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What did Santa sneak in? Death Panels are back - 12/27/2010 1:38:09 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		What they couldn't pass in a law they sneak in as a regulation during the quietest weak of the year....complete with emails to Democrap congressmen to not publicize it, even to their supporters.

What could be the harm of paying for end of life counseling? Nothing...if its a neutral party paying for it. But when its the government, desperate to maintain costs so their folly of "health care reform" doesnt bankrupt the country, plenty.

That bastion of conservative economists, Paul Krugman:

During the heated healthcare debate, supporters of the Obama plan vigorously denied that rationing for seniors would take place and scoffed at "death panel" critics such as Palin.

Last month, however, economist and New York Times columnist Paul Krugman told ABC News that rising Medicare costs could be dealt with only by "death panels and sales taxes."

He added: "Medicare is going to have to decide what it's going to pay for. And at least for starters, it's going to have to decide which medical procedures are not effective at all and should not be paid for at all. In other words, it should have endorsed the [death] panel that was part of the healthcare reform.’"

Welcome to transparency in government.

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RE: What did Santa sneak in? Death Panels are back - 12/27/2010 1:49:46 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		KRUGMAN: Can I just get into magnitudes here, though? The cost of permanently extending just the upper-end Bush tax cuts, as opposed to only extending the middle-class tax cuts, the 75-year cost of that is just about identical to the 75-year accounting shortfall in Social Security. So we've got people who are saying, oh, Social Security, got to do something about it, but let's extend those tax cuts for rich people. This is showing how the priorities are all skewed (ph).

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: What did Santa sneak in? Death Panels are back - 12/27/2010 3:25:24 PM   
flcouple2009


Posts: 2784
Joined: 1/8/2009
Status: offline 		How is something that was never there back?

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RE: What did Santa sneak in? Death Panels are back - 12/27/2010 3:29:00 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Was that to willbe?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to flcouple2009)
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RE: What did Santa sneak in? Death Panels are back - 12/27/2010 3:52:09 PM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

How is something that was never there back?

Don't trouble him with facts, they'll hurt what passes for his brain.

~stef


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Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

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RE: What did Santa sneak in? Death Panels are back - 12/27/2010 3:59:05 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		FR

This is.

That's one of the reasons I was against it from the gitgo. The government does not owe anyone health care. The whole issue came up because the insurance industry is not properly regulated. The hell you say - this coming from me ? Practically an anachist ?

While I am for the absolute minimum of regulations on People, big business is a different story. Companies serving or employing a signifcant number of people are in a position to abuse. In the quest for ever increasing profits, they will do anything they can. Anything legal as well as undetectable. Certain industries like insurance and public utilities must be regulated or the electric company could eventually own the world given enough time to operate unfettered.

Really what this is, is just transferring the death panel from the backrooms of insurance companies to the backrooms of government offices. You think a hundred buck a month health insurance policy is going to pay for a hip replacement for a 94 year old Man with cancer ? Some will, but it costs.

What's more in the new backrooms, I bet many of the people will come from the old backrooms anyway.

The fact is the sysyem is a mess, and this healthcare debacle will not fix it. How it got to be such a mess is another subject. If you want to open that can of worms just say so.

T

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: What did Santa sneak in? Death Panels are back - 12/27/2010 4:01:20 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Want to know about insurance company backrooms? Ask willbe.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: What did Santa sneak in? Death Panels are back - 12/27/2010 4:56:02 PM   
CruelNUnsual


Posts: 624
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Status: offline 		xx

(in reply to flcouple2009)
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RE: What did Santa sneak in? Death Panels are back - 12/27/2010 7:21:59 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		I have a close relative that works in nursing homes. A LOT of the people there have 'living wills'. Guess what? Close relatives can override them. I'm not just in the bible Belt but on the buckle of the damn thing. If all these people are convinced that meemaw is 'going to a better place' let her fucking GO. If someone has made it CLEAR that they dont want to be tube fed, etc, dont force ME to fucking pay for it via medicare.
We wouldn't need 'death panels' if people were allowed to chose for themselves what they want.

Personally, if someone violates My living will and puts me on a tube and machines, I'm gonna haunt their ass to the point that Amityville Horror looks like childs play.

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RE: What did Santa sneak in? Death Panels are back - 12/27/2010 7:55:46 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		What state is that?
I'm pretty sure it isn't WV....

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1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

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RE: What did Santa sneak in? Death Panels are back - 12/27/2010 8:39:30 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		A close relative who has power of attorney, or health care power of attorney, can override a living will.... actually, anyone holding either of those can override.

A physician doesnt have to abide by a living will.

Not all living wills come into effect immediately. If you need a tube to feed you while you are recovering from a bee sting, for example, then its not covered by the living will and a feeding tube will be inserted. If the chances of you recovering from the injury/disease are good, then the living will doesnt come into effect.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: What did Santa sneak in? Death Panels are back - 12/27/2010 9:47:54 PM   
housesub4you


Posts: 1879
Joined: 4/2/2008
Status: offline 		If you go to a hospital own by a church, they feel GOD has more power then the person who actually wrote out their plans.  There are way to many loopholes, the right wing church supporters bought with their support.



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RE: What did Santa sneak in? Death Panels are back - 12/27/2010 10:00:57 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		The purpose of the counsiling session is to help the elderly decide what to do when the time comes and to empower them to speak to their families, get all the paperwork into order, and to have a clear cut conversation with their PCP so there are no misunderstandings.

How that equates to a death panel, i have no fucking clue.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to housesub4you)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: What did Santa sneak in? Death Panels are back - 12/27/2010 10:46:50 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Death panels, end of life cousellors - all the same thing, or they're not. Oppressors or heroes ? It all in the words.

If it's still so, if you can get Super Blue in Ohio, you can get a hip replacement covered at age 90, even with cancer. Super Blue was hard to get and expensive, but the reason it was expensive is because it had practically no limits. That's fine for those who can afff.......

See where that just went ? Those who can afford it. Those who can get it. What do you think happens if the same person is on the "economy plan" ? Super Blue paid over $300,000 for my buddy who had only been on it a few years. If you were a peer policyholder who is and always was in good health, why should you pay for him ? You do. Where else does the money come from ?

We don't need the government for this except as in the capacity of say - the Nevada gaming commision. Regulate it. Don't let them drop people at the first sign of trouble. Limits, sensible ones on rate hikes for those with pre-existing conditions. Things like that.

It would amount to about the same thing as this proposed government takeover. What's more I don't see how it should cost any tax money, they intend to force you to BUY. You think that every check to a hospital will come from Uncle Sam ? Of course you don't. No matter how they posture, it seems the idea is to get everyone in on it, so the healthy pay as well. I've known people who had been to a doctor maybe five times in their life. If that's their choice not to insure, then it is their gamble.

The trick to makiing big money in essence is to privatize gain and socialize loss. I see where this plan socializes loss, and now I wonder where the gain is. If you want me to believe that a second term President and his cronies pushed this thing for the good of the people, you have a long way to go. Need some oceanfront property while you're at it ? Nice and cheap, right on the Gulf.

The fact is, and of this I have no doubt, someone is going to make money. Does it really matter who ?

T

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: What did Santa sneak in? Death Panels are back - 12/27/2010 11:02:11 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Ever looked to see what it costs to insure yourself? I did, and i cant afford it. Out of this Law came the inability for insurers to drop you because of pre-existing conditions... like the infant who was excluded because it was too "fat"... like those who didnt report a sinus infection.

The solution should have been simpler. Public option? Nope. National health care is the way to go.

Problem is many see this as the final step. I see it as a stepping stone. Watch. There hasnt been a single social case taken on at the national level that has not required baby steps. Womens Rights required the NOW movement to get what we have gained. Look at how long Civil Rights took to finally make it to the national level.

The "good ole boy" network is alive and thriving at the state levels. Which is why this muct become a national issue. Much like equal rights, gay rights, women rights... hell any rights.

Health is not a commodity to be bought and sold.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: What did Santa sneak in? Death Panels are back - 12/27/2010 11:56:20 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Hold on. Health is not a commodity ? Hellooooo.

At one time people had to pay for themselves and that was it. No money, no fix you. The market would not bear these exhorbitant prices. The non-market would've responded by not paying it. Along came insurance and the glory days were here. While this fueled much in the way of medical advances, it also bloated payrolls all over the place.

If healthcare should not be a commodity, talk to the people who sell it. The ones who charge a person 10,000 times for an operation than if it were performed on an animal. Talk to them about it.

The bumper on your car is a commodity, and I bet you never paid for one, the insurance company might. When bumpers cost fifty bucks people bought their own if they got in a fender bend...., well a bumper bender. Now a taillight is $400. Nobody would buy those kind of cars if they knew that and had to pay it themselves. The automakers would've responded by making the parts affordable. But there is this BIG pile of money. Well they want some.

If I owned a machine shop and bought a 20' boring mill, I would want that thing running 24/7. They cost as much as a CAT scanner. Walk in a hospital and look at their CAT scanner. Sit there for some time. How much was it used that shift ? The cost is amortized, and the more people who use it, the quicker that happens. Then the profit begins. Then the profit ends as it is scrapped and replaced with the new model. Only cost $3 million, get two !

In business I asked someone how much they charge. The answer was "whatever the traffic will bear".

T

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RE: What did Santa sneak in? Death Panels are back - 12/28/2010 12:01:55 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Health care is NOT a commodity... like people are not a commodity. Just because its treated like one doesnt make it so.

You dont need a car to survive.

quote:

If healthcare should not be a commodity, talk to the people who sell it. The ones who charge a person 10,000 times for an operation than if it were performed on an animal. Talk to them about it.


Think i dont? HCA and groups like it have created many of the problems we have today. Deregulation of the health care industry as a whole has added to the unnecessary death toll in this country. Think people dont talk about it?

It has to start somewhere.

There are many solutions to these problems. Some i have introduced on these boards. Many fo which the AMA and our politicians would never endorse.

Does that mean we dont talk about them?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: What did Santa sneak in? Death Panels are back - 12/28/2010 12:43:13 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

How is something that was never there back?


Section 1233 there, gone, and snuck in the back door. And in case you dont think that "end of life counseling" is a pre-cursor to rationing heroic efforts to prolong life, youre living in fantasy land.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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RE: What did Santa sneak in? Death Panels are back - 12/28/2010 12:45:09 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

i have no fucking clue.


And its about time you realized it.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: What did Santa sneak in? Death Panels are back - 12/28/2010 12:46:21 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		Everything that can be bought or sold is a commodity.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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