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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/15/2011 11:17:15 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl!
But, no one attacked the great Sam Harris.

That's a lie, you did so right here:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
My thoughts about Harris... ahem... are not kind. He is arrogant, and thats the nicest thing i can say about him. I dont put too much stock into someone who feels the need to be superior by way of telling others how inferior they are.

You blooming idiot. That was in response to the post anthrosub posted to me....

quote:

While often defined as an atheist, Harris asserts that the term is not necessary. His position is that "atheism" is not a worldview or a philosophy, but the "destruction of bad ideas." He states that religion is especially rife with bad ideas, calling it "one of the most perverse misuses of intelligence we have ever devised." He compares modern religious beliefs to the myths of the Ancient Greeks, which were once accepted as fact but which are obsolete today. In a January 2007 interview with PBS, Harris said, "We don't have a word for not believing in Zeus, which is to say we are all atheists in respect to Zeus. And we don't have a word for not being an astrologer." He goes on to say that the term will be retired only when "we all just achieve a level of intellectual honesty where we are no longer going to pretend to be certain about things we are not certain about."

As I said before, you responded by attacking the person instead of the validity of the position. When it comes to intellectually honest discussions that's not ok.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/15/2011 11:24:14 PM

tazzygirl

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I attacked his statement. You took it to mean i attacked the man. Arrogance is a trait that can be perceived through the written word. So can hero-worship.

quote:

1. Do not overstate the power of your argument. One’s sense of conviction should be in proportion to the level of clear evidence assessable by most. If someone portrays their opponents as being either stupid or dishonest for disagreeing, intellectual dishonesty is probably in play. Intellectual honesty is most often associated with humility, not arrogance.

Per Harris' statement....

He states that religion is especially rife with bad ideas, calling it "one of the most perverse misuses of intelligence we have ever devised."

He goes on to say that the term will be retired only when "we all just achieve a level of intellectual honesty where we are no longer going to pretend to be certain about things we are not certain about."

quote:

2. Show a willingness to publicly acknowledge that reasonable alternative viewpoints exist. The alternative views do not have to be treated as equally valid or powerful, but rarely is it the case that one and only one viewpoint has a complete monopoly on reason and evidence.

Show me where he is open, utilizing the statement above, to any viewpoint but his own.

These are the first two signs of using intellectual honesty. Something Harris seems to demand in his statement, yet cannot seem to follow himself.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/16/2011 12:31:23 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Non-theism inherently exists, we are all born that way.

And you know this how? Interviewed a lot of infants, have you?

Actually, the relationship of a young and developing being to the loving environment and persons of its parents is a common analogy for a devotional theistic relationship. That is why Gods and Goddesses are so commonly referred to as Father and Mother, and why trust likened unto a child's is a component of the devotional relationship. We enter into life primed to trust the world and the more powerful beings upon whose love we depend, which is a characteristically theistic mode of being.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/16/2011 1:30:41 AM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/16/2011 3:07:09 AM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
At a conceptual level, this relationship is also one of dependency. Both -isms rely on each other for their meaning (or meaninglessness if you prefer). The relationship between theism and non-theism can be seen as like that of a fish to water - unable to breath anywhere else.

Could you explain and support this position.

Certainly non-theism as a word relies on theism for it's definition. However non-theism doesn't actually rely on the existence of theism. If theism had never been invented, non-theism would get along just fine, we'd all be practitioners of it.

Thanks for asking.

Pairs of 'opposites' can often be seen or considered much more productively as 'mutually dependent'.

When we name something we are automatically marking it out as different from everything else .. from everything it is not. If we consider the possibility of deity, then believing in the existence of deities (theism) is marked out as different to everything it is not, ie. not believing in the existence of deities (non-theism). Conceptualising one automatically creates the possibility of, conceptualises the other. Equally we cannot conceive of one without automatically conceiving of the other - whether this is stated or intended or not. It is inherent in the act of naming, of specifying, it is one way meaning is created.*

So I would suggest that if theism had never been invented, then non-theism would never have been invented either. There would be no reason for anyone to ever conceive of it. Theism and non-theism share more than a word, the exist in, they inhabit the same conceptual space, share the same oxygen.

So, from where I sit, it's valid to assert that theism and non-theism exist in a relationship of mutual dependency.

*This argument is a basic tenet in Post-Structural Linguistics if you feel like checking it out more thoroughly. I hope I did it justice, I find it quite an interesting perspective.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/16/2011 3:23:41 AM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/17/2011 7:34:29 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Theism isn't necessary, but the devotional path to union is as valid as any other.

Union with what? How is it just as valid?

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/17/2011 8:29:25 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
But, no one attacked the great Sam Harris.

You just keep lying, these are your personal attacks against Sam Harris:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
My thoughts about Harris... ahem... are not kind. He is arrogant, and thats the nicest thing i can say about him. I dont put too much stock into someone who feels the need to be superior by way of telling others how inferior they are.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
How do you see Harris fitting into that definition?

I dont.

Then you attack wittynamehere for agreeing with Harris:

quote:

ORIGINAL: wittynamehere
Except that you don't have to look far to see that he's right - religion is perverse, is a misuse of intellect, and contains bad ideas. The quote is a really good one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
When you can post using something besides your sock puppet names, then I will address your posts.

Then you turned your insults and personal attacks on me:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Amazingly it took you two days to come up with that pathetic argument. As it typically does when you are caught with your pants down around your ankles.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Do you even have an original thought process? Something that isnt repeated by someone else?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Yeah, Big man of steel, huh.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Waaaa waaaa waaa. Damn, can you cry anymore?

Then it's back to attacking Harris:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I still think he is an egomaniac, self-centered and an all around asshole who doesnt know what the fuck he is talking about.

Then attacking me again:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
You blooming idiot.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/17/2011 8:48:38 PM

GotSteel

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So you see this quote by Sam Harris, someone who by your own admission you'd never heard of. All you have to go on is this one quote, nothing else about the man not even the context the quote was in, but he's disagreeing with your position and you see fit to engage in attack after attack against him personally and against anyone who defends him. According to your own statement aren't those attacks a sign that you are being intellectually dishonest?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
1. Do not overstate the power of your argument. One’s sense of conviction should be in proportion to the level of clear evidence assessable by most. If someone portrays their opponents as being either stupid or dishonest for disagreeing, intellectual dishonesty is probably in play. Intellectual honesty is most often associated with humility, not arrogance.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/17/2011 11:07:49 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

So you see this quote by Sam Harris, someone who by your own admission you'd never heard of. All you have to go on is this one quote, nothing else about the man not even the context the quote was in, but he's disagreeing with your position and you see fit to engage in attack after attack against him personally and against anyone who defends him. According to your own statement aren't those attacks a sign that you are being intellectually dishonest?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
1. Do not overstate the power of your argument. One’s sense of conviction should be in proportion to the level of clear evidence assessable by most. If someone portrays their opponents as being either stupid or dishonest for disagreeing, intellectual dishonesty is probably in play. Intellectual honesty is most often associated with humility, not arrogance.

You are an idiot.

There was no attack against witty... who is someone we all know and is using a sock puppet name. Which is why i did not respond to that one, as i stated why i would not respond in the post. How you see that as an attack is beyond me.

As far as Sam Harris.... ahem... he wrote something that is extreme arrogant. And i stated such. If thats an attack in your eyes, so be it. Personally, i think you are crying over spilled milk... and you simply cannot admit when you are wrong.

Btw, calling someone a liar, according to your post, is also an attack.. which you have done on more than one occassion.

I do understand how you may have the hots for Sam Harris... hey, to each their own. But dont expect everyone to agree with him... or you... cus it aint gonna happen.

Now, frankly, you took what was turning into an enjoyable, intelligent debate and managed to derail it with your incessant whining once again. We all know you are hard core atheist, unable to believe that people who dont think like you are intelligent. Again, i could care less.

But your whining about this on and on and on is pretty much showing what a little boy you truly are.

For example... if you were to say you were the greatest man on earth... i would call that comment arrogant... hense, you are arrogant.

If i were to say i was the prettiest woman on earth, im sure you would say the same about me.

For anyone to insist that we are "pretending", when he has no proof anyone is "pretending" is arrogant as well... and ill even go further and use your words

He is a liar.

quote:

That's a lie, you did so right here:

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
My thoughts about Harris... ahem... are not kind. He is arrogant, and thats the nicest thing i can say about him. I dont put too much stock into someone who feels the need to be superior by way of telling others how inferior they are.

Thats not an attack, its an opinion based upon his words. IF you dont like what i said, tough.... this contant attack of ME by YOU wont change my mind. But i am getting pretty tired of this.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 1/17/2011 11:09:29 PM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/18/2011 12:09:47 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Actually, the relationship of a new and developing being to the loving environment and persons of its parents is a common analogy for a devotional theistic relationship.

Yes, an analogy, i.e. not actually theism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
That is why Gods and Goddesses are so commonly referred to as Father and Mother, and why trust likened unto a child's is a component of the devotional relationship.

"likened unto" i.e. not actually theism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
We enter into life primed to trust the world and the more powerful beings upon whose love we depend, which is a characteristically theistic mode of being.

Still not theism. I’d call that something more along the lines of a characteristically infant mode of being. Even though you find the comparison to theism figuratively meaningful that doesn’t make that “mode of being” literally theism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
And you know this how? Interviewed a lot of infants, have you?

There are cognitive prerequisites necessary for theism. One such necessity is object permanence, the idea that things that one can't see still exist. Without object permanence, God would have to be physically standing within a child's field of vision for that child to be a theist. Said child would go back to being a non-theist as soon as God walked out of their field of vision.

Some research finds that infants as young as 3.5 months posses some concept of object permanence, other research finds that children around a year old are still learning the concept. Whatever the exact age it's a learned concept and as such even if a child too young to posses object permanence were physically playing peek-a-boo with a god, the game would go: non-theist, theist, non-theist, theist, non-theist...

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/18/2011 12:30:41 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
You are an idiot.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Actually, when in a debate of any kind, using words like "idiot" and "moron" tends to show me the intelligence of the person utilizing those words.

If you have to resort to attacking the poster with such mundane words, then you have already lost the war, imho.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3308862/mpage_1/key_idiot/tm.htm#3308931

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 1/18/2011 12:32:07 AM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/18/2011 12:43:44 AM

Kirata

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I don't think it is fair of you to call Sam Harris arrogant, tazzy, or a liar either. I don't think you've given sufficient consideration to what that gentleman has to say. For example:

Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them.

To Harris, it's perfectly reasonable (and "may even be ethical," but who cares?) to murder someone who hasn't done anything yet simply because of his beliefs.

This may seem an extraordinary claim, but it merely enunciates an ordinary fact about the world in which we live. Certain beliefs place their adherents beyond the reach of every peaceful means of persuasion, while inspiring them to commit acts of extraordinary violence against others. There is, in fact, no talking to some people. If they cannot be captured, and they often cannot, otherwise tolerant people may be justified in killing them in self-defense.

Interesting concept, eh? Pre-emptive murder as "self-defense." But if you doubt how serious he is...

It should be of particular concern to us that the beliefs of Muslims pose a special problem for nuclear deterrence. There is little possibility of our having a cold war with an Islamist regime armed with long-range nuclear weapons... In such a situation, the only thing likely to ensure our survival may be a nuclear first strike of our own. Needless to say, this would be an unthinkable crime -- as it would kill tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day -- but it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe.

This is a man who is capable of contemplating the wholesale mass murder of tens of millions of people -- not in a war, mind you, not in response to an attack, but solely because of their beliefs -- simply as a practical matter of "self defense."

So I'm afraid I must disagree with calling him arrogant, tazzy. And I don't think he's lying, either.

Would you settle for calling him a monster?

K.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/18/2011 1:46:14 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

There are cognitive prerequisites necessary for theism. One such necessity is object permanence...

Firstly, you theologically ignorant twit, God is not an "object." Secondly, much as I am pleased to learn that you stayed awake through Psych 101, not even the infant's inability to comprended its parent as a separate being in its own right, nevermind constancy, prevents the formation of a bonded relationship that survives absence.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/18/2011 2:47:49 AM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/18/2011 4:16:57 AM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Firstly, you theologically ignorant twit, God is not an "object." Secondly, much as I am pleased to learn that you stayed awake through Psych 101, not even the infant's inability to comprended its parent as a separate being in its own right, nevermind constancy, prevents the formation of a bonded relationship that survives absence.

K.

a bonded relationship ....? a devotional relationship ....?
Now this is something I find a little odd. Why is it that most human relationships with a theistic figure seem to be conceived in terms of, and centred around power?

While it's true that many perspectives (eg post-modernist) tend to see power as a dominant presence and determinant in human relationships and behaviours, to me, a relationship centred around power seems a simplistic, limiting and anthropomorphic way to characterise relationships between humans and a deity. I know that it sounds a bit like heresy on a BDSM site (teehee!), but even a close relationship between a pet and its human friend/owner is far more complex and dynamic than that.

And what's in the relationship for the deity? If a deity doesn't seek reciprocation in a relationship, then the basis of most major theisms is destroyed. Presumably they seek something more than a mere ego/power trip. Is it possible that this is projection on a cosmic scale?

Are we obliged to conceive of something beyond only in human terms? Is this the only way we can conceive of relations between humans and something that might be on the far side of a singularity?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/18/2011 4:22:07 AM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/18/2011 6:01:20 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

Would you settle for calling him a monster?

K.

In this instance, Master Kirata, I defer to your judgement.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/18/2011 8:23:31 AM

GotSteel

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Where did you get those quotes and why didn't you cite your source? Are you even quoting Harris or are you quoting an out of context hack job done by someone else?

Certainly if he's advocating the "the wholesale mass murder of tens of millions of people...solely because of their beliefs" that's reprehensible, but is he actually doing that?

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/18/2011 11:55:59 AM

Kirata

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I'm confused so I may be mistaken, but you seem to be equating a devotional relationship with a power-centered one? If that's the case, I'm not sure how you got there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

If a deity doesn't seek reciprocation in a relationship, then the basis of most major theisms is destroyed.

Again I'm confused. I would think that if deity needed reciprocation, most major theisms would be destroyed. How do you get to this?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

And what's in the relationship for the deity? ...Are we obliged to conceive of something beyond only in human terms?

I put those sentences together because, isn't the first question you ask an example of the second?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Is it possible that this is projection on a cosmic scale?

Yes, of course. Projection causes an aspect of the self to appear to be "outside".

K.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/18/2011 12:34:40 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Where did you get those quotes and why didn't you cite your source? Are you even quoting Harris or are you quoting an out of context hack job done by someone else?

They can be found online at samharris.org where he complains about the "malicious commentary" they have drawn and clarifies their perfect reasonableness.

K.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/18/2011 2:08:41 PM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
You are an idiot.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Actually, when in a debate of any kind, using words like "idiot" and "moron" tends to show me the intelligence of the person utilizing those words.

If you have to resort to attacking the poster with such mundane words, then you have already lost the war, imho.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3308862/mpage_1/key_idiot/tm.htm#3308931

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/18/2011 2:33:07 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Actually, when in a debate of any kind, using words like "idiot"...

The question is, does the context in which she said it deserve to be called a "debate".

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/18/2011 3:02:08 PM

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I think the extreme Harris is alluding to should not be taken as advocacy per se but rather a, "it may come to this" situation. In other words, if an Islamic nation with a government populated by extremists had possession of an atomic bomb and the means to deliver it...it may be necessary for another nation such as the United States to pre-emptively destroy said country. In short, they would be forcing "our" hand. What it would actually take for it to come to that remains to be seen and hopefully we never will.

In other news, I read today that the new Governor of Alabama made a speech in a Baptist church shortly after being sworn in.

"(CNN) – Alabama Republican Gov. Robert Bentley is kicking off his first term in office with a bit of controversy, telling a church audience Monday that he only considers Christians to be his "brothers and sisters."

"Now I will have to say that, if we don't have the same daddy, we're not brothers and sisters," he told parishioners at a Baptist church in Montgomery Monday shortly after being sworn in. "So anybody here today who has not accepted Jesus Christ as their savior, I'm telling you, you're not my brother and you're not my sister, and I want to be your brother."

"There may be some people here today who do not have living within them the Holy Spirit," Bentley also said, according to the Birmingham News. "But if you have been adopted in God's family like I have, and like you have if you're a Christian and if you're saved, and the Holy Spirit lives within you just like the Holy Spirit lives within me, then you know what that makes? It makes you and me brothers. And it makes you and me brother and sister."

Rebekah Caldwell Mason, Bentley's communications director, was not immediately available for comment but told the Birmingham News that Bentley "is the governor of all the people, Christians, non-Christians alike."

Bentley also celebrated the life of Martin Luther King, Jr. in his speech and said he will govern in accordance with King's teachings.

'I was elected as a Republican candidate. But once I became governor ... I became the governor of all the people. I intend to live up to that. I am color blind," Bentley also said."

What he means and how each individual interprets it is the problem Harris is trying to make a point over. It's what irks me about religion in general. As weapons of mass destruction (or better yet, the knowledge to make them) proliferate, we pass into an age where misinterpretation becomes increasingly dangerous. Nuking a country is a monstrous proposal but does anyone actually believe there would necessarily be time to connect with the offending nation, build bridges, establish trust, and reshape their thinking before those in power press the button? Do you want to rely on that as the solution? Personally I think the nuke approach would be the last, last resort. I realize the responsibility falls equally on our shoulders too (meaning we too would need to be stable enough to not use the nuke unless it was absolutely necessary). But that's the rub with nukes and why the best solution so far as they exist has been MAD as a deterent. But with Islamists blowing themselves up with such disregard for anyone...it changes the formula.

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