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RE: Contraband - 12/27/2010 10:51:00 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Hey ! How many lumens and how much ?

T

(in reply to Jeffff)
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RE: Contraband - 12/27/2010 11:01:25 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		No, Jeff, I overtly approve of torture in those rare instances where it is appropriate. Wall Street seems to have a pretty good lock on both sides, and we could argue forever about what constitutes a "regular guy." Don't some of those like a 100 watt bulb over the workbench?

Actually, I've been looking at the LED fixtures people will be forced to start buying. I think that might be where the money is. Or at least the better retirement plan.

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Contraband - 12/28/2010 6:17:44 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Medic

I found this a bit funny
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/12/bootleg_lightbulbs_coming_to_c.html

What a load of crap.

The fact is that switching from incandescant to CFL will reduce power usage significantly. I switched to CFL several years ago and my electric bill went down significantly and the only real difference I noted was it was a lot cooler on summer evenings. The mercury scare mongering is more of the usual lies you expect from right wingers. CFL bulbs contain a lot less mercury than standard tube flourescent bulbs but we don't seem to be having to declare commercial buildings (which in general use hundereds of such tubes) superfund sites.

As to cost when the lifespan of the CFL is compared to the incandescant it is the incandescant that costs more. And CFL prices should go down even more as production increases.

(in reply to Medic)
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RE: Contraband - 12/28/2010 6:44:51 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Medic

I found this a bit funny
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/12/bootleg_lightbulbs_coming_to_c.html

What a load of crap.

The fact is that switching from incandescant to CFL will reduce power usage significantly. I switched to CFL several years ago and my electric bill went down significantly and the only real difference I noted was it was a lot cooler on summer evenings. The mercury scare mongering is more of the usual lies you expect from right wingers. CFL bulbs contain a lot less mercury than standard tube flourescent bulbs but we don't seem to be having to declare commercial buildings (which in general use hundereds of such tubes) superfund sites.

As to cost when the lifespan of the CFL is compared to the incandescant it is the incandescant that costs more. And CFL prices should go down even more as production increases.


That is odd.  I switched and then my electric bill went up significantly. 

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RE: Contraband - 12/28/2010 8:20:11 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Not from the CFL's. Note the wattage on the bulb. That's how much power the bulb consumes. The CFL bulb equivalent in light production to a 100 watt incandescant is only around 25 watts. Therefore it uses around 1/4 the power of the incandescant.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 12/28/2010 8:21:23 AM >

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: Contraband - 12/28/2010 8:49:02 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Except for PPL filed for and got a 42% rate increase. 

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Contraband - 12/28/2010 9:32:11 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		So? That still not the fault of the bulbs. As a matter of fact if you hadn't switched you would be paying even more.

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RE: Contraband - 12/28/2010 9:42:40 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
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From: Central Pennsylvania
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So? That still not the fault of the bulbs. As a matter of fact if you hadn't switched you would be paying even more.


Now we are getting somewhere. See how the racket works?

Convince people to use less- then the utility has a shortfall and needs more money.

We go thru this with every utility.

At least the town water company- admits that it might come down to this. 

I don't know how familiar you are with Con Edison.  They did this in the 80s. The same scams are recycled again- and again- and again.. and again.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Contraband - 12/28/2010 9:45:15 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Why the hell should the CEO get 6 million $ and PPL and pay 1 million $ to lobby.  WHy?  Why oh lordy- WHY.

Dig on the names- the same names are on the competitors board of directors.  Do some digging you will see.

Oh my head hurts from this post- lordy my oh my.

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Contraband - 12/28/2010 10:42:39 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So? That still not the fault of the bulbs. As a matter of fact if you hadn't switched you would be paying even more.


Now we are getting somewhere. See how the racket works?

Convince people to use less- then the utility has a shortfall and needs more money.

We go thru this with every utility.

At least the town water company- admits that it might come down to this. 

I don't know how familiar you are with Con Edison.  They did this in the 80s. The same scams are recycled again- and again- and again.. and again.


You just committed a basic logical fallacy (post hoc ergo propter hoc). Simply put you are claiming that people switching to CFL bulbs was related to a massive rate hike. The fact is people are switching to CFL bulbs all over the country but rates are not going up dramatically all over.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: Contraband - 12/28/2010 10:55:39 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So? That still not the fault of the bulbs. As a matter of fact if you hadn't switched you would be paying even more.


Now we are getting somewhere. See how the racket works?

Convince people to use less- then the utility has a shortfall and needs more money.

We go thru this with every utility.

At least the town water company- admits that it might come down to this. 

I don't know how familiar you are with Con Edison.  They did this in the 80s. The same scams are recycled again- and again- and again.. and again.


You just committed a basic logical fallacy (post hoc ergo propter hoc). Simply put you are claiming that people switching to CFL bulbs was related to a massive rate hike. The fact is people are switching to CFL bulbs all over the country but rates are not going up dramatically all over.


Bull shit.

Enjoy your cheap electricity... because the global warming witch drs have plans for YOUR money.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Contraband - 12/28/2010 11:18:54 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Just like they had plans for your brains.

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RE: Contraband - 12/28/2010 12:13:04 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So? That still not the fault of the bulbs. As a matter of fact if you hadn't switched you would be paying even more.


Now we are getting somewhere. See how the racket works?

Convince people to use less- then the utility has a shortfall and needs more money.

We go thru this with every utility.

At least the town water company- admits that it might come down to this. 

I don't know how familiar you are with Con Edison.  They did this in the 80s. The same scams are recycled again- and again- and again.. and again.


You just committed a basic logical fallacy (post hoc ergo propter hoc). Simply put you are claiming that people switching to CFL bulbs was related to a massive rate hike. The fact is people are switching to CFL bulbs all over the country but rates are not going up dramatically all over.


Bull shit.

Enjoy your cheap electricity... because the global warming witch drs have plans for YOUR money.


You still need some sort of evidence for your claim.

This is specially true since global warming activists have little to do with utility companies.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: Contraband - 12/28/2010 3:13:24 PM   
pogo4pres


Posts: 593
Joined: 1/14/2007
Status: offline 		FR

I worked in a retail/wholesale regional electrical suppy house for 10 years, trust me on this, if you need a 100 watt lamp (bulbs are what you plant in the ground each spring) you need yer fucking eyes checked.  Two table fixtures with 60 watt lamps are more than enough light to see by.  Now do the math for say 10 fixtures, if you have 100 watt lamps in all of them you're using 1kilowatt per hour (this being the basic unit of electrical utility measurement) versus say 10 x 60 watt lamps, which will provide almost as much light for 2 hours.  (60 watts times 10 = 600 watts or 1.2 kilowatts for two hours).  Anytime electric creates heat it is wasted energy.

Electrically,
Some Knucklehead in NJ


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RE: Contraband - 12/28/2010 7:26:26 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Medic

Since I read this, I've been looking for a paper I read about a year ago about the costs in "carbon footprint" that results in the recycling of the eco friendly lightbulbs. The paper totalled the increased energy use in the production of these bulbs, the recycling costs, damage to the environment when the bulbs are not recycled, transportation costs(made in China), and actual energy use. Any guesses on what the result was?

If I find that paper, I will post the link here.

I just can't see being mandated to use something that contains more toxic materials than I would like in my home. It is recommended that if you break one of those bulbs you evacuate the room for 15 minutes.


This is the story of the entire green movement, from recycling to carbon credits. Why should light bulbs be any different.

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RE: Contraband - 12/28/2010 7:40:52 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Ken-  power companies must pay for their emissions-- this cost is passed on to the customers.  It has everything to do with global warming pick pocketers.

You are paying for emissions and you will pay ALOT more-  about $6000 more a year for the average household by 2020.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Contraband - 12/29/2010 2:24:20 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Medic

Since I read this, I've been looking for a paper I read about a year ago about the costs in "carbon footprint" that results in the recycling of the eco friendly lightbulbs. The paper totalled the increased energy use in the production of these bulbs, the recycling costs, damage to the environment when the bulbs are not recycled, transportation costs(made in China), and actual energy use. Any guesses on what the result was?

If I find that paper, I will post the link here.

I just can't see being mandated to use something that contains more toxic materials than I would like in my home. It is recommended that if you break one of those bulbs you evacuate the room for 15 minutes.


This is the story of the entire green movement, from recycling to carbon credits. Why should light bulbs be any different.

Except of course it is made up bullshit. The right wingers tried to attack the Prius that way and of course, since it was right wingers, they lied to do it.
http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity_of_science/case_studies/hummer_vs_prius.pdf

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Contraband - 12/29/2010 3:43:40 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		The problem with all this is the age of specialization. I will assert that it is worse for the environment to manufacture the new lamps, as well as the trusty old flourescent lamps than to manufacture incandescent lamps. However, incandescents have a terrible short lived existence, which offsets that to some extent. Whether it is one way or another, I don't know. You know whay I don't know ? Because I am not familiar with the process of manufacturing lamps of any lind, it's not my field.

I can go by personal experience though. When the newer high efficiency flourescents came out we wound up with a bunch of those in the basement. Well I remember the day when flourescents were used not only for the energy savings, but for their longevity. I can tell you - those days are over. We had to buy new tubes by the case. It was ridiculous and we changed to incandescent. Now it seems even incendescents have lost their longevity, again by personal observation. In this case, CFLs are the way to go. The only exception really is if you want to use light dimmers.

Nobody can think of everything though. What about the impact to the healthcare system because of workers exposed to mercury where these lamps are produced ? More sick people means more medical waste. Does an electrical engineer take that into consideration ? Doubtful. Even the designers of the CFL probably didn't think of the cost of the mercury in the environment as these spent units are discarded. Sure they say that people should take them to be recycled, but how many people are actually going to do that. The broken ones can't be dealt with effectively, and I doubt people will collect them like aluminum cans. For one they are fragile, you think guys riding around in junk trucks scapping are going to have padded containers in which to carry them ? A bit doubtful to say the least.

And what of the people who can't stand flourescent lights ? Is it because of the 60 Hz flicker which most of us can't detect, or is it because of the spectral output ? I guess we'll find out sooner or later. Nobody can find all the variables and properly apply them. It is simply impossible.

So they all lie. Some want to sell the Prius, others want to sell the Humvee. Noone is without bias when it comes to money.

Another example is all the heat pumps they sold in this area. Wondeful machine, when in heating mode it acts as a reverse air conditioner. Good right ? Well air conditioners do not remove heat they only move heat. It's below 20 F right now. So these reverse air conditioners have to work so long to get the job done any savings evaporate. It took prctical experience to figure that out, but anyone could've told them that heating a house by turning window AC units inside out is effecient would be laughed out of the room by anyone with a triple digit IQ. But doctors, lawyers and engineers bought heat pumps, which is essentially the same thing. Thay have mostly been scrapped, although some enterprising folk have picked them up and used them as quite dandy central AC units in split systems.

There are two major factors afoot when it comes to rcycling. One positive is to produce less overall scrap. This comes chiefly from longer product life cycles and economy of design. The other major factor is producing scrap that is reusable. That is one of the major factors inhibiting electric cars, at least in one sense. With a regular car you can melt down almost the entire drive train, but even the lead acid battery is a problem. Newer battery technology introduces a host of new problems, some forseen, others not as of yet.

Oppenheimer, Fermi and that group probably gave little or no thought to nuclear waste, how could they ? They were interested in fast fission, not slow fission. Henry Ford gave no thought to carbon monoxide. The list can go on.

T

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 38
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