RE: When a sub says "No"

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Focus50 -> RE: When a sub says "No" (1/1/2011 9:05:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance Well, If I say No I dont wish to have sex, and my Dom decided that him as the dom wants to have sex anyway because hes the dom and thats what i "signed up for..." it means hes raping me taking me against my will, and thats illegal. If I say No and my partner continues, i will press charges for that person continuing and assaulting me against my will... Hence the explaining NO... means NO.... it doesnt mean well maybe or some times its okay it means stop cease desist... dont do it. Ive said no a total of two times in an established power dynamic, and both of those times were for that person violating my limits completely. Its my "this is no longer a power dynamic we are no longer in a relationship where your demands matter... It means Im revoking that consent due to the fact you or I or something here is SERIOUSLY fucked up." (Does that clear it up for ya?) In a generalised sense, it certainly clears up why I avoid the young ones and their dramatics.... lol I guess the fuzzy lines (for me) are where you say on the one hand (to LP) that you're not trying to wrest relationship power, yet your overall tone makes consent sound like a switch you're likely to flick at any given moment. Consent is not a utility switch available to my sub, though she can withdraw consent via ending the relationship. That she's willingly in a D/s or M/s relationship with me means consent is always implied, that I'm not obligated to ask any or everytime I want something of her or her body - which makes "no" moot. Conversely, I don't disrespect her trust in me to act honourably in regard to her well-being. Same for a hard limit.... She doesn't get to say "no" there, either, because crossing agreed lines just won't intentionally happen. This is how I see and live a mature relationship - the kind that doesn't threaten to involve the law at any tick of the clock. That'd be a reference more to youthful dramatics - in case you didn't mean it literally.... IE, I'm 56 and yet to have a partner threaten to or actually involve the law. Nor have I ever given them reason to.... Focus.

Toppingfrmbottom -> RE: When a sub says "No" (1/1/2011 9:40:21 PM)
If I said no, daddy wouldn't push it, he belives no means no, and would have no desire to make me play if I didn't want to. We have the oposit problem, I always want sex play and he never really does. quote: ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic Yeah I realize there are definitely a lot of mitigating factors wrapped up in this open-ended question. I'm just curious to hear how various couples/individuals approach this. Thanks for the feedback Aquatic.

Toppingfrmbottom -> RE: When a sub says "No" (1/1/2011 10:16:29 PM)
My now x couldn't gracefully accept no, and he'd pout an act like a jerk, knowing fullwell I don't do well with being pressured or treated badly, having been molested and treated badly when I refused sex with my molester. it never helped he never really tried to put me in the mood at these times, or be understanding, one such time I got angry, told him to pack his shit, I was sending him home. I ended up going next door venting, and in the end not sending him home, but man, his inability to be graceful bout me not wanting sex, that was one trait that I do not miss now he's an x. quote: ORIGINAL: hausboy OP Just one more opinion on the pile here: For me (and what was my long term relationship)--either one of us had the right to say "no' any time, for any reason. Our BDSM relationship was not 24/7 in the traditional sense, and we both felt strongly that if one of us was not physically or mentally up for sex/play/etc. at that moment, that it would not be enjoyable for either of us. We both (my ex and I) have histories that involved sexual abuse/rape/non-consentual activity--and so it was particularly important that when it came to our bodies, that if either of us needed some control of our bodies at that moment, that it was afforded. So for me, in my house, "no" pretty much always means "no" without any other dynamic involved.

SpiritedRadiance -> RE: When a sub says "No" (1/1/2011 11:32:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Focus50 [ In a generalised sense, it certainly clears up why I avoid the young ones and their dramatics.... lol I guess the fuzzy lines (for me) are where you say on the one hand (to LP) that you're not trying to wrest relationship power, yet your overall tone makes consent sound like a switch you're likely to flick at any given moment. Consent is not a utility switch available to my sub, though she can withdraw consent via ending the relationship. That she's willingly in a D/s or M/s relationship with me means consent is always implied, that I'm not obligated to ask any or everytime I want something of her or her body - which makes "no" moot. Conversely, I don't disrespect her trust in me to act honourably in regard to her well-being. Same for a hard limit.... She doesn't get to say "no" there, either, because crossing agreed lines just won't intentionally happen. This is how I see and live a mature relationship - the kind that doesn't threaten to involve the law at any tick of the clock. That'd be a reference more to youthful dramatics - in case you didn't mean it literally.... IE, I'm 56 and yet to have a partner threaten to or actually involve the law. Nor have I ever given them reason to.... Focus. Im a rape survivor. Having anyone violate the word no is the most harmful thing any person can ever do to me. Im sorry you find it as youthful dramatics, but its a point that if its crossed I cannot and simply will not accept in my life. I will stick by my saying No, and invoking the consequences my partner continuing, just as If I would stick by pressing charges If I ever found myself in a situation of being sexually assaulted again. If I say no, it means no, and my partners are well aware of the consequences of pressing that issue. It means that at that point until we settle our differences we do not have a power dynamic. I am not your submissive and I'm no longer willing to fulfill that role for you until a time when this problem is resolved. Its not an issue of involving the law at the tick of a clock. I have not needed to press charges because the two times Ive said No, my partner had not pressed the issue further then my saying no. We talked and we both left the relationship mutually for unsolvable differences. I do not revoke consent unless my partner gives me an honest reason to revoke consent, like trying to force me into a poly relationship, or saying that placing me in this very tiny room with very little moving space isnt caging me its confinement. Both things are terribly huge hard limits of mine. The reasons my partners pushed is because they in their "domly know it all and are smarter then I am" beliefs thought I could handle both things happening to me. You say that you as a man do not do things that will harm your submissive, or that you do not cross hard limits or do things to damage your submissive's trust. That's amazing and an honorable thing. However you are not every dominant man nor are you in the majority of dominant men that I have met in my life. While in my experience its much more common to meet the "I know better then you possibly could" dominants Ive met several real life at munches and parties lately as well. Men and women do exist that will push and tug and try to cross a boundary just because you placed it. They get off on the power trip, these people are not compatible with me, and explaining that No is my ultimate safeword, and it means go no further or there will be legal consequences usually weeds out the people that will not be compatible with me. Like I explained several times, my saying no isn't me manipulating the situation to get what I want. What I want the most is to have a partner I do not have to say no to. Someone who is trust worthy and does not try to break that trust to get his kink on. I don't think my age has anything to do with the fact that I will stick by saying no and meaning no. I do safeword first prior to saying no, I do try to talk out the situation with that person as to why i know that this is not something good for either of us and its not some place i can go mentally emotionally or physically. I explain the reasons and I offer to go to a medical professional to back up those reasons since they are usually psychological. I usually realize well before having to say no, someone pushing the issue to push it and simply end the relationship for lack of compatibility. However I'm not perfect enough to be able to always tell when someone is going to push an issue or not.

CherryNeko -> RE: When a sub says "No" (1/2/2011 12:15:29 AM)
You're welcome! I hope that vanillacherry-popping-party went good? Also, may I ask what your personal conclusions are, after having read our responses? I'm curious! I'm sorry it took me some time to reply. I was trying to stay forever vanilla.

SexyBossyBBW -> RE: When a sub says "No" (1/2/2011 2:14:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance Im a rape survivor. Having anyone violate the word no is the most harmful thing any person can ever do to me. Im sorry you find it as youthful dramatics, but its a point that if its crossed I cannot and simply will not accept in my life. I will stick by my saying No, and invoking the consequences my partner continuing, just as If I would stick by pressing charges If I ever found myself in a situation of being sexually assaulted again To be fair, I don't believe any of us, answering this question, took into consideration, previous trauma, illnesses, or anything else not said by the OP. To be fair, you have to be as communicative as possible in a relationship, and tell him/her to handle you with care, and consideration for your past trauma, or else, indeed it could possibly become a legal problem. I am fairly empathic, and can usually feel a non-compliant/unhappy mood coming on, so that I've never have been told no. Besides that, I like an enthusiastic/happy partner-servant, so I would probably stop, and talk, if I felt our energies were not in sync. Having said that, I would never, ever, get involved with someone who threatened to entangle me legally... Especially, if I were a dominant man, afraid of being accused of rape. So, I don't think "just no" is appropriate within a relationship; but what I mean is, instead of "no," you might as well use the can we discuss this, or the dreaded "we need to talk" phrase. M

Minotauros -> RE: When a sub says "No" (1/2/2011 2:44:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SexyBossyBBW To be fair, I don't believe any of us, answering this question, took into consideration, previous trauma, illnesses, or anything else not said by the OP. To be fair, you have to be as communicative as possible in a relationship, and tell him/her to handle you with care, and consideration for your past trauma, or else, indeed it could possibly become a legal problem. I agree with that. To me a D/s relationship has to be build on trust and open communication. Even more than a vanilla relationship. Especially if something like rape happened before. You partner has to be aware of that. Not just to avoid putting you in a situation that really hurts you because of previous experiences. Simple things could trigger extreme reactions on your side. You partner should be aware of that. It isn't the fault of the rape victim that he/she was raped. But it is his/her fault if he/she doesn't tell a new partner about that. The Partner has to have the freedom to decide if he/she is willing to deal with that. quote: Having said that, I would never, ever, get involved with someone who threatened to entangle me legally... Especially, if I were a dominant man, afraid of being accused of rape. Yeah. "But she wanted to be treated like that" will surely convince every judge. That's why it is important to know what both want. If that doesn't fit the relationship simply doesn't happen.

ThePeripatetic -> RE: When a sub says "No" (1/2/2011 4:13:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CherryNeko You're welcome! I hope that vanillacherry-popping-party went good? Also, may I ask what your personal conclusions are, after having read our responses? I'm curious! I'm sorry it took me some time to reply. I was trying to stay forever vanilla. Yeah the vanilla cherry-popping party was a blast! It actually coincided with my New Years night celebration here in Japan so it worked out perfect. Little did my friends know what they were really celebrating! Muhahaha... ('evil, ornery grin') Hmmm, my personal conclusions? That's a tough one. There's been a lot of great posts and viewpoints expressed. So I think from my perspective, there have been 3 key-points that standout as central to this whole discussion: #1 – Be sure you understand and clearly establish what you're signing on for when you enter a D/s relationship. Hard limits should be discussed, clearly established, and firmly upheld. Personal histories, depending on the circumstance, should be factored in (probably sooner rather than later). #2 – Trust and communication are key! These two principles need to form the foundation of the relationship and guide both the Dominant and the submissive throughout the course of the relationship. When this dynamic is held in high regard it sounds like a good Dominant will be in tune with His/Her submissive and vice-versa. The word “No” should (hopefully) never have to be expressed, a good Dominant will just know before it gets to that point. And when that element is in place, the submissive should (ideally) have resolute trust in his/her Dominant. Obviously this is a dynamic that is not manufactured overnight but developed overtime with effort on both sides. #3 – Assuming that all of the above have been observed on a continual basis, then the submissive saying, “No, I'm not in the mood...” really isn't good enough. Ideally, the sub should be able to express 'why' he/she is saying “No”. A valid response would delve deeper than just “No”. But on the flip-side, the sub expressing “No” should be so out of character for them that the Dom/me should already have been picking up on the non-verbal signs and/or should be thinking, “Huh, somethings not right here” and deal with it accordingly (meaning, in the majority of circumstances, more communication). Hopefully I'm on the right track here. At least this is what I've taken away from the discussion so far. Thanks again everyone for chiming in, it's made for some interesting reading so far.

strangedesire -> RE: When a sub says "No" (1/2/2011 6:34:04 AM)
One thought for you, on this: quote: ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic The word “No” should (hopefully) never have to be expressed, a good Dominant will just know before it gets to that point. Learning to communicate is a process, and I don't think anyone ever gets to the point of perfect communication or understanding. If a submissive can't properly communicate what's happening with them and falls back on simply saying "no," that doesn't mean that he is a poor submissive. It means that there's room for improvement. Likewise, if a Dominant misses nonverbal cues that something is wrong and has to be told flat-out, that doesn't mean that she is a bad Dom. This is why we use safewords - because we are not mind readers, and everyone misses things.

SpiritedRadiance -> RE: When a sub says "No" (1/2/2011 7:20:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SexyBossyBBW To be fair, you have to be as communicative as possible in a relationship i do communicate just this fairly early in the friendship process...., and tell him/her to handle you with care, and consideration for your past trauma, or else, indeed it could possibly become a legal problem. I am fairly empathic, and can usually feel a non-compliant/unhappy mood coming on, so that I've never have been told no. Besides that, I like an enthusiastic/happy partner-servant, so I would probably stop, and talk, if I felt our energies were not in sync. Having said that, I would never, ever, get involved with someone who threatened to entangle me legally... Especially, if I were a dominant man, afraid of being accused of rape. Then I guess as I stated you an I would not be compatible partners, because I will stick by my pressing charges for a partner completely and utterly violating me. So, I don't think "just no" is appropriate within a relationship; but what I mean is, instead of "no," you might as well use the can we discuss this, or the dreaded "we need to talk" phrase. I would suggest you re-read the last paragraph in the post you quoted where I explain a hell of a lot happens prior to the N word being involved in my relationships. Alot of you are focusing on the part where I would press charges is my partner continued past the word no, and thats ALL your focusing on. So I have to ask, if you went on a date with a guy or girl and you were say kissing good night and that person started to undo your pants and you said No, Im not going to have sex with you, or No Stop, and they continued. Would you press charges for sexual assult in that case? Many people would. If it was a friend that was smacking you across the face or beating you up and you were asking them to stop, and they didnt.... Would you press charges? Many people would..... Why is it something so terrible and something so dramatic for me to say to my partner, if after going through every process I can think of to resolve why your pushing an issue that will cause me harm and you then try to do said issue Against my will......, Im going to call the cops and put you in jail. Just because you know the person doesnt make them forcing their will on you with out your consent okay. I have never i repeat this NEVER had to press charges against a partner, However i will if I have to in the future.

DesFIP -> RE: When a sub says "No" (1/2/2011 7:43:09 AM)
Since he prefers that I enjoy sex, if I'm not into it, but just lying there waiting for it to be over, he usually won't enjoy it either. He prefers I be into it as only then do I emit energy which he feeds off of. Usually if I say no it comes with a why. However I have learned that there are times I don't know what's wrong and usually those times indicate that I'm getting sick but am not yet symptomatic. All I know is that something's wrong. It isn't until a day or two later when I have a full blown cold that we can figure out what was the problem. One of the good things about having been in the relationship this long is that we've both learned this. And he won't take it personally because he knows that I don't say no just to annoy him.

LadyPact -> RE: When a sub says "No" (1/2/2011 7:47:53 AM)
Spirited, I think that you might want to consider that you are the exception, rather than the rule. In clip's case, I don't have to deal with repercussions of sexual assault. I've had boys where I did, and believe Me, I've taken that under consideration. For at least eighty percent of the population, this isn't a factor. In My current dynamic, I can discard it because it doesn't apply. I kind of like that. [:)] At the same time, I'm not going to lie to you. The discomfort that he experiences when he's 'not in the mood' turns Me on. I enjoy watching him suffer! Better yet, I enjoy watching him suffer for Me! I like his pain. I get off on it. That's a part of the fun in being a sadist, anyway.

LadyConstanze -> RE: When a sub says "No" (1/2/2011 8:01:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact At the same time, I'm not going to lie to you. The discomfort that he experiences when he's 'not in the mood' turns Me on. I enjoy watching him suffer! Better yet, I enjoy watching him suffer for Me! I like his pain. I get off on it. That's a part of the fun in being a sadist, anyway. I guess that's why masos tend to be drawn to sadists... When I know that in the dynamic of the relationship the consent is given, not a problem, but I really would have a problem with somebody who could be damaged. You're experience is a bit lucky I think, quite a lot of people indulging in BDSM have issues and I'd respect a No unless I'd feel it's just a power game, especially if I don't know the person all that well.

GreedyTop -> RE: When a sub says "No" (1/2/2011 8:11:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Spirited, I think that you might want to consider that you are the exception, rather than the rule. In clip's case, I don't have to deal with repercussions of sexual assault. I've had boys where I did, and believe Me, I've taken that under consideration. For at least eighty percent of the population, this isn't a factor. In My current dynamic, I can discard it because it doesn't apply. I kind of like that. [:)] At the same time, I'm not going to lie to you. The discomfort that he experiences when he's 'not in the mood' turns Me on. I enjoy watching him suffer! Better yet, I enjoy watching him suffer for Me! I like his pain. I get off on it. That's a part of the fun in being a sadist, anyway. puddles

LadyPact -> RE: When a sub says "No" (1/2/2011 8:22:00 AM)
My responses to this post are based on having the boy in My life for years. It's not new. It's not uncertain. I can't help Myself but to feel lucky. From time to time, it's hard for Me to remember what it is like to be figuring it all out. So much time has gone by. Pretty cool, though. As they say, it doesn't suck. [;)]

seekingOwnertoo -> RE: When a sub says "No" (1/2/2011 8:25:18 AM)
As a submissive man, I myself really want and Love It when a "Lady whom I am really into" tells me to do something I do not want, or am not in the mood, to do. And I share this knowing a couple of things about myself ... 1. I would not be "into" a Lady I did not trust; so there would be no fears about illegal activities etc, etc ... 2. That I am mature enough to know, that when I do not want to do something to start with, I really get into it once I get started. 3. I am a man ... so my attitude about the topic, is influenced by my male perspective. While I do appreciate that the attitude and view will of other people will vary based on a lot of different factors; Mine are: short of real sickness, being out of town on business, being pushed to meet a deadline for a client ... and other real valid reasons; a big part of my willingness to submit to a Woman is because I like being "told" to do something I feel like saying no too! It actually is ... a kink of mine! [:)]

LadyPact -> RE: When a sub says "No" (1/2/2011 8:31:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo It actually is ... a kink of mine! [:)] As they say, peel an onion..........

LadyConstanze -> RE: When a sub says "No" (1/2/2011 10:44:10 AM)
I think after a while the NO doesn't become an issue anymore because you do read each other well and know what somebody can take, but when you are starting out and getting to know each other, a no in time might be a good way to warn of treacherous ground that could cause a lot of damage.

seekingOwnertoo -> RE: When a sub says "No" (1/2/2011 11:04:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary Those who do and those who don't! Bursts out Laughing ... I never noticed Your signature before ... but I Love it! Sorry for the off topic comment!

Focus50 -> RE: When a sub says "No" (1/2/2011 11:12:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance Im a rape survivor. Having anyone violate the word no is the most harmful thing any person can ever do to me. Im sorry you find it as youthful dramatics, but its a point that if its crossed I cannot and simply will not accept in my life. I will stick by my saying No, and invoking the consequences my partner continuing, just as If I would stick by pressing charges If I ever found myself in a situation of being sexually assaulted again. If I say no, it means no, and my partners are well aware of the consequences of pressing that issue. It means that at that point until we settle our differences we do not have a power dynamic. I am not your submissive and I'm no longer willing to fulfill that role for you until a time when this problem is resolved. Its not an issue of involving the law at the tick of a clock. I have not needed to press charges because the two times Ive said No, my partner had not pressed the issue further then my saying no. We talked and we both left the relationship mutually for unsolvable differences. I do not revoke consent unless my partner gives me an honest reason to revoke consent, like trying to force me into a poly relationship, or saying that placing me in this very tiny room with very little moving space isnt caging me its confinement. Both things are terribly huge hard limits of mine. The reasons my partners pushed is because they in their "domly know it all and are smarter then I am" beliefs thought I could handle both things happening to me. You say that you as a man do not do things that will harm your submissive, or that you do not cross hard limits or do things to damage your submissive's trust. That's amazing and an honorable thing. However you are not every dominant man nor are you in the majority of dominant men that I have met in my life. While in my experience its much more common to meet the "I know better then you possibly could" dominants Ive met several real life at munches and parties lately as well. Men and women do exist that will push and tug and try to cross a boundary just because you placed it. They get off on the power trip, these people are not compatible with me, and explaining that No is my ultimate safeword, and it means go no further or there will be legal consequences usually weeds out the people that will not be compatible with me. Like I explained several times, my saying no isn't me manipulating the situation to get what I want. What I want the most is to have a partner I do not have to say no to. Someone who is trust worthy and does not try to break that trust to get his kink on. I don't think my age has anything to do with the fact that I will stick by saying no and meaning no. I do safeword first prior to saying no, I do try to talk out the situation with that person as to why i know that this is not something good for either of us and its not some place i can go mentally emotionally or physically. I explain the reasons and I offer to go to a medical professional to back up those reasons since they are usually psychological. I usually realize well before having to say no, someone pushing the issue to push it and simply end the relationship for lack of compatibility. However I'm not perfect enough to be able to always tell when someone is going to push an issue or not. Now THIS is an impressive reply. And your history is also what any dom/partner you're in a relationship with NEEDS TO KNOW, especially where hard limits are concerned as this can be a grey area.... I say this because while most subs reasonably expect a hard limit to be repected, they can equally enjoy the "edge play" of approaching one. I rationalise it that I personally don't like heights but I do get fascinated by them.... An eg; many years ago I stood below Sydney's Centrepoint Tower and looked up. After a minute or so, I decided I just have to go up there. Leaning against the glass on the observation deck, I observed two things; one of the view and one of myself. The people and cars below were sooooo tiny and (of me) that anything this bad can't really be happening - must be a dream etc. Yet I felt all tingly from the experience. Then I left.... But it wasn't an unsafe environment - I knew that all along. I got up there via a high speed elevator, not from scaling a crumbling rock face (for eg) and stood behind safety glass etc. And I think that's the point and fascination of "edge play" - but it does require advanced levels of trust. And it can't just be the dom's choice to explore one. I'd only consider it if my sub specifically asked. Fair enough, your poly example doesn't allow edge play. Kinda like being a "little bit" pregnant - no such thing, you is or you isn't. It's a distinctive line.... But given the maturity of your reply, I think you'd agree this isn't the moody "no" the OP was asking of. And why any "no" isn't acceptable as a safeword as it defeats its own purpose. Be well.... :) Focus.

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