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But..but...they have high taxes!! - 12/30/2010 10:11:52 AM   
AnimusRex


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There has been a lot of noise made recently about how cities and states absolutely must cut taxes and regulation and become more business friendly so as to attract industry. The theory goes that wealthy people and businesses will flee high tax areas for low tax areas.

Now for some real world data:
New York City is the hot new place to be for Internet startups.
From the article:
Gary Chou, who moved from San Francisco to Brooklyn this summer and now works for Union Square Ventures, said some tech endeavors grew out of a New York state of mind.

"You had these start-ups emerging from New York — start-ups that wouldn't have come from anywhere else," he said, pointing to companies such as Foursquare and Tumblr Inc., a popular blogging platform.

Chou said that Tumblr reflects the city's artistic and design sensibilities, which contrast with Silicon Valley's more utilitarian aesthetics. FourSquare, with its geographic location updates, is particularly useful in a dense city like New York, where friends are often just a few blocks away.


For some reason, they prefer New York with its high taxes, public unions, and librul atmosphere to such white-hot low-tax business-friendly havens like Mississippi, or Idaho.

Funny that.
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RE: But..but...they have high taxes!! - 12/30/2010 10:20:44 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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Funny this:

Little wonder then that while Texas gained over 848,000 net new residents in the last 10 years, according to the Census Bureau, California lost 1.5 million. New York State’s net loss exceeded 1.6 million - the highest of any state. High-tax, big- government New Jersey ranked fourth, with a net loss of almost 460,000, enough to drop it from 10th to 11th place in population.

“The New York state legislature is the most dysfunctional in the land and one of the reasons why New York is the worst,” one exasperated New York City business leader volunteered. The political elites in the states that dismiss out-migration trends overlook the radical demographic adjustment underway. As higher-income earners leave, they are more often replaced by those with lower incomes and lower skills, many needing public assistance. Gone too are the entrepreneurs and risk-takers, off seeking regions where their job creating abilities are rewarded.



Hint: Internet startups wont pay taxes for years, and being close to venture capitalists is a competitive advantage.

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RE: But..but...they have high taxes!! - 12/30/2010 11:03:48 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Funny this:

Little wonder then that while Texas gained over 848,000 net new residents in the last 10 years, according to the Census Bureau, California lost 1.5 million. New York State’s net loss exceeded 1.6 million - the highest of any state. High-tax, big- government New Jersey ranked fourth, with a net loss of almost 460,000, enough to drop it from 10th to 11th place in population.

“The New York state legislature is the most dysfunctional in the land and one of the reasons why New York is the worst,” one exasperated New York City business leader volunteered. The political elites in the states that dismiss out-migration trends overlook the radical demographic adjustment underway. As higher-income earners leave, they are more often replaced by those with lower incomes and lower skills, many needing public assistance. Gone too are the entrepreneurs and risk-takers, off seeking regions where their job creating abilities are rewarded.



Hint: Internet startups wont pay taxes for years, and being close to venture capitalists is a competitive advantage.


Weren't you an insurance peddler in New York that moved to California?  Doesn't that sort of put the fucking lie to your whole asswipe?

You may have been at a higher wage than a welfare patient, but certainly a bigger drag on productive society, figuring out your death panels.

So this anecdotal exasperated business leader, what does he do? 

I could see where people want to get out of NYC simply cuz they don't feel safe there.   And fuck taxes, who can afford a run down slum in NYC at a couple three grand a month without a job when they can get a shack in dweebleville TX at 250 a month with no job?  

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 12/30/2010 11:05:25 AM >


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RE: But..but...they have high taxes!! - 12/30/2010 11:14:32 AM   
EternalHoH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

There has been a lot of noise made recently about how cities and states absolutely must cut taxes and regulation and become more business friendly so as to attract industry. The theory goes that wealthy people and businesses will flee high tax areas for low tax areas.




Wealthy people are indeed fleeing, but not from one state to another to run a business more profitably.  They are fleeing business ownership altogether, because shortcuts to wealth have been recently created. Who in their right mind would ever want to own a factory and hire people and deal with unions and inventory taxes and depreciation costs just to build personal wealth?  Easier ways to build wealth have been invented in the past 20 years.


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RE: But..but...they have high taxes!! - 12/30/2010 11:28:58 AM   
GotSteel


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Please cite your source.

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RE: But..but...they have high taxes!! - 12/30/2010 12:02:02 PM   
Charles6682


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New York state does have some very high taxes.However,New York State also provides very good incentives for world class companies to start their business in New York as well.The Empire Zone was suppose to provide tax credits to companies that started jobs there and hired local citizens.The probelm with the Empire Zone was that too many companies were abusing that program.David Patterson was right to start with a new program.

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RE: But..but...they have high taxes!! - 12/30/2010 1:06:52 PM   
AnimusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EternalHoH
Wealthy people are indeed fleeing, but not from one state to another to run a business more profitably.  They are fleeing business ownership altogether, because shortcuts to wealth have been recently created.


I haven't seen any data on this; can you cite a source that shows that wealthy people are fleeing business ownership?

quote:


Easier ways to build wealth have been invented in the past 20 years.


OK, I'll bite- what are these easier ways to build wealth?

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RE: But..but...they have high taxes!! - 12/30/2010 1:33:50 PM   
AnimusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Funny this:

Little wonder then that while Texas gained over 848,000 net new residents in the last 10 years, according to the Census Bureau, California lost 1.5 million. New York State’s net loss exceeded 1.6 million - the highest of any state. High-tax, big- government New Jersey ranked fourth, with a net loss of almost 460,000, enough to drop it from 10th to 11th place in population.




Indeed- the southern and western states have seen a very large increase in population; many expeerts expect that much of these population gains are due to increases in Hispanics.

From the article:

Nevada, where Latinos were a significant factor in the re-election of Sen. Harry Reid, a Democrat, saw a 35 percent population increase, the highest of any state. Nevada gained one congressional seat.
Texas saw a 21 percent growth, and gained four seats – coming out the top winner in gains in congressional representation. The gain in Texas, particularly, has been attributed by demographic experts in large measure to its growing Hispanic population and an economy that weathered the recession.
Florida, with an 18 percent growth, was the second winner in apportionments with two more seats.
Arizona, which in the last year became an immigration policy battleground with its controversial measure empowering police to check for immigration status, had a population growth of 9.1 percent, and will gain one seat.


I'm sure that all the Hispanic immigrants to these states will enjoy and promote the anti-immigrant, non-union, limited government views of the political establishments there.

But in any case, you reference population shifts away from New York; the article I read spoke about how entreprenuers are moving to NYC.

Point being, that despite high taxes, high rents and congestion, NYC has attributes that make doing business very lucrative; that taxes are simply one of many factors that businesses consider when they are deciding where to locate.

Good schools that create a large pool of skilled workers, good utility infrastructure, transportation connectivity- these are things businesses need to operate and grow profitably.

These are also things that government does well, and need to be paid for with taxes.


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RE: But..but...they have high taxes!! - 12/30/2010 1:45:43 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

If economic productivity – created by low regulations or anything else – was causing the growth of Texas, Arizona and Georgia, then these places should have high per capita productivity and wages. Yet per capita state product in Arizona in 2009 was $35,300, 16 percent less than the national average. Per capita state products was $36,700 in Georgia and $42,500 in Texas.

These figures are far below per capita state products in slow-growing places like Connecticut ($58,500), Massachusetts ($50,600) and New York ($50,200). According to the Census Bureau’s 2009 American Community Survey, median family incomes were $56,200, $60,800 and $56,600 in Georgia, Nevada and Texas, but $83,000, $81,000 and $66,900 in Connecticut, Massachusetts and New York.

Low incomes and productivity in the growing states of the Sun Belt strongly suggest that their expansion is not driven by outsize economic success.


So if it's not economic success, what is it? Apparently cheap housing:



quote:

Housing prices in Texas and Georgia are neither high nor rising. The median sales price for a home in greater Houston is $159,000 and in Atlanta $113,000. The comparable figures for New York and Boston are $470,000 and $367,000, respectively.

Housing in the growth regions is inexpensive, both in absolute terms and relative to those areas’ incomes...

But those low housing prices actually provide a vital clue about why Arizona, Georgia and Texas are growing. These states have built hundreds of thousands of homes despite having low housing prices. Connecticut, Massachusetts and New York have high prices but far less new construction.

The Sun Belt pattern of low prices and abundant construction can mean only one thing: an abundant and elastic supply of housing. Demand for new housing, due to either sunshine or economic success, isn’t driving Sun Belt growth – low prices belie that explanation.

Rather, in the growing regions, even modest demand creates far more new construction, and population growth, because supply responds so enthusiastically.


quote:

A rich body of research shows that regulation, which is intense in the Northeast and California but lax in the Sun Belt, explains why housing is supplied so readily down South. The future shape of America is being driven not by quality of life or economic success but by the obscure rules regulating local land use.

In a sense, the anti-regulation crowd is right that the laissez-faire attitude of the South and West explains their recent growth. But the usual argument focuses on the wrong regulations.

Housing regulations, more than those that bind standard businesses, explain the Sun Belt’s population growth. If New York and Massachusetts want to stop losing Congressional seats, then they must revisit the rules that make it so difficult to build. High prices show that the demand would be there if the supply is unleashed.


http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/28/behind-the-population-shift/



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RE: But..but...they have high taxes!! - 12/30/2010 2:44:14 PM   
Charles6682


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I think its really fair to say a very big reason people are coming to the South and the West is mainly because of the warm weather.I doubt its because of their great culture.

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RE: But..but...they have high taxes!! - 12/30/2010 2:59:33 PM   
mnottertail


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So, global warming?

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RE: But..but...they have high taxes!! - 12/30/2010 4:32:15 PM   
Charles6682


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I think people need to put a few facts in place.There are good reasons why the cost of living is higher in the Northeastern USA than places in the South and Western parts of the USA.One,people up North need to have their streets plowed.That is going to cost extra money in taxes to have snow cleared off the roads.Also,it does cost some money to heat your homes.Not everywhere has to worry about this except a few nights a year.Also,people in the North may pay extra money on welfare because it would simply be inhumane to let a homeless person die in the freezing cold weather.Down here in Flordia for example,you can tell the homeless to sleep outside because they most likely will not freeze to death.

There are many other reasons why the cost of living may be higher in the Northeast.The long,cold winters do make a huge factor when you consider why the cost of living is going to be higher in the Northeast.

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RE: But..but...they have high taxes!! - 12/30/2010 5:38:16 PM   
servantforuse


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The city of New York did a great job of plowing the streets this last week. 4 days later and it's still a mess. Where did those tax dollars go?

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RE: But..but...they have high taxes!! - 12/30/2010 7:16:27 PM   
truckinslave


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Actually, that's much more of a problem for rural ares such as WV.

Hundreds of miles of country roads for a few dozen farmhouses, repeated many times.

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RE: But..but...they have high taxes!! - 12/31/2010 6:39:28 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

The city of New York did a great job of plowing the streets this last week. 4 days later and it's still a mess. Where did those tax dollars go?

To tow all the abandoned cars out of the way so they could then plow?

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RE: But..but...they have high taxes!! - 12/31/2010 4:54:13 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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If $12 million in taxes didnt influence LeBron, he needs a new business manager.

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RE: But..but...they have high taxes!! - 1/1/2011 9:10:53 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

If $12 million in taxes didnt influence LeBron, he needs a new business manager.


What are you babbling about now Bonzo?

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RE: But..but...they have high taxes!! - 1/1/2011 10:15:27 AM   
MrRodgers


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This is nothing more than an ongoing demographic shift that has been going on for 60 years kinkroids and we are seeing a right wing, capitalist spin on it as usual.

Most of these people are retirees that have already spent 40-50 years making their money in business and or professional work careers in those terrible tax and regulatory regimes. Now they seek the best overall retirement environment...all things considered.

Florida and Texas has the highest tax benefits per degree of temperature I think so the whole political debate is a ruse.

Besides, some of those so-called hi-tax states need those taxes in order to bribe or pay extortion to other businesses to keep or 'acquire' jobs.

You know...tax the people not the business. (people)

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RE: But..but...they have high taxes!! - 1/1/2011 1:22:55 PM   
Fellow


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A billionaire said once that the taxes are for little people. I would believe the idea (high taxes do not matter) only when I see the data how much these companies actually pay in taxes. There are many ways (created by the US government for important people) to avoid taxes .

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