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Submissive or Slave - 4/30/2006 3:06:26 PM

losttreasure

Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
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This question isn't regarding the oft debated difference between a submissive and a slave, but, as a newcomer to the lifestyle I am curious as to how the specific status of the "bottom" (and by default, the "top") is determined.

I have noticed a propensity for Dominants, whether they identify themselves as "Master/Mistress Something-or-other" or "Distinguishing-Adjective Dom/Domme", to quite often state in their profiles that they are seeking a "submissive and/or slave"... not specifying solely one or the other.

I do recognize that there are nearly as many definitions of submissive and slave as there are participants in the lifestyle, but at some point during communication between a Dominant and a submissive, a line is drawn determining whether the sought-after relationship will be primarily one of D/s or one of M/s.

The question I have is whether participants typically begin communications with a clear goal in mind, or whether the point at which that line is clearly drawn is allowed to organically grow out of the interaction?

While hardly an ideal example... though my profile clearly indentifies myself as a submissive, I have noticed a tendency for those who communicate with me to make overt references to activities, items and attitudes that clearly indicate... assume, if you will, discussion of an M/s relationship (i.e., collars, leashes, no limits, contracts, etc.). This always surprises me as there has never been any query of me whether that is what I either seek or desire.

As it appears that it is fairly widely accepted that "all slaves are submissive, but not all submissives are slaves", it would seem to me that when approaching someone who has identified themselves as a submissive, there would need to be a dialog regarding this.

Perhaps the majority of those who have contact me are simply showing bad form by not soliciting from me whether I have the desire to exceed submission and enter into slavery... but rather than assume it's just poor manners, I thought I'd gather some experienced opinions.

Do you typically ask or are you asked whether you desire a D/s relationship or M/s?

Post #: 1

RE: Submissive or Slave - 4/30/2006 3:15:53 PM

Reasonable

Posts: 459
Joined: 4/20/2006
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My definition of a slave is simply this:

One who finds the qualities in me,and what I have to offer in an overall sense to be attractive enough .........that she submits herself more or less unconditonally to my care. I realize that there are clear and practical limitations to my power-and respect that as proper.

That responsibility in any sort of relationships are mutual,and balanced. And that if I get too big of a head- I'm going to blow it.

Enough said.

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 2

RE: Submissive or Slave - 4/30/2006 3:17:32 PM

truesub4u

Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

I'm one of the off beats... I think D/s is non live in relationships.... where when living together... growing more together as live ins than non live ins.. it's more of a M/s relationship. Though some non live ins can make a M/s relationship work... alot more can't. So as for me... personally.... it's D/s first.... and one day.. might be a M/s relationship. But normally... when one has sought me out... they seem to demmand that I think of them as a Master.. when they've not shown me they can Master making a cup of coffee... those are the ones I politely tell to seek elsewhere....

_____________________________

Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 3

RE: Submissive or Slave - 4/30/2006 3:18:48 PM

BrianSenior

Posts: 88
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

I start out asking about them, what or who they are. Wouldnt matter if they consider themselves a submissive, or slave- if they are not or we can not communicate as a friend, then we will not be able to do anything else. I ask little things to know them. After I get to know them a bit, then we can speak of likes or dis likes. I might use the list they have to see more about them, if they say they like to cook- what do you like to cook the most, what about cooking do you like. Since as you stated there is not real set defintion, better for us to talk, and to come to our own assesment. During the conversations I will ask what they are looking for, or if they are looking for anything. ~BK~

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 4

RE: Submissive or Slave - 4/30/2006 3:41:48 PM

losttreasure

Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reasonable

My definition of a slave is simply this:

One who finds the qualities in me,and what I have to offer in an overall sense to be attractive enough .........that she submits herself more or less unconditonally to my care. I realize that there are clear and practical limitations to my power-and respect that as proper.

That responsibility in any sort of relationships are mutual,and balanced. And that if I get too big of a head- I'm going to blow it.

Enough said.

Reasonable... I guess a simpler way of asking this would be, if you were seeking a relationship (which I understand that you are not), would you even contact a woman who has identified herself as a submissive? And if so, do you clearly state upfront that you are desiring a relationship that leads to near unconditional submission... that you are wanting a slave?

(in reply to Reasonable)

Post #: 5

RE: Submissive or Slave - 4/30/2006 3:50:16 PM

Phoenixandnika

Posts: 748
Joined: 4/22/2005
From: Aberdeen Maryland
Status: offline

Personally, I like to get to know someone who approaches myself or Phoenix. Through conversation I can typically get an idea of what they are looking for, expectations, ect. I personally hate labels. Always have. They make it easy for society at large but I refuse to live my life in order to fit into someone elses "defintion" or "label".

I also think the debate between submissive vs. slave and dominate vs. Master makes these labels even more confusing for some people.

I think expecting people to be cut and dry is unfair to yourself and to them. Perhaps if our society where not so "fast paced" and "now oriented" people would relize that socialization and time is the key to who and what someone truly is.

I mean think about it. How many times have you talked to someone and they tell you " I am a slave" or " I am a dominate" then the more you get to know them you relize. Oh my there is NOT a submissive or dominate bone in their body!

Nika{Phoenix}

< Message edited by Phoenixandnika -- 4/30/2006 3:51:17 PM >

_____________________________

"Life is neither a bed of roses nor a carpet of thorns, it's just what you make of it."

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 6

RE: Submissive or Slave - 4/30/2006 3:52:39 PM

losttreasure

Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u

I'm one of the off beats... I think D/s is non live in relationships.... where when living together... growing more together as live ins than non live ins.. it's more of a M/s relationship. Though some non live ins can make a M/s relationship work... alot more can't. So as for me... personally.... it's D/s first.... and one day.. might be a M/s relationship.

I don't feel that housing arrangements determine the level of the relationship, but I do think they have a definite impact. That being said, I couldn't agree more with your final statement. ;)

quote:

But normally... when one has sought me out... they seem to demmand that I think of them as a Master.. when they've not shown me they can Master making a cup of coffee... those are the ones I politely tell to seek elsewhere....

*laughs* I don't waste my breath (figuratively) on those.

(in reply to truesub4u)

Post #: 7

RE: Submissive or Slave - 4/30/2006 3:53:50 PM

Reasonable

Posts: 459
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline

My house is not in order for a slave at this time-work takes priority. I give and expect full disclosure.

Submissives with caveats are not on my interest list-nor will they be.

< Message edited by Reasonable -- 4/30/2006 3:54:19 PM >

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 8

RE: Submissive or Slave - 4/30/2006 3:57:19 PM

Phoenixandnika

Posts: 748
Joined: 4/22/2005
From: Aberdeen Maryland
Status: offline

In my opinion living arrangements do not determine weather someone is submissive, slave, dominate, Master, switch, or terrier. I know that for us we would not allow another to move into our home at this point. However, I don't beleive that would take away from their ability to submit to use. I think that personal preference and circumstance often dictate living situations more than devotion or personal labels.

Nika{Phoenix}

_____________________________

"Life is neither a bed of roses nor a carpet of thorns, it's just what you make of it."

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 9

RE: Submissive or Slave - 4/30/2006 4:08:28 PM

spankmepink11

Posts: 1310
Joined: 9/28/2005
Status: offline

"I mean think about it. How many times have you talked to someone and they tell you " I am a slave" or " I am a dominate" then the more you get to know them you relize. Oh my there is NOT a submissive or dominate bone in their body! "

Nika{Phoenix}

I think Nika makes a great point. Not to stray from the subject....but just as you can apply the " all slaves are submissive...but not all submissives are slaves.....i think people confuse BDSM with M/s & D/s by assuming because they are sadistic...they are by default Dominants...or if masochistic...they are submissives....

As in most things it comes down to personal perception, someone will always try to impose their own labels upon you anyway.

So...i guess i'd say yes...in the getting to know one another process it would be wise for the individuals involved to discuss these terms and be sure both parties views compliment one anothers enough to proceed.
The line...in my opinion is drawn at the point where the views differ to an untolerable level for either party.

(in reply to Phoenixandnika)

Post #: 10

RE: Submissive or Slave - 4/30/2006 4:12:09 PM

Leader100

Posts: 2
Joined: 4/30/2006
Status: offline

Hi
You said it all in your profile. Less is more. The only diffrence D/s brings to the plate is the base of which the partners establish the way they compliment each other.

I am sure you understand. You sound like a bright woman.

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 11

RE: Submissive or Slave - 4/30/2006 4:21:00 PM

YoungSub22

Posts: 32
Joined: 4/22/2006
Status: offline

I agree wih you totally truesub. I am a submissive and I have a dominant partner. We both have the understanding though that I will not call him Master until I feel he is truly mine and I am his. Until I submit myself to him fully. This was my choice and my preference. I am the one that brought it up to him. But being the good Dom that he is and understanding the difference between Submissive and Slave, he respected my wishes and is waiting patiently for the time I call him Master.

_____________________________

~Sassy~

(in reply to truesub4u)

Post #: 12

RE: Submissive or Slave - 4/30/2006 4:24:27 PM

YoungSub22

Posts: 32
Joined: 4/22/2006
Status: offline

I agree with you as weel PheonixandNika. Me and my Dom currently live seperately but spend much time together. We will soon live togther. We have discussed bringing in another sub for me to Dom over but we would never have that person move in with us. The relationship between my Dom and me is our own. But if we choose to bring in a second sub for me to Dom over, that is for play, not to establish a polyamorous relationship live-in or not. Living situations have nothing to do with your situation/relationship/arrangement.

_____________________________

~Sassy~

(in reply to Phoenixandnika)

Post #: 13

RE: Submissive or Slave - 4/30/2006 4:27:41 PM

Submotive

Posts: 440
Joined: 9/9/2005
Status: offline

quote:

The question I have is whether participants typically begin communications with a clear goal in mind, or whether the point at which that line is clearly drawn is allowed to organically grow out of the interaction?

One of the greatest mistakes anyone can make, i believe, is to generalize anything. Everyone has different concepts about D/s and M/s and so one on one communication about what Y/you are each desiring is what will be the most beneficial.

For Master and i it is actually a combination of D/s and M/s that make O/our relationship purr. It all depends, imho, on what the people involved perceive as D/s and M/s. It's a very creative process for Master and me with times where my input and negotiations are welcome and considered and other times when all He wants is my complete and prompt obedience, regardless of my desires and opinions.

Do W/we have a D/s relationship OR a M/s relationship - no - W/we have both because that's what works for U/us. Perhaps that's why it's difficult for some people to clearly define. My recommendation to You is to address each contact individually and discuss what you're each seeking and see if you blend.

_____________________________

Owned by Scotch Master

i would rather continue alone than be permitted to show only parts of myself to my Beloved.

If you're not living as you would like to today, when are you going to start?

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 14

RE: Submissive or Slave - 4/30/2006 4:27:56 PM

losttreasure

Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leader100

Hi
You said it all in your profile. Less is more. The only diffrence D/s brings to the plate is the base of which the partners establish the way they compliment each other.

I am sure you understand. You sound like a bright woman.

Ahh, but see... there's the rub. I "do" understand. But the key is whether what I understand matches "his" understanding. ;)

(in reply to Leader100)

Post #: 15

RE: Submissive or Slave - 4/30/2006 4:36:32 PM

losttreasure

Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: YoungSub22

I agree wih you totally truesub. I am a submissive and I have a dominant partner. We both have the understanding though that I will not call him Master until I feel he is truly mine and I am his. Until I submit myself to him fully. This was my choice and my preference. I am the one that brought it up to him. But being the good Dom that he is and understanding the difference between Submissive and Slave, he respected my wishes and is waiting patiently for the time I call him Master.

Your situation keys in on an aspect of this issue that perhaps deserves a thread of its own... that being whether there is any feelings of disappointment on your Dom's side because you do not yet feel ready to call him Master, or on your side for not being ready. I assume that your enslavement is his ultimate desire since you say he waits patiently for that time to come, and your ultimate desire because you brought it up.

Where this fits the current thread is in the question of whether he initially identified himself to you as being one who desired that you eventually call him Master, and were you given the clear opportunity to state whether that was something that you desired as well?

(in reply to YoungSub22)

Post #: 16

RE: Submissive or Slave - 4/30/2006 4:48:48 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I had heard the definition of M/s as a relationship in which the level of power exchange rises to be that of TPE. That the slave has the psychological need to surrender complete control over everything in her life to her master. He can and will decide what she eats, where she sleeps, what she reads, where she goes, how she speaks. I was told that this was 24-7 in the way that it also impacts their whole relationship, and is often practiced even in front of their kids,... the level of control that is. I have great respect for those who seek that level of submission and those who practice that form of mastery over another. It is also NOT for me. I state in my profile I am a submissive because I am a submissive... Not a slave as I understand a slave to be. I could not practice D/s in front of my child in an open way, or my other family members. I may have misunderstood how it is practiced, but that is the only understanding that I have of what it means to be a slave, such as one cannot have their own money and so forth.

It is a wonderful question you are asking because I think sometimes the terms sub/slave is seen as interchangeable. I always tell any dom that is interested in me, I can play a slave girl on the weekends, but I am a submissive all the time. I think it is possible to have slavegirl fantasies and not want to be a slave, they call it roleplaying ... and there is nothing wrong with that!

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 17

RE: Submissive or Slave - 4/30/2006 4:51:42 PM

losttreasure

Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reasonable

My house is not in order for a slave at this time-work takes priority. I give and expect full disclosure.

Submissives with caveats are not on my interest list-nor will they be.

*grins* I feel like my question was side-stepped.

Yes, full disclosure would be both reasonable and expected between any prospective partners. But the question remains... when would you disclose to that prospective partner (assuming a submissive without caveats) that what you ultimately seek is enslavement?

(in reply to Reasonable)

Post #: 18

RE: Submissive or Slave - 4/30/2006 5:54:35 PM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

Perhaps the majority of those who have contact me are simply showing bad form by not soliciting from me whether I have the desire to exceed submission and enter into slavery... but rather than assume it's just poor manners, I thought I'd gather some experienced opinions.

Do you typically ask or are you asked whether you desire a D/s relationship or M/s?

I think it may be a number of cases of bad manners. But to answer your question, this is my practice regarding the question.

I currently have my search settings to include both submissives and slaves, this despite the fact I seek a slave. I realize that since there is so much confusion about the difference between a submissive and slave there are many who may not be certain how to label themselves. Also, there are those who feel if they are not actually owned then they should refer to themselves as submissives rather than slaves (their feeling is you must be owned to be a slave). Given all this I look at the search results, read the individual profiles for their content and based on what I see there I make an initial decision about whether I would contact that individual or not. I look for individuals who indicate they would like a relationship that matches what I desire, whether they label it M/s or not. If I don't see that potential, I pass it by.

I have also learned to keep an open mind, sometimes people will surprise you. Not long ago I was contacted by a young woman who seemed very interested in me, did not live too far away and very quickly gave me her phone number. As I said, I seek a slave, and two of my favorite interests are puppygirl play and leashes. The surprising part, according to her profile she identifies as a switch, doesn't like leashes and hates puppyplay... so she contacts me, go figure. I think sometimes people don't know themselves well enough to really know what they want, and sometimes they come across something or someone that causes them to reconsider what it is they want. I just keep an open mind and see if they turn out to be serious, regardless I remain who I am.

I will share with you a bit of advice I recently gave another young lady regarding the emails. You'll often find that people who contact you project onto you what they want you to be rather than seeing you for who you are. They don't ask if you want what they are describing because they are fervently hoping you will turn out to be what they want and don't want reality to dash their hopes. When reading emails, do this. Look at them and ask, is this person interested in you, or interested in who they want you to be? Respond to the ones interested in you.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 19

RE: Submissive or Slave - 4/30/2006 6:00:46 PM

Reasonable

Posts: 459
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline

Read my profile update.

It will stay so. any further questions? (sighs,at least when they finally approve it,drop me a line and I'll send a copy..)

I'll just say one final thing. If you dance around on what you want-you get things you don't want. today I was vague,and I got something in my mailbox,I did not want.

And that was on me,not the sender. I seldom repeat a mistake twice.

< Message edited by Reasonable -- 4/30/2006 6:25:28 PM >

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 20

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