RE: what those billionaires are spending $$ on (Full Version)

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willbeurdaddy -> RE: what those billionaires are spending $$ on (12/28/2010 7:22:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


I rubbished your claims that the Irish crisis was "strictly a [local] banking crisis", and had nothing to do with "tax policy", which I have have kindly outlined above in bold print for you, just in case you have forgotten them.



Speak English please. I didnt forget anything. What you quoted if mine is 100% correct.Your obfuscation wont work. Go ahead and find ANYTHING that says that Ireland's pro-business environment and corporate tax structure had ANYTHING to do with the current problems, as you claimed. Until you do, STFU.

Wrong on Israel, wrong on Ireland, wrong on Islam. About time you made some asinine claim about Iceland I guess.




tweakabelle -> RE: what those billionaires are spending $$ on (12/28/2010 11:53:38 PM)

quote:

Willbeurdaddy
What you quoted if mine is 100% correct..


Wow! If Willbe100%rightalways said it, then it must be "100% correct"!^ At last, a rock of absolute certainty in an ever-changing uncertain universe! I could be so willing for that!

And here was silly me thinking that the messianic tone that characterises His Wilfulness' posts was an attempt to hide the glaring absence of substance, that the self righteous bombast was there to divert attention from the lack of supporting evidence.

When all the time I was in the presence of a Being with such astonishing, God-like powers of prescience ….. Just goes to show I guess!

Pondering my fate as I quaked and shivered in the wake of such a quasi-Divine revelation, I wondered if I was to be condemned to Willpurgatory for an eternity. I’m able to report that I stoically resisted the urge to throw myself onto my knees abjectly and beg Your Cosmic forgiveness and indulgence for my errant wilfulness. Instead my mind, nay, my entire consciousness was flooded with but a single radiant image......

The image, from Monty Python’s "Life of Brian”, was Mary’s response to the insistence of a credulous rabble that her son Brian was truly the Messiah. And her immortal words were:

“He’s not the Messiah! He’s just a vewy naughty boy!”

Hallelujah! Praise the Willy!*


^ The Book of Will, Post # 61
*no wilful pun and no matter what you think, definitely not that willy!




Edwynn -> RE: what those billionaires are spending $$ on (12/29/2010 12:41:13 AM)



FR

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Go ahead and find ANYTHING that says that Ireland's pro-business environment and corporate tax structure had ANYTHING to do with the current problems, ...




Hmm, I think I just saw something recently on that ...

Oh yeah, here it is:

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

"But the most striking similarity between Ireland and America was “regulatory imprudence”: the people charged with keeping banks safe didn’t do their jobs. In Ireland, regulators looked the other way in part because the country was trying to attract foreign business, in part because of cronyism: bankers and property developers had close ties to the ruling party. "




Regulators looking the other way is part and parcel of a pro-business environment by most accounts, as the above report indicates.

But what is that "cronyism" thing he's talking about? Is that something like when the CEO of an oil services company leaves the firm to become the VP of a country that is about to enter into a venture resulting in a huge no-bid contract award to that company, or like when the CEO of an investment bank leaves the firm to become the treasury secretary of a country that is about to cover the rigged bets his company made, or something like that? That all sounds pretty pro-business to me, so should be considered a good thing.

Whatever that country is, I think it would be considered about the most pro-business country in the world by any estimation. And it being that the more pro-business country is, the better, I bet that country is doing great all the time-  low deficit, low unemployment, the whole nine yards.














DMFParadox -> RE: what those billionaires are spending $$ on (12/29/2010 2:36:01 AM)

In this thread: a bunch of people who don't understand how money works.

If billionaires buy luxury items - or locks and fences - or throw insane parties - they are putting that money back into circulation. When they spend too much money on stupid mushrooms, they are making the mushroom growers and everyone else the growers pay money to happier.

If, however, they save their billions, then they cause deflation. Less money in circulation means all money is worth more.

Past a certain point, there's no way they can lose money the way the system is set up, except to invest poorly or give a shit ton away. America has means of allowing money to work for you; which is why wealth gets concentrated, money attracts more money. That's not a bad thing.

The rich in America face a dilemma: how can you truly contribute back to society? Give your money away the wrong way, and you can cause more havoc and damnation than just keeping it. Invest money in infrastructure and social causes, you must monitor those investments; thieves and scoundrels are literally everywhere. And if there's one thing rich people are hungry to retain, it's their time. Further, anything you attempt to grow, be it a person, an institution or an idea, you take the risk of unhealthy growth; building a house of cards, or dependence on you, or opportunity costs.

Some rich people do this. Some buy truffles. But bottom line motherfuckers, capitalism still works as long as both rich and poor have true freedom to act, and not just in name. Capitalism stops working when institutions restrict freedoms; which is why busting up monopolies is a good thing, most of the time.




KenDckey -> RE: what those billionaires are spending $$ on (12/29/2010 4:55:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slave4bull

Strange....I don't see any "...and so a huge factory was built in Ohio, with the goal of employing thousands of blue collar workers who, thanks to Republicans, have all lost their jobs."  LOL!!  No,only tea party retards belive that giving billionaires more money yet will result in MORE JOBS!! Those of us with brains know that they will spend their money, gained on the backs of the rest of us on....truffles.
And Happy Holidays, Merry Xmans, etc to all:)

http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/111682/the-years-biggest-luxury-buys



Sounds like someone wants to dictate what people buy.   Where it is anyone's business I just don't know.  




Hippiekinkster -> RE: what those billionaires are spending $$ on (12/29/2010 4:49:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


It's not a question of turning a profit. They can do that. Offshoring is all about maximizing profit. The notion that the sole function of a corporation is to maximize the return on investment for shareholders has become so ingrained that many people believe that it is against the law for a corporation NOT to do so.



It is against the law to not act in the best interests of the shareholders. If their best interests are served by maximizing current profits, that it would be illegal to not do so.

Uh-huh. What law would that be?




Charles6682 -> RE: what those billionaires are spending $$ on (12/29/2010 5:43:01 PM)

The free market should be fair.If all it does is make the rich become richer and the poor become poorer,then forget about it.Yes,the government does have a role in regulating the market.We dont need a bunch of elistists bringing down the entire American economy so a few elistists can have their golden parachutes on the back of the true working people.Call it whatever you want,who really cares.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: what those billionaires are spending $$ on (12/29/2010 6:15:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


It's not a question of turning a profit. They can do that. Offshoring is all about maximizing profit. The notion that the sole function of a corporation is to maximize the return on investment for shareholders has become so ingrained that many people believe that it is against the law for a corporation NOT to do so.



It is against the law to not act in the best interests of the shareholders. If their best interests are served by maximizing current profits, that it would be illegal to not do so.

Uh-huh. What law would that be?



A whole body of state and Federal fiduciary laws.




truckinslave -> RE: what those billionaires are spending $$ on (12/29/2010 6:35:56 PM)

"Ok........how do you explain the fact that the tax rate in the late 50's and early 60's was 85% for the top income brackets?"

Nominal. As opposed to "actual" or "effective".

Strange that anyone can think high taxes can create jobs




willbeurdaddy -> RE: what those billionaires are spending $$ on (12/29/2010 6:46:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

"Ok........how do you explain the fact that the tax rate in the late 50's and early 60's was 85% for the top income brackets?"

Nominal. As opposed to "actual" or "effective.

Strange that anyone can think high taxes can create jobs


Ahhhh, those were the days. Deduct sales tax, deduct credit card interest, non-recourse loans for depreciating assets. Too bad I was broke and homeless for most of those years!




Hippiekinkster -> RE: what those billionaires are spending $$ on (12/29/2010 6:53:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


It's not a question of turning a profit. They can do that. Offshoring is all about maximizing profit. The notion that the sole function of a corporation is to maximize the return on investment for shareholders has become so ingrained that many people believe that it is against the law for a corporation NOT to do so.



It is against the law to not act in the best interests of the shareholders. If their best interests are served by maximizing current profits, that it would be illegal to not do so.

Uh-huh. What law would that be?



A whole body of state and Federal fiduciary laws.
Uh-huh. Where in the US Code would this be?




truckinslave -> RE: what those billionaires are spending $$ on (12/29/2010 6:56:10 PM)

"if you raise taxes for them, they will simply get out of the country "

The economically ignorant do not realize that both money and skills (medical expertise, e.g.) are highly mobile.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: what those billionaires are spending $$ on (12/29/2010 6:57:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


It's not a question of turning a profit. They can do that. Offshoring is all about maximizing profit. The notion that the sole function of a corporation is to maximize the return on investment for shareholders has become so ingrained that many people believe that it is against the law for a corporation NOT to do so.



It is against the law to not act in the best interests of the shareholders. If their best interests are served by maximizing current profits, that it would be illegal to not do so.

Uh-huh. What law would that be?



A whole body of state and Federal fiduciary laws.
Uh-huh. Where in the US Code would this be?



Federal fiduciary law relates to specific transactions, state law to general director and corporate officer's fiduciary obligations.

google is your friend. try "duty of care" and "duty of loyalty",




truckinslave -> RE: what those billionaires are spending $$ on (12/29/2010 7:01:00 PM)

Brevity. Wit.




rulemylife -> RE: what those billionaires are spending $$ on (12/29/2010 8:22:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

A whole body of state and Federal fiduciary laws.


How about  if you indulge us and post a few of those.







rulemylife -> RE: what those billionaires are spending $$ on (12/29/2010 8:25:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Federal fiduciary law relates to specific transactions, state law to general director and corporate officer's fiduciary obligations.

google is your friend. try "duty of care" and "duty of loyalty",


It's your friend as well Willbeur, especially since you made the claim.

The burden of proof is on you.

So show the proof.




Hillwilliam -> RE: what those billionaires are spending $$ on (12/30/2010 12:16:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


It's not a question of turning a profit. They can do that. Offshoring is all about maximizing profit. The notion that the sole function of a corporation is to maximize the return on investment for shareholders has become so ingrained that many people believe that it is against the law for a corporation NOT to do so.



It is against the law to not act in the best interests of the shareholders. If their best interests are served by maximizing current profits, that it would be illegal to not do so.

Uh-huh. What law would that be?



A whole body of state and Federal fiduciary laws.

Said laws are largely ignored in My personal experience.




Hippiekinkster -> RE: what those billionaires are spending $$ on (12/31/2010 4:53:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Federal fiduciary law relates to specific transactions, state law to general director and corporate officer's fiduciary obligations.

google is your friend. try "duty of care" and "duty of loyalty",


It's your friend as well Willbeur, especially since you made the claim.

The burden of proof is on you.

So show the proof.

Just one citation of a law, Wilbur, Fed or state. Here's what you said:"It is against the law to not act in the best interests of the shareholders. If their best interests are served by maximizing current profits, that it would be illegal to not do so."

Just one citation of the US Code or a state code, wilbur.






willbeurdaddy -> RE: what those billionaires are spending $$ on (12/31/2010 4:58:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


It's not a question of turning a profit. They can do that. Offshoring is all about maximizing profit. The notion that the sole function of a corporation is to maximize the return on investment for shareholders has become so ingrained that many people believe that it is against the law for a corporation NOT to do so.



It is against the law to not act in the best interests of the shareholders. If their best interests are served by maximizing current profits, that it would be illegal to not do so.

Uh-huh. What law would that be?



A whole body of state and Federal fiduciary laws.

Said laws are largely ignored in My personal experience.


Your "personal experience" is bullshit. Tell it to Ken Lay and J Clifford Baxter.




AnimusRex -> RE: what those billionaires are spending $$ on (12/31/2010 5:37:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Federal fiduciary law relates to specific transactions, state law to general director and corporate officer's fiduciary obligations.

google is your friend. try "duty of care" and "duty of loyalty",


As you wish. I googled "Do shareholders have a duty to maximize profits?"
and in 0.11 seconds found this:

In a recent speech at the Netroots Nation, Senator Al Franken tried to frighten the crowd by trotting out the corporate bogeyman that greedily makes decisions without regard to anything other than profit. Franken told them: “it is literally malfeasance for a corporation not to do everything it legally can to maximize its profits.” Individuals across the political spectrum share this common canard. Those on the right, like Milton Friedman, argue that the shareholder-wealth-maximization requirement prohibits firms from acting in ways that benefit, say, local communities or the environment, at the expense of the bottom line. Those on the left, like Franken, argue that the duty to shareholders makes corporations untrustworthy and dangerous. They are both wrong.

While the duty to maximize shareholder value may be a useful shorthand for a corporate manager to think about how to act on a day to day basis, this is not legally required or enforceable. The only constraint on board decision making is a pair of duties – the “duty of care” and the “duty of loyalty.” The duty of care requires boards to be well informed and to make deliberate decisions after careful consideration of the issues. Importantly, board members are entitled to rely on experts and corporate officers for their information, can easily comply with duty of care obligations by spending shareholder money on lawyers and process, and, in any event, are routinely indemnified against damages for any breaches of this duty. The duty of loyalty self evidently requires board members to put the interests of the corporation ahead of their own personal interest.

Under this legal regime, it is not malfeasance for boards or corporate chiefs to make decisions that do not maximize shareholder value. Boards are protected by the so-called “business judgment rule” from claims that their decisions were the wrong ones. The business judgment rule protects corporate decisions unless the plaintiffs can show a breach of one of the two duties. In other words, unless there is a plausible story the board’s decision was woefully uninformed or was tainted by self interest, a shareholder challenge to a corporate decision will fail.

The business judgment rule means that decisions that turn out badly for firms are protected. This encourages risk taking and avoids the hindsight bias of litigation in cases where well-meaning and rational decisions do not maximize shareholder value. It also gives boards wiggle room to take more than just profit into consideration when setting corporate policy. As such, firms can tailor their decisions to the demands of the marketplace. One company might believe that employees, customers, and shareholders (the three big constituencies of any firm) prefer a decision to keep open a more expensive factory in Michigan, while another company might believe these stakeholders prefer a decision to move its manufacturing base to Mexico. Both are lawful.
Posted by Todd Henderson on July 27, 2010



Maybe it is because I am an asshole, but I thought it amusing that Wilbeur and Al Franken were saying the same thing.




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