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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/7/2011 6:06:26 AM   
tazzygirl


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Maybe Elisabella can help with this question. As far as I am able to discover, NewSouth Books is not the only publisher of this book, correct?

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/7/2011 6:26:33 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

If you read the reports on this, its become obvious the reason it is being done is financial... pure and simple.

Indeed. Which doesn't make it any better, of course.

When I look at these "changes", "updates", "edits" or whatever term will finally be settled on (and I note the publishers can't fix on one term yet themselves, which to me says they aren't sure about their own actions) I can't help thinking we're at the top of a very slippery slope. If great works of fiction (or even non-great works) are "unprotected" enough to be re-written at will, on the whim of the current copyright holder, then what hope is there of preserving any cultural history? As it stands, historians look back over writings and can generally identify, with a surprising degree of accuracy, their historical context, and any cultural weight they may have brought to bear, but what chance now, if we're going to rip up things every 50-100 years?

Mindful as I am of Godwin's Law, it strikes me that what we're looking at here is something very close to book-burning, only if anything it's even more obscenely hateful; don't like what a book has to say? Not a problem! You don't have to burn it any longer, and suffer the opprobrium of others. No, these days, you can instead simply alter it until all context is removed, and what you're left with is a nice, inoffensive husk of the former work.

As the change isn't being directly driven by some school board or educational edict the only thing we can hope for is that educators reject, en masse, any work which has been fundamentally altered. Sadly though, given some of the dull-witted edicts and choices made by those in positions of educational authority the last few years, I'm not especially hopeful.

Lightening the tone somewhat, lest we all get too bogged down in the rather depressing nature of this wanton act of vandalism, I was listening a while back to an interview with Mel Brooks concerning one of my favourite films; “Blazing Saddles”. Mel was explaining the various N-word references, and said the following (from memory): “To start with, I had a few of those references and gags in it. I felt uncomfortable with their use, because hey, I’m not black. I could “own” all the Jewish gags and references because, believe it or not, I’m Jewish, so I'm capable of saying what is or isn't offensive to a reasonably well-adjusted Jew.

But as I’m not also black, I didn’t feel comfortable with passing those gags. So I got Richard Prior in to re-write the script. We started with about half a dozen n****r references and gags from my script and he shocked me by, instead of removing any, adding in about another 50, including one of the other black characters calling Bart “a shifty n****r”, and expanding and making more “offensive” the “the sheriff’s a n****r!” scene. I was very surprised, and asked why he was adding instead of removing. He said “coz this shit is funny, motherfucker!”. When I asked if some people might be offended, he said something that will stay with me for all time; “when I called you a “motherfucker” just then, did you think I was insulting you?” ... I replied no, of course I didn’t, I just thought he was joking with me. “That’s the point, man. If shit’s funny then it’s funny, and nothing any tight-ass cocksucker says will make it not funny. Laughing is where we’re most honest – start thinking about whether or not shit is offensive, rather than just funny, and you end up with a motherfucking Swiss stand-up set. Fuck that, and fuck any motherfucker says different.”“

:)

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/7/2011 6:36:34 AM   
tazzygirl


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http://www.newsouthbooks.com/twain/introduction-alan-gribben-mark-twain-tom-sawyer-huckleberry-finn-newsouth-books.html

the link above explains the what and why behind the change and the editors thoughts. take a read and let me know what you think. Im still mulling it over.

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/7/2011 6:48:31 AM   
GreedyTop


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~FR~

Mel Brooks KICKS ASS!

I love Blazing Saddles..

(well, and about everything else he has done...)

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/7/2011 6:57:03 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

~FR~

Mel Brooks KICKS ASS!

I love Blazing Saddles..

(well, and about everything else he has done...)

With me it's "some and some" - he's done some very weak work at times, but Young Frankenstein and Blazing Saddles (and possibly The Producers) still rate as some of my fave comedies of all time. Yes he's often juvenile, but when he's funny he's very funny.

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/7/2011 6:59:38 AM   
GreedyTop


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History of teh world part 2?

love it!! 

Miracle!!!

then the yes yes no bit....LOL  madeline kahn... RIP...

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/7/2011 7:01:50 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

http://www.newsouthbooks.com/twain/introduction-alan-gribben-mark-twain-tom-sawyer-huckleberry-finn-newsouth-books.html

the link above explains the what and why behind the change and the editors thoughts. take a read and let me know what you think. Im still mulling it over.

"We may applaud Twain’s ability as a prominent American literary realist to record the speech of a particular region during a specific historical era, but abusive racial insults that bear distinct connotations of permanent inferiority nonetheless repulse modern-day readers. Twain’s two books do not deserve ever to join that list of literary “classics” he once humorously defined as those “which people praise and don’t read,” yet the long-lofty status of Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn has come under question in recent decades. In this connection, it seems relevant to remember that Twain habitually read aloud his day’s writings to an audience gathered on the porch of his summer retreat overlooking Elmira, New York, watching and listening for reactions to each manuscript page. He likewise took cues about adjusting his tone from lecture platform appearances, which provided him with direct responses to his diction. As a notoriously commercial writer who watched for every opportunity to enlarge the mass market for his works, he presumably would have been quick to adapt his language if he could have foreseen how today’s audiences recoil at racial slurs in a culturally altered country."

Apologist clap-trap from someone who can't understand the difference between contemporary editing and historical vandalism.

It may just be me projecting, but is the tone of that piece not generally highly apologetic, as if someone has been told to do something, but doesn't really want to do it?

Oh and "Far more controversial than this reuniting of Twain’s boy books will be the editor’s decision to eliminate two racial slurs that have increasingly formed a barrier to these works for teachers, students, and general readers. The editor thus hopes to introduce both books to a wider readership than they can currently enjoy" can be usefully translated as "SHOW ME THE MONEY!" ;)

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/7/2011 7:04:42 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

History of teh world part 2?

love it!! 

Hmmmmm ... that one is one of his "ok, so-so, not fussed" ones AFAIC ... it's not "bad" per se, it just doesn't have the wit that, say, The Producers does, for me at least.

But hey humour is, as we're always saying, a wholly personal thing ... but I think we can all agree that comedy is you falling off a 1,000 ft cliff and dying, and tragedy is me falling off a 1,000 ft. cliff and dying ;)

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/7/2011 7:06:34 AM   
Marc2b


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I've been cleansed!




Okay, I am going to presume that my first post was removed because of my test of which other various slurs would be automatically filtered. At least I hope that's what it was. I hope it wasn't my contention that the censoring of the word "nigger," and (apparently) none others, smacks of racism itself. Racism of the most condencending kind. I will ask the same question:

Why does CM think that black people are to weak to live in freeedom - so weak that they must be protected from the thoughts of others - but that Asians or homosexuals (amongst others) are not?

Here is a great clip of Hal Holbrok as Mark Twain with a reading from Huckleberry Finn. The part about Huckleberry Finn occurs near the end and concludes in this part.

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/7/2011 7:10:11 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
Okay, I am going to presume that my first post was removed because of my test of which other various slurs would be automatically filtered. At least I hope that's what it was. I hope it wasn't my contention that the censoring of the word "nigger," and (apparently) none others, smacks of racism itself. Racism of the most condencending kind. I will ask the same question:

Why does CM think that black people are to weak to live in freeedom - so weak that they must be protected from the thoughts of others - but that Asians or homosexuals (amongst others) are not?

I have to say that a) I didn't realise that CM's forum editor did that and that b) yes I agree with you, and further it concerns me.

Is there some sort of legal status attached to the word in the US that would make life difficult for CM if it were propagated? Just trying to work out why they selected that word for censoring and not a whole host of others.

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/7/2011 7:15:05 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
yet the long-lofty status of Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn has come under question in recent decades.


Can we re-write Tom Sawyer, so that he gets off'd in the end.  I always felt that he should be. 

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/7/2011 7:19:13 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
yet the long-lofty status of Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn has come under question in recent decades.


Can we re-write Tom Sawyer, so that he gets off'd in the end.  I always felt that he should be. 

:)

And no, we can't. For good or ill, that's how Twain wrote it, and that's the way it should stay. Sorry :)

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/7/2011 7:35:42 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Is there some sort of legal status attached to the word in the US that would make life difficult for CM if it were propagated? Just trying to work out why they selected that word for censoring and not a whole host of others.


Fear of lawsuits and/or negative publicity is the only reasons I can think of. I mean, they're already run a site for "sexual perverts," the last thing they need is to be tagged as racists as well. I've not seen CM mentioned in the mainstream press. It is, in other words, "under the radar" of "normal" and "decent" society. All that needs to happen, however, is a slow news day in combination with some holier than thou, anal retentive, fascist fucktard for some news organization (my guess would be Fox News but any one of them could do it) to seek ratings by exposing "the dark underside of the internet where perverted sadists try to lure your children into a life a debauchery." Bill O'Reilly salivates at the notion of exposing such "dangers to our children," and he's not the only one. Adding (the perception of) racism to that mix would only bring Jesse Jackson and other race mongers into it. If things got carried away enough it wouldn't be long before some in Congress would seek to regulate CM (and similar sites) out of existence by introducing the "Protect Our Children's Innocence Act," or some other such nonsense. So I can't say I really blame CM... but it still irks me.


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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/7/2011 7:42:11 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

:)

And no, we can't. For good or ill, that's how Twain wrote it, and that's the way it should stay. Sorry :)


Drat.

Many years ago I had a children's version of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, but I do not remember if the text was changed.  One side was a picture and caption and the other side was text.  I do recall that they left in the scene where Hyde jumps up and down on a little girl.  Which one would think is pretty screwed up in
a children's book. 

But. . . if you really look at fairy tales and Disney movies, they are not all that innocent.  I think that many adults create a romanticized version of childhood in their head. 

Sanitizing the world for children does not work.  However, discussion and leading by example does.  Whitewashing may work for a fence, not literature. 

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/7/2011 8:06:15 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
So I can't say I really blame CM... but it still irks me.

Me too. Which is odd, really.

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/7/2011 8:10:50 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
But. . . if you really look at fairy tales and Disney movies, they are not all that innocent.  I think that many adults create a romanticized version of childhood in their head. 

Sanitizing the world for children does not work.  However, discussion and leading by example does.  Whitewashing may work for a fence, not literature. 



The thing is, this "wrap them in cotton wool so they don't grow up damaged" thing is a relatively modern construct; you mention Dr. J & Mr. H - some of the "fairy stories" they used to tell to kids, and allow them to read, were pretty strong stuff. I don't recall anyone thinking that our forefathers (and mothers!) grew up to be a bunch of snivelling wimps; quite the reverse.

It's all a bunch of tree-hugging hippy crap, and I for one say nay, nay and thrice nay. Read the book as it was published, or fuck off and stick with "Mr Fwuffy Has a Fwuffy Time With Bunnies".

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/7/2011 8:34:23 AM   
LinnaeaBorealis


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I taught myself how to read at the age of 3. At that time, the libraries had a policy whereby children were only allowed to check out "age-appropriate" books. Because I was more advanced in reading, my mother got me special dispensation so that I was allowed to check out books that would actually hold my interest. When I was in early elementary school, I used to read the books in my parents' personal library. I don't remember my reading being censored by them. While I was in junior high school, a book called The Bramble Bush was published & subsequently banned in Boston. Those of you nearer my age should get a chuckle out of that phrase. Anyway, I got hold of a copy & read it cover to cover. Perhaps I was too young to really understand it, but I never did get why anyone would think it was inappropriate.

When I was in high school, Cannery Row was required reading. I remember being shocked when my father said that he didn't approve of Steinbeck's novels because he wrote "dirty books". If you knew my father, you would understand how truly shocking that statement was. However, he didn't go to the school or the school board & demand that Steinbeck be taken off the required reading lists. I was allowed to read it & come to my own conclusions.

The literature for young children at that time included some horrifying fairy tales, the stuff of nightmares. But I didn't grow up to be a violent person because of having been exposed to fictional violence in early childhood. Nor did I become immune to the violence in reality. I know that I am different from most in a lot of ways, but I don't think that I was that different in my reaction to the books that I read. I think that people give children too little credit. If one is never exposed to certain things, one will never begin to understand what is right or wrong about those things.

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/7/2011 8:44:01 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LinnaeaBorealis
When I was in high school, Cannery Row was required reading. I remember being shocked when my father said that he didn't approve of Steinbeck's novels because he wrote "dirty books". If you knew my father, you would understand how truly shocking that statement was. However, he didn't go to the school or the school board & demand that Steinbeck be taken off the required reading lists. I was allowed to read it & come to my own conclusions.


Sounds like decent parenting to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LinnaeaBorealis
The literature for young children at that time included some horrifying fairy tales, the stuff of nightmares. But I didn't grow up to be a violent person because of having been exposed to fictional violence in early childhood. Nor did I become immune to the violence in reality. I know that I am different from most in a lot of ways, but I don't think that I was that different in my reaction to the books that I read. I think that people give children too little credit. If one is never exposed to certain things, one will never begin to understand what is right or wrong about those things.

I couldn't agree more if you paid me to, in cash :)


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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/7/2011 9:56:31 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue




The thing is, this "wrap them in cotton wool so they don't grow up damaged" thing is a relatively modern construct; you mention Dr. J & Mr. H - some of the "fairy stories" they used to tell to kids, and allow them to read, were pretty strong stuff. I don't recall anyone thinking that our forefathers (and mothers!) grew up to be a bunch of snivelling wimps; quite the reverse.

It's all a bunch of tree-hugging hippy crap, and I for one say nay, nay and thrice nay. Read the book as it was published, or fuck off and stick with "Mr Fwuffy Has a Fwuffy Time With Bunnies".



Between your response and Linnea's, I am reminded that as a child (about ten, I think) I was allowed to read The Clan of the Cave Bear, however I was not allowed to watch the video of it that my  parents rented. 

My parents always had a heck of a time getting me enough books. 

When I broke my ankle in the 8th grade, my dad made a special trip to the library to get me some books.  A couple of them were V.C. Andrews.  Which has some rather adult themes in it. 

I think that my parents figured that I was intelligent to make sense of what I was reading or I would ask about it. 

Akin to the term "nigger" in Huck Finn is the song, "Bad Bad Leroy Brown," by Jim Croce.  I was allowed to say "damn" if I was singing the song.  It was not allowed any other time.  Why would it be more difficult to explain to a child that, "Yes they use that term in the book and this is why.  However you may not use it unless you are quoting from the book." 

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/7/2011 10:16:36 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
I think that my parents figured that I was intelligent to make sense of what I was reading or I would ask about it. 

You have raised a significant, but related, point – your parents exercised judgement.

Part of the PC-derived charge towards universal "niceness"* is, I've felt for some time, driven by the concept that, for whatever reason, parents are nowadays either unwilling to parent, or (paradoxically), if they are, are incapable of doing so in such a manner as reaches whatever standards the nebulous “they” consider correct. I do not consider that to be right, either in concept, or actuality.

Take, say, an 8 year-old; this 8 Y/O may well be perfectly capable of understanding, dealing with, and even appreciating, more challenging concepts, whereas that one over there may not. By attempting to reduce all “children” (or indeed “adults”, but let’s stick with kids for the moment) to a universal “standard”, society is removing or stifling individualism and creativity, while ensuring that what we end up with is a homogenised product as an output.

I don't consider that to be either desirable, or useful to society at large. Maybe we end up with one fewer serial killer per hundred million people, but if the trade-off is fewer Van Goghs, or Charlie Parkers, or Damien Hirsts, then I think society ends up being significantly worse off.

*which this topic, by dint of what the publishers are trying to do, falls loosely into.

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