
Jaybeee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

Do tell, what are those job titles?


SWAT team comes to mind.  On average women are smaller than men.  It is not always the case.  I doubt that you want to put prisoners on the local SWAT team. 


Women are on average smaller than men? Thank you so much, Wondering Woman.

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/22/2010 8:20:38 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

Do tell, what are those job titles?


SWAT team comes to mind.  On average women are smaller than men.  It is not always the case.  I doubt that you want to put prisoners on the local SWAT team. 


Women are on average smaller than men? Thank you so much, Wondering Woman.


Yep, you are being a trolling woman hater. 

If the requirement for being on the team to kick in doors is five foot eight, then yeah, you are going to have more men meet that qualification than women.  You are also going to have more white guys than Asian guys meet that qualification. 

Regardless of that, you are still not going to be putting prisoners on the door kicking team. 

Once upon a time the reason that the sizes in genders mattered was because of what it takes to hold a plow or a sword all day.  However, that no longer applies.  Technology has changed the need for the ability to do those things.  Size really does not matter for driving a combine or shooting a gun. 

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

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RE: Putting prisoners of both genders to work - 12/22/2010 8:48:24 AM   
Edwynn


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< Message edited by Edwynn -- 12/22/2010 8:49:37 AM >

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