RE: Navigating the liminality (Full Version)

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Wulfchyld -> RE: Navigating the liminality (5/1/2006 2:13:18 AM)

I thinks this kon-ver-say-shun is gooder then crap!

Smylin
Loki




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Navigating the liminality (5/1/2006 6:45:23 AM)

I think you should break out of your "intelligent challenging dynamic/surrendering authority dynamic" duality view of life.

You can have both simultaneously.

Sure, sometimes it feels really good to be treated like a stupid useless chunk of flesh only good to fuck or ignore.  But you're no MORE or LESS surrendered at those times than you are while having good heated discussions.

Once you learn that balance, you won't be limited by anything.




mistoferin -> RE: Navigating the liminality (5/1/2006 9:50:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wulfchyld
I thinks this kon-ver-say-shun is gooder then crap!
Smylin
Loki


THUD!   And here I thought that "dumbing down" was something only the gals do!




Mercnbeth -> RE: Navigating the liminality (5/1/2006 10:33:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ladychatterley

... I'm just wondering how this has worked for people that it works for because it seems to me a tricky area to navigate and if I can help with the navigation, I want to do that...


submission that includes intellectual intercourse as well as other forms has never been a tricky area to navigate for this slave.  it would seem that you are asking for help on how to "act" submissive...this slave rarely sees anyone "act" submissive and have it work out for them in the long run, unless they are comfortable with that sort of posturing in an intimate relationship--this slave usually sees it successfully in the form of submitting to one's employer.
 
have you entertained the idea of taking on a sub to fulfill your erotic/romantic fantasies? it would seem to this slave that might be an easier way for you to fulfill and control your romantic & erotic side, than seeking to "serve" as a submissive to a Dominant in the manner in which you describe in your profile.




babysburnin -> RE: Navigating the liminality (5/1/2006 11:19:36 AM)

Submitting to someone does not equal not being yourself.  My Dom and I are multi-faceted.  We are in-love, we are friends, and he is my Dom. 

Sometimes, I say things along the lines of friend and lover when HE wants the submissive response.  It's a learning curve - reading HIM.  (fun studies [;)]).  The lines do get blurred - just talk...




ladychatterley -> RE: Navigating the liminality (5/1/2006 6:39:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoulfulSadism
With people who minds are 'working' all the time, it's important that the conversation not become too single tracked.

Lets say I am sexcited and having a great intellectual conversation with a woman. Pretty soon I am  feeling 'woohoo - brains n bdsm - jackpot'. If the conversation remains purely intellectual however, chances are pretty good that by the time it ends - it's not a man n woman who talked; it was only 2 minds. And unless the connection was seriously special, I would go home with that feeling. Meaning - there were moments in that conversation where the dom in me and the sub in you needed to connect - and that moment was lost. And quite often it's ir-recoverable because after all, being a dom is what defines me internally; that's where my instincts and intensity live.


Yes!  That is exactly what I was trying to say! THANK YOU! 

Clothespingirl--I'm going to practice your suggestions.

And my problem (or at least one of them) is that I don't know how to navigate except through intellect. I'm not saying that to say I'm great--I'd much rather be wise than smart.  I'd rather be normal than smart.  Deconstructing cultural paradigms of toothpaste isn't like "wow-there's a skill everyone needs!" it is the by-product of an undisciplined mind that is no longer really connected to what matters.  (Sorry if I just offended toothpaste paradigm deconstructors, but since someone posted that from my profile, I assume I'm only explaining myself.)  I'd like to learn to experience the world through other ways of knowing, but I don't know how.  I keep hoping someone will grab my hair and say "No--listen--you aren't in charge here" but I don't have the strength to subdue my intellect.  Or strength isn't the right word, as I did that for year.  I don't know how to be truly in the present moment and give what I've got unless someone realizes that most of what I've got is on an intellectual realm.

When someone says "I'm strong"--it isn't just a good thing.  It is also a defense mechanism, a survival skill, a way that tumultuous waters were navigated. It may be the product of years of pain and something they want to let go of, but it still defines them.  They can pretend to be weak and helpless, but they aren't really present when that happens. It may be that they'd like nothing more than to let go of having to be strong, but don't know how, and so they just need to be honest with it because otherwise they'll always have something to prove later on and being upfront about it is the only way they'll later be able to be fully present with someone else.




TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Navigating the liminality (5/1/2006 7:04:20 PM)

In my relationships with those who serve me, I demand that they, at all times, use their intellect to its fullest extent.  One of the things I first discuss with any slave who enters my service is how I expect them to react to any request I make of them.  I tell them that there are two paths to choose from:

   1) They can listen, analyze and obey.
or
   2) The can listen, analyze, question and obey.

There is little doubt that I respect those who serve me as much for their intellect as for their physical charms, yet, in the end, I am the final authority, or they do not belong in my service.

I imagine much of your problem is that you do not first frame a relationship dynamic before you begin to challenge those you wish to serve.  It is one thing for a slave to come up to me and say "Master, I think you have made a mistake in logic, can we discuss this?" and another for some stranger to come up to me at a munch and tell me way of practicing BDSM is barbaric.  A challenge made in the context of submission should not drive a dominant away...

Taggard




mayapple -> RE: Navigating the liminality (5/1/2006 9:35:05 PM)

Many of the very helpful replies here have addressed the Dom's attitude and approach, but you yourself quite rightly are asking for help in navigating the chasm you feel not just between yourself and a potential Dom but also within yourself.  For this, I think you need to adopt a new way of looking at submission.  You love intellectual challenges.  Submission can be your new intellectual challenge... you can attempt to deconstruct submission, and you might possibly get somewhere with it.  But more than that, I hope you will consider attempting to expand your inner bag of tools, for you freely acknowledge that you rely heavily on your intellect in nearly all matters, and it is possible that your intellect might stand between you and profound submission.
 
My Dom took quite a different approach than what we've heard so far on this thread.  And in fact I discussed your question with him today.  It interested me because I am quite intellectual myself and my Dom is not, and somehow our relationship works very well for both of us.  I do not feel I need to hide from my own intellect, even though he may not be calling on it as much as some of the Doms here call on the intellect in their submissives.
 
First: please do not expect to surrender control all in one grand gesture.  Submission is often granted and taken bit by bit, and especially since you are new to submission it would make sense to think in modest terms at first, even with your eye on total surrender in the future.
 
You are looking to be tamed.  So was I.  I craved submission but had no idea how to summon it.  I met several Doms who similarly had no clue and concluded I was not really a submissive at all.  I found out the hard way that my strong will was not serving me well as a submissive-in-waiting.  And so inside myself I resolved that if I really wanted to experience submission then I would need to calm or quiet the part of me that loves to win arguments and debates.  I also needed to put away my intellectual snobbery and be willing to submit to the man who could inspire my submission, even if he might not seek to be my intellectual sparring partner.  I had plenty of others in my life who could serve that role.
 
I realized that in my lifelong submission fantasies, my intellect was completely irrelevant.  The dominating man I conjured up in my fantasies did not care about my intellect; he valued only my submission, my obedience.  In my fantasies, it was in reluctantly casting aside my own pride and my own will that I found the surprising thrill of submission.  That is what I hoped to find in my real life.  So I had to be willing to pursue it, I thought, with as much abandon as I had in my fantasies, even if in both fantasies and reality it was not reckless abandon but a gradual unfolding of abandon.
 
It takes profound trust in both the man and the quest... and profound trust in yourself, too... that all will be worth the gamble.  If you cling to what you know well, to what has always worked for you in the vanilla world, you may well find it a crutch in the world of domination and submission.
 
My Dom was telling me from very early on that he was very proud of me.  But he never told me he was proud of my intellect.  No... he was proud of my budding submission, my baby steps of obedience.  And gradually I began to pride myself on my obedience, too.  When I sometimes found myself balking, I knew it was time to rise to the challenge and try harder to please him with my obedience... not with my 101 reasons why I felt like resisting his will.
 
Sometimes when my Dom most wants me to focus on what he wants to say, he binds me, blindfolds me, and gags me.  What good is my intellect when my world is temporarily reduced to the sound of his voice and the sensation of ropes and his touch?  I can struggle in my mind for all I'm worth, and launch a raging internal debate, but for what?  If I am there to submit to his will... well, I love what Taggard wrote about the two choices: 1) listen, analyze and obey,  or 2) listen, analyze, question (respectfully, of course!) and obey.  Gradually I am letting go of analyzing and questioning, and that does not mean I aspire to be a doormat ever, I assure you!!!  But there is something strangely gratifying about doing a consolidated version of the intellectual debate inside of myself, unvoiced, and then getting on with my submission... or bracing myself and voicing a question with as much humility as I can muster (something I had never attempted before in my life!).
 
A new mindset of humility is something you can cultivate inside of yourself, now, without waiting for a Dom to drag it out of you.  In fact I realized my newfound humility is spilling over into my vanilla world, and I recently found myself saying, "I am learning to be more humble, but I'm also finding out that I can pride myself on my humility!"
 
Just a few humble suggestions or possible food for thought......




BitaTruble -> RE: Navigating the liminality (5/2/2006 1:37:57 AM)

LadyC, this is not meant to be offensive to you in any way, but you are over thinking. You have gotten several amazing responses, full of insights and deep meanings, but the question you ask is a simple one with a very simple answer which seems to have been missed.

quote:

Are there ways of letting a potential Dom know that you would welcome surrendering control? 


You tell him.  ;)

Celeste




sfogarty -> RE: Navigating the liminality (5/3/2006 8:24:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ladychatterley

Liminality is that space between two well defined spaces. And I seem to get lost in the liminality between "having a great, smart, engaged, impassioned conversation" and "submissive."

For those of you who do not have TPE, who challenge your Doms on intellectual, political, spiritual or artistic ideas, how do you navigate that space between? Are there ways of letting a potential Dom know that you would welcome surrendering control? Can you then go back to the great, smart intelligent impassioned conversation? I want to explore this world, but I never seem to jump the chasm with a Him.


I think I can identify with this quesiton: I am not a very good convesrationalist when I'm in a very submissive headspace. I'm too quiet, too slow, and often have a hard time stringing an entire sentance together.

Me and my dom have very frequent philosophical discussions, which are endlessly engaging. We have frequent discussions on how power exchange works for us, which are endlessly engaging. The later /much/ more often involve specific feelings of power exchange, with the headspace that goes with it, although obviously not to the extreme outlined above. Even when we are being casual and talking we can slip into a bit of a headspace. The key, I think, to navigating these conflicting mental states of cognition and (for me) primal, instinctive submission is to allow myself to slip in between them. When something triggers a stronger submissive response, I will trail off and not talk for a little bit. Slowly I'll come up, and if something gets me thinking I will respond without worrying overmuch about 'abandoning my submission'. She is perfectly capable of reasserting that headspace if she wants it, and she enjoys talking to me on a cognitive level as well as dominance interaction, and if I find myself longing for that state there are things I can do to suggest it.

So, to briefly answer: I allow myself to be in one state or the other as the conversation demands.




sfogarty -> RE: Navigating the liminality (5/3/2006 8:27:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I think you should break out of your "intelligent challenging dynamic/surrendering authority dynamic" duality view of life.

You can have both simultaneously.

Sure, sometimes it feels really good to be treated like a stupid useless chunk of flesh only good to fuck or ignore. But you're no MORE or LESS surrendered at those times than you are while having good heated discussions.


Well, some people might be able to. Submission feels like a very immediate thing for me, and it works at levels that often make convesration (or rational thought) difficult. So while I wouldn't say I'm less surrendered when engaged in high-level conversations with my dom, there is less power exchange at the moment. This, I feel, in no way diminishes the value of my submission.




CrappyDom -> RE: Navigating the liminality (5/3/2006 8:58:42 PM)

Few things give me a raging hard on like brains and your profile is one that I would respond to in a heartbeat if you were local.  There are various schools of thought to writing profiles, some say cast a wider net and sort them out on a date, some say make a self selecting profile that screens them out before, who's to say which is right.

That said, my previous submissive was smart enough to at times make me look like a simpleton.  First time in my life I was really treasured for my brawn over my brains (and of course my intense modesty of which there is no equal).  Face it, you are an intellectual and stand out in a very very VERY big pond where very very few survive.  The man you are seeking isn't going to be easy to find but trust me, when he sees you, he is going to come charging in because you are a rare find.

Ignore the naysayers here but there is also much thoughtful and insightful advice that is well worth rereading and considering.  Then get your tail out into the public NY scene and start flaunting your ample assets and let people who you find interesting know you are looking and somebody will either fall for you or know someone who will.

Best of luck!

M.




pmlbear -> RE: Navigating the liminality (5/3/2006 10:45:00 PM)

Wow! see, things like this get the Synapsis firing and it goes on like the Energizer bunny! I love intelegent women they are so imaginative!!




pmlbear -> RE: Navigating the liminality (5/3/2006 10:49:09 PM)

I whole heartily agree. the best ideas come streight at you and no deep thought is needed simply ask him and/or tell him what you want. no pondering is required.




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