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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 5:22:46 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita

What I find entertaining about that list is that Columbia weighs in as low #53 :)

Although to be fair they do say "Note: Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence" ... did anyone see this the other week? A modern classic :)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-11908583

(BTW whoever is the Beeb's picture editor deserves a medal )

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 5:25:43 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Yes I agree... and... if that is the case then why waste money trying to elect people that will try to change the Constitution when that is not the problem?

Because, if you remove people's access to guns, right to own guns, and remove the guns, and make possession of a gun a very serious crime, many, many fewer people carry and own guns, and thus many, many fewer people die.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 5:26:09 PM   
numuncular


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


Apparently the entire UK contingent on this board doesnt speak English. Violent crime is not total crime. Murder is not total crime.




http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

# 24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
# 46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people

That's for murder... And I know this isn't total crime, total crime the UK would be above the US

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita
# 1 Dominica: 113.822 per 1,000 people
# 2 New Zealand: 105.881 per 1,000 people
# 3 Finland: 101.526 per 1,000 people
# 4 Denmark: 92.8277 per 1,000 people
# 5 Chile: 88.226 per 1,000 people
# 6 United Kingdom: 85.5517 per 1,000 people
# 7 Montserrat: 80.3982 per 1,000 people
# 8 United States: 80.0645 per 1,000 people


But that would also depend on what is defined as a crime, in "total crime", personally I rather have my pocket picked than be killed, personal choice... Others might see it differently...

When it comes to assaults, rape and murder, the US are way way ahead of the UK, I take the pickpocketing, driving offenses, jay walking and kids found guilty for having drugs...

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass_percap-crime-assaults-per-capita
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita



shocked to see finland so high up the list, years ago when there a friend left his bicycle unlocked outside the main dept store in the main street in his home town (3rd or 4th largest in finland) I asked him if it was safe leaving it there, he looked at me like I was insane and couldnt for the life of him work out why someone would even want to steal a bicycle.

conversely he also told me we couldnt smoke pot on his balcony because someone would smell it and call the police.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 5:26:11 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


Apparently the entire UK contingent on this board doesnt speak English. Violent crime is not total crime. Murder is not total crime.




http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

# 24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
# 46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people

That's for murder... And I know this isn't total crime, total crime the UK would be above the US

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita
# 1 Dominica: 113.822 per 1,000 people
# 2 New Zealand: 105.881 per 1,000 people
# 3 Finland: 101.526 per 1,000 people
# 4 Denmark: 92.8277 per 1,000 people
# 5 Chile: 88.226 per 1,000 people
# 6 United Kingdom: 85.5517 per 1,000 people
# 7 Montserrat: 80.3982 per 1,000 people
# 8 United States: 80.0645 per 1,000 people


But that would also depend on what is defined as a crime, in "total crime", personally I rather have my pocket picked than be killed, personal choice... Others might see it differently...

When it comes to assaults, rape and murder, the US are way way ahead of the UK, I take the pickpocketing, driving offenses, jay walking and kids found guilty for having drugs...

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass_percap-crime-assaults-per-capita
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita


UN data disagrees with nationmaster by a huge margin. And if the homicide rate difference is 5 per 100,000 and largely in the inner city in the US, Id be far more concerned with assaults. They outnumber murders by a factor of 150.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 5:28:49 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


Although to be fair they do say "Note: Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence" ... did anyone see this the other week? A modern classic :)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-11908583

(BTW whoever is the Beeb's picture editor deserves a medal )



During the last trip to Cornwall, the theft of a garden gnome made the local paper, front page...

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

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Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 5:29:38 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
UN data disagrees with nationmaster by a huge margin.

And, yet again ... which study are you "quoting", what is its stated threshold point, and can you post a reference for it, please.

Thank you.

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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 5:30:55 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Yes I agree... and... if that is the case then why waste money trying to elect people that will try to change the Constitution when that is not the problem?

Because, if you remove people's access to guns, right to own guns, and remove the guns, and make possession of a gun a very serious crime, many, many fewer people carry and own guns, and thus many, many fewer people die.


But in reality that will not happen...don't you understand what it will take to change our Constitution?...IT WILL NOT happen so people are wasting time and money and ignoring the real problem... I am a realist you should be too if you truly want things to change.

Constantly harping on guns is stupid and counter productive… deflecting real progress on the real issues.

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 5:33:09 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: numuncular
shocked to see finland so high up the list, years ago when there a friend left his bicycle unlocked outside the main dept store in the main street in his home town (3rd or 4th largest in finland) I asked him if it was safe leaving it there, he looked at me like I was insane and couldnt for the life of him work out why someone would even want to steal a bicycle.

But those statistics, like a lot of statistics (92.8% to be precise*), don't make sense, or hold truth, unless you know the context.

The perception of "crime" in Finland is probably pretty low down the list - in other words, Finns probably see so little crime that pretty much anything is a crime to them ... and they have confidence in their police forces, so they report almost all crime. And the crime gets investigated, so it's logged.

So you've got a country with a relatively small population, where people are willing to report crime, knowing it will most likely be solved), so the figures look bad ... it's only when you know the threshold point and the sample context that any of it makes sense.

* and 96.4% of statistics are made up ;)

< Message edited by RapierFugue -- 1/2/2011 5:37:17 PM >

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 5:36:25 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Constantly harping on guns is stupid and counter productive… deflecting real progress on the real issues.

So taking away people's access to tools that stick bullets through other people's heads is silly, but making them feel a bit better about their own situation is going to work?

Ok ... right ... got it now ... smashing ... glad we chatted ...

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 5:37:22 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


UN data disagrees with nationmaster by a huge margin. And if the homicide rate difference is 5 per 100,000 and largely in the inner city in the US, Id be far more concerned with assaults. They outnumber murders by a factor of 150.


I found nationmaster always quite reliable, but if you care to post a link to the UN data?

Seriously, it depends what you call a crime, some things in one country might just be an offense in others they are considered a crime. I guess if you are living in a little village with 10 houses, crime is usually not so much a problem and crime rates will be fairly low, but then that might depend on what the people there see as crimes (cow breaking out of a field and munching happily away on another field, etc.), of course inner cities will have more crimes than rural areas.

I recall LA and living near Venice Beach, asked my flat mate why there is thunder, can't see lightning, she told me it's the gangs a few streets further having a fight again and it's not thunder, it's guns, made me feel quite cosy and somebody explained to me how to identify gang territory by graffiti, I all of a sudden started paying attention to graffiti and avoided certain areas when it was dark - being European I cycled, inline skated or walked as much as possible... Don't know if it has changed much in the last couple of years but it was a bit of a shock to the system, having spent 2 years before in NYC and found it quite European and not so much different, LA was a culture shock.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 5:51:06 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Constantly harping on guns is stupid and counter productive… deflecting real progress on the real issues.

So taking away people's access to tools that stick bullets through other people's heads is silly, but making them feel a bit better about their own situation is going to work?

Ok ... right ... got it now ... smashing ... glad we chatted ...


It is not silly just not realistic...It is, and will be for the foreseeable future, impossible to get 3/4's of the States legislators to change the Constitution. So we have a choice...waste money on laws that will be overturned by the courts...or use our money to attack the root problems that cause the violence.

Now why is my way of thinking so abhorrent to you? Which way of thinking is more likely to help… yours or mine?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 5:55:52 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Which way of thinking is more likely to help… yours or mine?

Since you ask, mine.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 5:58:21 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
During the last trip to Cornwall, the theft of a garden gnome made the local paper, front page...


When I first moved to Bristol, I remember the front page news of the Bristol Evening Post being about illegal golfing on the Downs. 

In saying that, the national headline murder of today, that of Jo Yeates, happened ten minutes from where I live.  It's an unpleasant feeling - pretty much like the feeling I had years ago when I discovered that my home had rats in it.  (Yes, before you ask, I have an alibi.)

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 6:00:30 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		OK how

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 6:03:09 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
OK how

I've already told you. Twice.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 6:08:37 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		No you have not...How do you get 3/4's of the State legislatures to repeal the 2nd Amendment ? That is what must be done before guns can be controlled in the US...The only way.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 6:13:33 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
No you have not...

Yes, I have.

If your nation chooses not to do it then that's their call, but your tinkering at the edges will achieve precisely 3/5ths of fuck all.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 6:15:01 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
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Status: offline 		RF, to be blunt, I don't think there's a cat's chance in hell of success for any but the most modest of measures to control gun ownership and use in the USA right now.  I've been astonished at reading the (mainly American) debates on guns here at CM.  Americans who I know to be lefties and liberals begin to sound to me like ultra-conservatives on this subject; right-wingers sound downright scary.  The cultural difference re the matter of guns is a lot bigger than I once thought. 

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 6:29:32 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I think you are wrong...Most people here in the US just want to be able to take the old shotgun out for a few rabbits...maybe the 30-06 out for a deer hunt. No different than you IF you had the places to hunt we have... you don't.

Most of us do not personally see a need for handguns but understand the right to have one is guaranteed in the Constitution. We do not want to give up this right but we are not fanatics.

There are of course the nutcases as in any society… we will have more than you…why…because we have more people.

But we are not different than you…any tool can be used to kill so focusing on the means rather than the reasons is madness.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/2/2011 6:49:16 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I think you are wrong...Most people here in the US just want to be able to take the old shotgun out for a few rabbits...maybe the 30-06 out for a deer hunt.


I've no doubt that that's true.  The standard answer's always that we have to legislate for the nutters as well as the sane people, though.  Here, the recent legal changes have occurred after cases of killings that have involved people who were, till they committed their murders, thought to be sane and balanced. 

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Profile   Post #: 160
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