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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/23/2011 12:02:58 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Enigma108

The critic makes good observations, some I agree with, but I don't think her books should be dismissed. My take on it (as someone who is already educated in world religions and spiritual practices) is that whatever flaws Armstrong's book might have (only to be expected considering what a huge undertaking it was) it still is a monumental work that can help anyone (who can wade through it) to see the big picture about religion(s) more clearly.

The key element is Transcendence itself. Without this, all is merely gossip and as useful as a well (as the Gita says) in a place surrounded by water. It's obvious that Armstrong has not experienced Transcendence but for gaining a historical perspective, and for (if the reader can forgive whatever flaws he or she might presume to find) I think it's the best thing that available to the casual reader.

Satara


Actually the critic, Eric MacDonald - an ex-Anglican preacher of thirty years experience - considers Armstrong's historical perspective to be biased.  I'm not in position to judge because I'm no historian of religious traditions.  

I do, though, know something of politics, the history of the twentieth century and current affairs.  I'm aware of the great, large-scale social experiments that have been tried on the basis of some appeal or another to some putatively non-, pre- or super- rational function in the human mind (or human spirit, heart, whatever else).  These grand revolts against reason have been calamitous.  They've led to the misery and deaths of millions of people. 

Your 'Transcendance' is just 'transcendance', with a small 't', for me.  (Sorry, but I always go on guard when I sense that a term has been injected with some added value by means of rhetorical devices like capitalising or, for example, using pseudo-biblical lingo such as 'We should liken ourselves unto children' instead of plain, 'we should be more like kids'. )  Transcendance is just another idea, to be slotted amongst all the other competing ideas, and tested for internal coherence and practicability.  For me, it's an idea that I'd treat with a bucket full of caution, for the aforementioned reasons, amongst many others.  

Whatever Armstrong's expertise is, it clearly isn't in those matters of politics and current affairs.  She needs to learn about those worlds and engage with the people who live in them.  Most of all she needs firstly, to address the concerns of those people who, despite all its failings and well-documented disasters, still consider reason to be the best thing that humans have ever invented; secondly, to answer those who flag up the dangers of taking any one of the many paths of anti-reason that have been spawned, or revamped, in recent times. 

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/23/2011 12:17:40 PM   
Enigma108


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Status: offline 		Kirata:
quote:

He states that the normal infant, with its capacity for representation of experiences with important others always available to him in time of need, has an inborn ability to adjust to the requirement for either independence or interdependence


Somewhere I read that in the US, we immediately put infants into their own room, whereas in many countries, the baby is held constantly by either parents or extended family, such as in Japan, where the child may sleep with the parents until age 6 or 7. Some people in other countries think that it is abusive to separate the child so early in life. But look at the difference in the way adults of those countries think and behave--in Japan, there is more of a cooperative group consciousness, and in the US there is an almost fanatical focus on being an individual, someone strong alone. Just consider the archetypal heros we have--Shane, Clint Eastwood characters, Hans Solo, the maverick, etc. As Americans, we almost think it is our responsibility to NOT be cooperative, to even disrespect those who are, to call them "one of the crowd", the "sheeple", etc. My observation is that this attitude of lone independence causes us to be very creative, it is disastrous for social interaction.

Satara

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/23/2011 12:36:01 PM   
Enigma108


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Status: offline 		Peonforher
quote:

Transcendance is just another idea, to be slotted amongst all the other competing ideas, and tested for internal coherence and practicability. 



Transcendence is only an idea until it is directly experienced, and the only way someone who has not experienced Transcendence can deal with it is as an intellectual concept. Consciousness as a field is still too new to have much to work with intellectually (among philosophers it's called the "hard problem" because, how can one examine nothingness? ) In the meantime it's smart,I think, to be skeptical, to, as other wise people have said, believe nothing that one does not experience for oneself. In leaves of Grass, for instance, Whitman said, and I ( badly) paraphrase, "You shall not hear second hand or third hand but experience directly for yourself"

But here is what I think is valuable to think about, that when one lays out all the ideas the world has to offer, what is it that they all have in common? Lao Tsu, Christ, Mohamed, the great poets, etc. etc. etc. What is that thread that runs though them, said in different ways? That is TRanscendence, and that is what can be found inside you and all of us. "You shall look here and look there, but lo! the Kingdom of Heaven is within you." I agree with you that religions should be dismissed as the end all and be all, for they all have it wrong (except at the deepest root), and that the God of any name should be dismissed, for the only truth is what can be found at our own deepest root, and that is Transcendence. Call it, if you will, who you are at the ground state, beyond all beliefs. The point that I'm trying to make is that it's probably better to have an open mind rather than a firm dismissal of other's ideas. I mistrust anyone who has strong beliefs, either pro or con, for I see them as being in a stuck place.

Satara

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/23/2011 1:14:14 PM   
anthrosub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

So you cannot answer my question, but, instead, direct me to a link that will? I wanted your answer. But, alas, its not to be. Sort of what i expected though.


I gave you my answer in post #301. But you rejected it.

I also just revisited your posts. You may want to think about this question which you asked me earlier before pressing further.

"Whose opinion is correct?"

< Message edited by anthrosub -- 1/23/2011 1:18:52 PM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/23/2011 1:14:41 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Enigma108
Transcendence is only an idea until it is directly experienced, and the only way someone who has not experienced Transcendence can deal with it is as an intellectual concept.


If you mean by 'transcendence' an experience and a fitting of that experience into reason rather than 'promoting of it above reason', then, yes, fine.  If not, then we have a dead end because, for all the reasons stated in my last post, I'm not going to demote reason and I wouldn't advise anyone else to, either.  It's requires burning a bridge that I think it's much too risky to burn.

quote:

But here is what I think is valuable to think about, that when one lays out all the ideas the world has to offer, what is it that they all have in common? Lao Tsu, Christ, Mohamed, the great poets, etc. etc. etc. What is that thread that runs though them, said in different ways? .


I'm sorry, but that, to me, isn't a list of great thinkers.  It's a list of poets, plus a few well-known mystics (a couple of whom I've read, albeit just a little).  Not a mention of any post-Enlightenment western historian, philosopher, social thinker, scientist . . . . Do you begin to see why this can't speak to me?  Apart from anything else, it seems a monumentally tragic waste.

quote:

 The point that I'm trying to make is that it's probably better to have an open mind rather than a firm dismissal of other's ideas. I mistrust anyone who has strong beliefs, either pro or con, for I see them as being in a stuck place.


True, it is better to have an open mind.  But as far as I can see from history, the most open sorts of minds, and the least 'stuck-ness', occurred in the West, and after the Enlightenment.  The evidence for that, for me, is in the speed, number and size of changes that occurred thereafter, versus the static nature of those societies that (have) most strongly held to the sorts of traditions in which, for instance, Christ or Mohamed were (are) still regarded as the preeminent minds, the 'holders of the greatest truths'.  That's one major reason why I put more faith in the Enlightenment tradition and all the many, many colossal thinkers it's produced.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 1/23/2011 1:16:49 PM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/23/2011 1:54:24 PM   
Enigma108


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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Enigma108
Transcendence is only an idea until it is directly experienced, and the only way someone who has not experienced Transcendence can deal with it is as an intellectual concept.


If you mean by 'transcendence' an experience and a fitting of that experience into reason rather than 'promoting of it above reason', then, yes, fine.  If not, then we have a dead end because, for all the reasons stated in my last post, I'm not going to demote reason and I wouldn't advise anyone else to, either.  It's requires burning a bridge that I think it's much too risky to burn.



How can one have reason in nothingness? Rosseau, I think it was, said one of my favorite sayings, that "Reason is a whore...it will lie with anything." Reason is not high enough to be Truth.



"...Lao Tsu, Christ, Mohamed, the great poets, etc. etc. etc. What is that thread that runs though them, said in different ways? .


I'm sorry, but that, to me, isn't a list of great thinkers. It's a list of poets, plus a few well-known mystics (a couple of whom I've read, albeit just a little). Not a mention of any post-Enlightenment western historian, philosopher, social thinker, scientist . . . . Do you begin to see why this can't speak to me?"

The list was just a casual run off the top of my head, and in any case, they were not famed for their "thinking", they were famed as experiencers of Reality. You appear to be a "thinker"--someone who weighs and measures the pros and cons, and ideas versus idea, and correct and incorrect. But I am talking about, as Rumi said, "out beyond right doing and wrong doing, there is a field. I'll meet you there." As long as you are in the business of weights and measures, you are in the field of duality and duality can never be Truth, because to be True, it has to contain both.

I do see why this can't speak to you, because your way (and I'm not demeaning your way, but only trying to point out that it's limited) pits the intellect against Reality, it says that to be True, it has to be only this or that, and better than others, whereas, Reality is all-encompassing and open to direct experience. It simply IS. After one experiences the IS, then it can be explained, but once it is explained, then it is no longer Truth but an intellectual idea. I love the intellect and the world of ideas so I am not dissing you, but only pointing out that what is really Truth is beyond the intellect. Once the state of Transcendence is experienced directly, then the world of ideas falls into place. Until then, it is all conjecture.

Satara

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/23/2011 1:57:20 PM   
Enigma108


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Status: offline 		Okay, so I can't figure out how to do the quote in the box thing. Can anyone enlighten me?

Satara

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/23/2011 2:01:14 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Enigma108

Okay, so I can't figure out how to do the quote in the box thing. Can anyone enlighten me?

Satara

Highlight what you want and click Reply.

Or.....type quote inside brackets [] and end with /quote inside brackets.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/23/2011 3:49:43 PM   
Kirata


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A lot of what we once thought we knew about the (in)capacities of newborns has been shown to be a consequence of traumatic birthing. Procedures that provide a quiet atmosphere, dimmed lighting, warmth, constant contact with the mother, and which delay severing the umbilical cord until after the natural transition to air breathing, have forced us to recognize that the capabilities of newborns are absolutely amazing.

K.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/23/2011 4:55:19 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
But when you call the intelligence of a person into question, you may as well expect a few ruffled feathers... or possibly a whole pillowcase of them exploding. Why is it that religion cannot be a topic of discussion without berating or belittling?

Do you honestly believe those who disagree with you are intellectually inferior?

Unfortunately I've been out more than in this thread lately. Apparently I've missed something, who besides yourself has been calling those they disagree with intellectually inferior?

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/23/2011 5:54:50 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Enigma108
Reality is all-encompassing and open to direct experience. It simply IS. After one experiences the IS, then it can be explained, but once it is explained, then it is no longer Truth but an intellectual idea. I love the intellect and the world of ideas so I am not dissing you, but only pointing out that what is really Truth is beyond the intellect. Once the state of Transcendence is experienced directly, then the world of ideas falls into place. Until then, it is all conjecture.


Enigma,

No, I don't think that reality is necessarily open to direct experience, even if 'direct experience' were a possibility (and I'm a long way from sure that it is).  I think you're wrong on that. 

If you'd just inserted a few 'I think thats' or 'For mes' into your comment, and if you could have held back from putting a capital 'T' on the word 'truth' (as well as 'Transcendence, again), then you and I might have found some common ground on which we could discuss things.  For me, you have it entirely the wrong way round.  If the 'Truth' that you're talking about can't be looked at reasonably, then it remains conjecture.  Once the world of ideas has begun to be dealt with properly, then that other idea of 'transcendence' begins to fit into its proper place amongst them. 

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/23/2011 9:24:17 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
But when you call the intelligence of a person into question, you may as well expect a few ruffled feathers... or possibly a whole pillowcase of them exploding. Why is it that religion cannot be a topic of discussion without berating or belittling?

Do you honestly believe those who disagree with you are intellectually inferior?

Unfortunately I've been out more than in this thread lately. Apparently I've missed something, who besides yourself has been calling those they disagree with intellectually inferior?



1) your right, you dont know what is being talked about

2) no where have i called anyone intellectually inferior.

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/23/2011 9:27:37 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

So you cannot answer my question, but, instead, direct me to a link that will? I wanted your answer. But, alas, its not to be. Sort of what i expected though.


I gave you my answer in post #301. But you rejected it.

I also just revisited your posts. You may want to think about this question which you asked me earlier before pressing further.

"Whose opinion is correct?"


Post 301 is an avoidance. No where have you answered my question.

Now, i really dont like threats. I asked, you refused, then you tried to get around it by slapping up a video of an 80's band... which made no sense what so ever.

But dont state you answered my questions.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/23/2011 10:41:04 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Enigma108
Reality is all-encompassing and open to direct experience. It simply IS. After one experiences the IS, then it can be explained, but once it is explained, then it is no longer Truth but an intellectual idea. I love the intellect and the world of ideas so I am not dissing you, but only pointing out that what is really Truth is beyond the intellect. Once the state of Transcendence is experienced directly, then the world of ideas falls into place. Until then, it is all conjecture.


Enigma,

No, I don't think that reality is necessarily open to direct experience, even if 'direct experience' were a possibility (and I'm a long way from sure that it is).  I think you're wrong on that. 

If you'd just inserted a few 'I think thats' or 'For mes' into your comment, and if you could have held back from putting a capital 'T' on the word 'truth' (as well as 'Transcendence, again), then you and I might have found some common ground on which we could discuss things.  For me, you have it entirely the wrong way round.  If the 'Truth' that you're talking about can't be looked at reasonably, then it remains conjecture.  Once the world of ideas has begun to be dealt with properly, then that other idea of 'transcendence' begins to fit into its proper place amongst them. 


I tend to share the reservations expressed about capital T Transcendence and Truth, especially the latter. I share post-modernism's distaste for the slippery notion of capital T Truth.

What I understand being proposed here is that the inaccessibility of Truth through language and reason is somehow reversed through some practice/ idea of going 'beyond'. If it is suggested that whatever an individual finds 'beyond' might be a truth for them, then that's fine by me. But expanding, totalising it to ideas of Oneness, Truth are a bit of a jump for me. I can't say that I am very clear about how this unification of experience came about, how it can be asserted that all 'pure' experience 'beyond' is the same experience for everyone.

My limited experience of states 'beyond' is difficult for me to convey in language. Though I don't believe that it would be impossible for someone far more gifted in the descriptive writing area than I to convey the feelings experienced in such states.

One way of putting it is that in some of those experiences, the focus of my awareness was outside my body. I could experience a depth of awareness of people and things without consciously thinking of them. There was a sense of serenity, a certain sagacity, feelings of bliss, 'floating in a chora-like sea of love', a kind of intermingling of 'spirits', an intuitive understanding of things that far exceeded any direct experience or knowledge I possessed, a feeling that I can comprehend things in their entirety through multiple frameworks simultaneously. Afterwards, there can be a feeling of consummation, of exhilaration, of radiance that sometimes lasts for days. I hope I am conveying some sense of the experience through this very incomplete attempt at description.

If I practice yoga, I tend to feel these feelings alone. If I am playing with BDSM partners we tend to share some of those feelings sometimes.

So it's not very easy for me to attribute some of the qualities that others here do to those states of being. And it would be hard for me to agree that it is an experience of a pure 'nothingness', though I can understand what that description is trying to do - it is a state I approximate sometimes at yoga.

In this context, I can appreciate the suggestion "Don't interpret, just meditate'. But it's something I find very hard to do - overcoming years and years of social and intellectual training. I hope this rambling rave makes sense

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/23/2011 10:44:42 PM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/24/2011 5:42:26 AM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline 		I want to offer the following argument for the existence of God. It is a copy of something I wrote earlier in another thread. In a nutshell what I am saying is does not the existence of the Goddess imply the existence of God? and does not the existence of pussy evidence for the existence of a Goddess? It kind of all makes sense to me. There has got to be a Goddess out there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

This from a man who is only interested in pussy....


I never said that I was only interested in pussy. What I seek is a select few who possess what is known as a pussy. Admittedly, dick is a disqualifying factor. One must view a pussy holistically. A pussy has a mind. A pussy has a body whose sole use isn't sex by the way. Pussy even has a soul. Pussy also has needs. Pussy needs love and pussy needs praise. If she is willing to be more than a mere sex organ, more specifically a thing worthy of love, I am prepared to refer to her as a female. Typically, females do have a pussy.

Extensionally speaking one might see little difference, but intentionally there is a profound difference. I am willing to honor the intentional, according to what God intended, if she is so agreeable. In every female there is a goddess worthy of adoration, but to be this goddess she must walk so many feet behind me. If a different sort of relationship works for others, I'm fine with that. This is what I require.

For some reason many here seem to think that beauty and intelligence are qualities possessed only by dominant females.

I adore females for their goodness and dam them for their evil ways.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

I did a memorable scene with a female friend of mine once where I was walking along a Hawaiian beach with my friend tagging along in chains. I said, "It's such a wonderful day." and her response was, "It is Sir."


It is fun to engage in a little play. Power exchange can also be made a life style. Nothing wrong with that. It greases the wheel. There are also limits to what love can do for you. It's called getting practical or down to Earth. It's healthy to realize it. But is it healthy to pursue a puritanical agenda where there is no love at all where you care not what becomes of your lover? You don't always have to show love or be perceived as loving, but it seems to me at least a foregone conclusion that you must love.

If this should be a weakness by which you can be manipulated, it is as the creator intended. Lovers manipulate each other for happiness sake. A good witch is the best sort of lover a dominant man can have. A female skilled in the art of manipulation is to be admired. What matters is whether or not she has mingled her power with yours so that you are no longer a man, but a fearsome god, "Fear me my love for I am great." In silence the witch replies, "It is true for I have given you all that I am and I am not nothing."

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/24/2011 5:59:26 AM   
tweakabelle


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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		Tazzygirl how can you resist a man who quotes himself so eloquently?

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/24/2011 6:02:55 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Tazzygirl how can you resist a man who quotes himself so eloquently?


I'm not tazzy, but Pffft.... it's easy, promise.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/24/2011 6:29:41 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

I adore females for their goodness and dam them for their evil ways.

Would that be a reference to a chastity belt of some sort?

K.

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Profile   Post #: 338
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/24/2011 6:37:47 AM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Tazzygirl how can you resist a man who quotes himself so eloquently?


I am tempted to reply for you tempt me tweakabelle, and so I shall. I offer you a penetrating thought upon which you may contemplate: A true dominant male quotes himself out of necessity, for he has no equal.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/24/2011 6:44:39 AM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

I adore females for their goodness and dam them for their evil ways.

Would that be a reference to a chastity belt of some sort?

K.


Not necessarily though I suppose it could. My intended meaning was more general. I want her goodness to amaze me and express itself as a well with no bottom. Love is mysterious because it is such a well. Her wetness continues to flow in the absence of any truly rational explanation for it to do so.

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