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Navigating the liminality - 4/30/2006 6:57:23 PM   
ladychatterley


Posts: 132
Joined: 3/10/2006
Status: offline 		Liminality is that space between two well defined spaces.  And I seem to get lost in the liminality between "having a great, smart, engaged, impassioned conversation" and "submissive."

For those of you who do not have TPE, who challenge your Doms on intellectual, political, spiritual or artistic ideas, how do you navigate that space between?  Are there ways of letting a potential Dom know that you would welcome surrendering control?  Can you then go back to the great, smart intelligent impassioned conversation?  I want to explore this world, but I never seem to jump the chasm with a Him.
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RE: Navigating the liminality - 4/30/2006 7:45:34 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		I'd like to have you clarfiy a point before answering...are you saying that the submissive being able to challenge the Dominant intellectually doesn't allow for a TPE relationship?

Fire


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(in reply to ladychatterley)
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RE: Navigating the liminality - 4/30/2006 7:53:11 PM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

I'd like to have you clarfiy a point before answering...are you saying that the submissive being able to challenge the Dominant intellectually doesn't allow for a TPE relationship?

Fire



I hate to speak for ladychatterly... but I think she is not saying that you can not have a very well honed mind and be a submissive, rathter that.. sometimes as we give ourselves over and perhaps even tame ourselves with our own thoughts of how to be 'more submissive' give up little bits along the way, fearing they will appear less than fully surrendered.  I know ... I have always lost a lot of my humor for what ever reason.. as if I get too wise cracky and wry I might be found less than pleasing, when my owner had a wonderful sense of humor.. so go figure?

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)
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RE: Navigating the liminality - 4/30/2006 7:53:41 PM   
akisha


Posts: 2071
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline 		Why would you want a submissive that you couldn't have an intellecual conversation with? This is some one you spend a majority of time with. If you can't talk to each other, other then giving commands, it's going to be a very boring and unstimulating relationship. I would think anyhow.

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(in reply to MasterFireMaam)
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RE: Navigating the liminality - 4/30/2006 8:09:29 PM   
ladychatterley


Posts: 132
Joined: 3/10/2006
Status: offline 		I'm sorry if I phrased it wrong.
The question is coming from MY experience, with all my baggage of growing up and being told not to challenge men and even being told to laugh at my brother's jokes (and he was 8 years younger than me!  How many 14 year olds find a 6 year old joke's funny? But he was a man and "a lady always laughs at a gentleman's jokes") and spending years playing dumb on dates and then spending a couple of years trying to prove I was smart and now wanting to just be me, not prove anything but not apologize for anything either.

The men I have the most exciting conversations with, somehow it never moves beyond that.  We get stuck talking about intellectual things, and I have to think they were, at some point, interested, or why would they talk to me for an hour at a munch? Or e-mail me several dozen times but never ask me out? 

I may be more challenging than I should be, but I am.  The first time I met my favorite celebrity, a man I came pretty darn close to worshipping, a man that some people still identify me with to this day and his work has probably changed my thinking and sense of the world more than any other person's and yet I challenged him--there were 200 people in the room and he and I started arguing over an obscure issue (and he loved it--when the governor introduced me to him that night, we continued right where we left off and he has been gracious to me to this day).  So I'm very good at it, and I love the exciting exchange of ideas where you pull out a thread and see what is clinging to it.  Especially when you agree on fundamental values but don't necessarily know the best implementation or all the implications.  Maybe it is left over from when I was working on my dissertation, but it is something that really engages and enlivens me. 

But something isn't working and I just don't quite know what it is.  It feels like either I haven't met the man strong enough to push through the liminality, or (which I think is more likely) I'm not doing anything to invite an opening, or perhaps I'm ignoring subtle hints, or something.  I'm just wondering how this has worked for people that it works for because it seems to me a tricky area to navigate and if I can help with the navigation, I want to do that.

(in reply to akisha)
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RE: Navigating the liminality - 4/30/2006 8:13:40 PM   
Wulfchyld


Posts: 2618
Joined: 12/7/2005
Status: offline 		Hangs his opinion next to akisha’s.
Loki

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Submission is not a gift... it is plunder!
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Dom/mes of a feather, beat the f*ck out of slaves together


(in reply to ladychatterley)
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RE: Navigating the liminality - 4/30/2006 8:18:35 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Liminality is also defined as being neither this nor that. I don't think that one has to give up one to be the other. I also don't think that you expressing your intellectual, political, artisitic or spiritual views needs to be a challenge....even when your views differ from theirs. I don't personally know of any Dominants who see intellectual wallflowerism to be a charming or especially submissive trait. Your thoughts and views are a huge part of what makes you "you". I think that most Dominants are seeking to know all of what that is.

_____________________________

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~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to ladychatterley)
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RE: Navigating the liminality - 4/30/2006 8:24:15 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		I am about as submissive as I can be to my Master, yet we have intellectually stimulating dialogue.  If I did not have a thinking mind which was capable of bringing new ideas to the table, he would not be very impressed, for sure.   Where I will never challenge an instruction, I challenge concepts from time to time.  How do I challenge them?  I tell him my point of view and ask him to clarify his, because I don't understand it....or I do understand it but I don't think I agree with it.  Then we'll have a conversation about it...or not, whatever his preference. :)

(in reply to ladychatterley)
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RE: Navigating the liminality - 4/30/2006 8:30:49 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ladychatterley
spending years playing dumb on dates and then spending a couple of years trying to prove I was smart and now wanting to just be me, not prove anything but not apologize for anything either.


Ahhhh....I understand this well. Been there a time or two myself. This is just a combination of conditioning and a habit that was developed somewhere along the way to fit in.

For me, I was just a brainiac. It was a wonderful thing to be...right up until I realized that I had more than just a passing interest in boys. Well, teenage boys want pretty girls, they want fun girls, they want party girls...what they don't want are brainy girls. So Presto Magico! I became an instant bimbo. It worked well...on teenage boys. I find that it doesn't work well in adulthood though, and quite honestly, I have no desire to "dumb down" to fit in with anyone. If they can't keep up then they are not who I will find fulfilling.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 4/30/2006 8:33:01 PM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to ladychatterley)
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RE: Navigating the liminality - 4/30/2006 8:52:01 PM   
ladychatterley


Posts: 132
Joined: 3/10/2006
Status: offline 		How do you succesful navigate that first moment when you go from challenging an intellectual idea to surrendering control?  My intellect is strong--she knows how to control the world and doesn't always cede control gracefully, but I have her under control.  What I don't have is the protocol for knowing how myself and a Dom could navigate this unnamed, undefined space from one clearly known model (intellectual discourse) to another (D/s). 

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Navigating the liminality - 4/30/2006 8:56:18 PM   
TexasMaam


Posts: 1467
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		Try being less condescending.

TexasMaam

(in reply to ladychatterley)
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RE: Navigating the liminality - 4/30/2006 9:15:31 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ladychatterley
How do you succesful navigate that first moment when you go from challenging an intellectual idea to surrendering control?  My intellect is strong--she knows how to control the world and doesn't always cede control gracefully, but I have her under control.  What I don't have is the protocol for knowing how myself and a Dom could navigate this unnamed, undefined space from one clearly known model (intellectual discourse) to another (D/s). 


Unless there is one part of you who is a pushy know-it-all type who doesn't know how to eloquently assert your opinions without making the person you are conversing with feel inferior....then I really don't see that there is a liminality. As long as you are not crossing the line between assertiveness and aggressiveness there should not be a problem. I see assertion as the communication of and standing up for one's thoughts, feelings, views, opinions or beliefs without overstepping the boundaries of anothers. Aggression, on the other hand is done without regard for the boundaries of anothers. One does not have to "cede control gracefully" if one knows how to communicate gracefully.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 4/30/2006 9:16:52 PM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to ladychatterley)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Navigating the liminality - 4/30/2006 9:19:11 PM   
Clothespingirl


Posts: 82
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		I think the way to lead your conversations in the right direction is to choose the subject matter strategically.  Go through the discussions on the board here and pick out some that are good for hours of talk.  Like: "What's the difference between a sub and a slave?";   "What's the best way to approach a dominant?";  "What qualities make a man dominant instead of just a top?";  "Have you tried that evil-looking flogger that Jim just got?".  That kind of stuff.  Do your best to draw him out and get his opinions.

To encourage him to think along the proper lines, make sure to be wearing a tight top.  Clasp your hands behind your head and stare meditatively off into the distance.  Smile thoughtfully at him when he makes a good point.  Stretch luxuriously a few times.  Then scrape him up off the floor and take him to bed.



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"Cheeky bitch"

(in reply to ladychatterley)
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RE: Navigating the liminality - 4/30/2006 9:33:11 PM   
pmlbear


Posts: 33
Joined: 4/23/2006
Status: offline 		I believe that when you find a point,  allow yourself to let go to the animal in you and for her to breath. Then when the playtime is over then become the intelegent woman you enjoy being. By allowing this you relax completely and enjoy the expeience. By being only one way the balance of your whole person turns 2 dimentional and plays to the single facet the is in the jewel of who you are. All persons are more than just a single side or facet. As an Ogre is an "onion" we Human Beings are "Diamonds"  either rough or cut we are very precious to those to whom we fit. Please, find balance, allow your time here to be balanced and then you will find peace in all your endeavors.
      Be the Girl at play.
      Be the Chef in the kitchen.
      Be the Whore in the bedroom
      Be the Itelectual in the workplace and
      Be the Submissive with your Chosen Dom
"Be or Don't be, there is no try" (Yoda?)

(in reply to TexasMaam)
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RE: Navigating the liminality - 4/30/2006 10:20:34 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I think I know what you are asking and if I got it wrong I am sorry to waste your time with my answer...

I was often "ordered" to have intellectual discourse for my dominant's pleasure as he enjoyed this aspect of my personality. I was encouraged to express my ideas, even when they did not agree with his. He would often challenge me or demand I explain a view that I held, and he never ridiculed my views ever. (yes he was FAR left of center ladychatterly...smiles). I was very spoiled by this I suppose, and seek this aspect in any new dominant that I choose to involve myself with because I would be very unsuited to someone that was not like this.

I think that the core of this is respect for the person you are conversing with. I once negotiated with a dom that stated that he would use my intellect to empower him in my submission to him, in other words have me discuss political philosophy that he had assigned me to read and then order me to perform some act or other, it was a turn on for him to think about this. I am a scholar you see.. you might not know this from my posts on this board because I am lazy with my netiquette at times and I spend far too much time on structure of my writing in my professional life to worry about it on a forum... lol.

If you seek someone that will value this asset you have (meaning a keen and questioning intellect) then hold out for "The One" that will value it, there are many intelligent dominants out there that will prize what you have to offer. It is too damn easy to dominate a barbie doll, it takes finesse to do so to someone with substantial gray matter upstairs.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ladychatterley)
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RE: Navigating the liminality - 4/30/2006 10:31:34 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Oh my. Normally I take a quick glance at a poster's profile before I answer a question. Now I know why it is that I do that. I believe I think I may have stumbled across the "problem" you are having....

I took these quotes from your profile......

I've got two masters already (and a phd), but one more would be perfect
 
I am not a ‘real’ submissive, and I don’t have any desire to be a “real submissive.”  I’m just me and I’m not interested in conforming to an ideal that worked for other people but doesn't necessarily have bearing on my life.
 
I will be far more successful at pleasing someone who likes to brag about his partner’s achievements (and in the eyes of the world, I want to be your partner) than more traditional submissive elements.  (Right now I’m in 2 of the Who’s Who books, but my apartment is a mess.)  I am very smart, but I don’t know that I’m particularly wise.
 
Seeking someone who will cherish my intellect; I’m very smart, and it is something that makes me uniquely me—I hope it will make you proud.
 
I can’t trust without my intellect getting in and checking the situation out, taking things apart and examining the underlying framework, and then she likes to think she is control.  You need to be strong enough to keep my intellect in-line.  It will always be a player and I don’t want to be with someone that won’t value it, but it shouldn’t have control.  Most men don’t know how to allow my intellect to check things out, and then start to tame her; and unless you take control, she will deconstruct the socio-economic paradigms of toothpaste.
 
Now I don't mean to be rude, really I don't. I don't know you at all but had I come across your profile before this thread began I would have placed you squarely in the "Over-inflated Opinion of Self and Delusions of Grandeur" category. If this is the way that you project who you are to potential Dominants, I can indeed see why you are having difficulty. I would suggest trying to be a little less pompous as there have been some other pretty good things that have come along since sliced white bread. I fully believe that one should never underestimate their value or worth as I find low self esteem a completely undesirable characteristic in a human being. I find the opposite of that even less appealing though.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to ladychatterley)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Navigating the liminality - 4/30/2006 10:53:17 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Well I do not think that it is over inflated necessarily to be honest about one's accomplishments...

That being said I might be intimidated by those accomplishments too if I were a prospective dom looking for my sub.

What I did note though was statement about not being a "real submissive".. even though this moght not be what was meant, a dom looking would possibily not consider the person writing to be one because of that. There are a lot of men on collarme looking for someone who is a sub at home and a strong woman otherwise (in fact most I have talked to do not want someone that will be in sub-mode 24-7 in public... and most would like a partner to help them in vanilla activities.

Perhaps the problem is in the wording of "real" submissive, because I do not know what that even means...smiles. It is ok to be on collarme and be a bottom if that is your only desire, and there are plenty of Tops on here too... Perhaps that is the trouble, but I think she should be proud of her accomplishments... unfortunately the more stellar we are the harder it is for someone else to "Master" us...lol. It is hard to find someone to be as accomplished in the vanilla world, and it may be just a little harder in the BDSM world to find your academic equal.

I am in the process of applying to graduate school, but I do not care if my dom is formally educated as long as he is as intelligent or more so than me... because education is not really a measure of intelligence, it is something someone does with their intellect. Some of the most intelligent people I have ever met were not formally educated. That is why I leave that off my profile, because it is not as important to me as being able to talk to me. They will find out how bright I am (or how dense I am....lol) when they get to know me and vice versa...Perhaps that might be a good strategy for you ladychatterly?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Navigating the liminality - 4/30/2006 11:09:51 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
she should be proud of her accomplishments...


I think everyone should be proud of their accomplishments. Pride laced with a touch of humility though is much preferred over screaming "Look at ME!, Look at ME!".

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Navigating the liminality - 4/30/2006 11:44:50 PM   
Reasonable


Posts: 459
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline 		When someone is so damned good at being an intellectual during a conversation, that I feel drained by it all-it really doesn't leave me much energy to wish to pursue another course. Or desire.

By which I mean,.another course of the person who just did it.....tiresome.

There's fun,and there's work. Try harder to be more of one-and less of another.

(in reply to ladychatterley)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Navigating the liminality - 5/1/2006 12:17:53 AM   
SoulfulSadism


Posts: 53
Joined: 9/3/2005
Status: offline 		I like intelligent women. My personal opinion on your 'submitting vs intellectual conversation' is:

With people who minds are 'working' all the time, it's important that the conversation not become too single tracked.

Lets say I am sexcited and having a great intellectual conversation with a woman. Pretty soon I am  feeling 'woohoo - brains n bdsm - jackpot'. If the conversation remains purely intellectual however, chances are pretty good that by the time it ends - it's not a man n woman who talked; it was only 2 minds. And unless the connection was seriously special, I would go home with that feeling. Meaning - there were moments in that conversation where the dom in me and the sub in you needed to connect - and that moment was lost. And quite often it's ir-recoverable because after all, being a dom is what defines me internally; that's where my instincts and intensity live.

The other side - say I have just had sex and afterwards stepped into a bar looking to shoot some pool, have a beer, and split home. If I were to run into an intellectual sub just then - I'd get bored if the conversation was all flirting/sex - because that's the time when my upper mind is way more restless than the lower one. But - the perfect mix would be a slowly intensifying debate/talk, and as some sex/flirty/bdsm talk now n then.

I guess a good conversation is like spending a day with someone: the tone has been set. And in general, you want each day to have a good mix of everything, right ?

That said, it's pretty easy to feel intelligence. I can usually tell within 10-15 minutes how intelligent a sub is - it's those touches she brings to obeying even the simplest of orders.

Oh and TPE and intelligent conversations are not mutually exclusive. Once the initial few days set a good tone, and the connections made, their will be that feeling of naturalness to everything. It's pretty simple - if both of you are hungry for giving/receiving power *and* for intelligent debates - you WILL have them.

If winning/losing arguments comes into play - it's the way winning/losing an argument is done that matters. Just keep some time between a heated angry debate and hot angry revenge sex - and it will be all good.

(in reply to ladychatterley)
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