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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/25/2011 5:52:40 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Piaget's research is considerably older than 1989 -- he died in 1980

Indeed, you made the assertion that I was the one who applied object permanence to people (I believe you used a term like misapplied). I was pointing out how you were wrong, object permanence was applied to people before I was even born. Then I gave a modern link showing that the application is still in use. Oh hey look at that, it even had a peek-a-boo example like I was talking about.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
-- and his primary interest was epistemological; his studies explored cognitive development, not interpersonal relationships. You cannot talk about interactions with physical objects and interactions with persons as if they were interchangeable.

But you can talk about physical persons and gods despite the interaction with one and the lack with the other as if they were interchangeable...I can't help but notice that you were silent when I called you on that one.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 381
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/25/2011 6:05:58 PM   
anthrosub


Posts: 843
Joined: 6/2/2004
Status: offline 		Hi tazzygirl,
This is a reply to your post (#361) minus the part about science since tweakabelle said it for me.

The fact that you went to PTL and thought it was a wonderful place (the idea of it anyway) tells me a lot about your taking so much exception with much that I have said in this thread. I'm not criticizing you for going there...I just mean it helps paint a clearer picture for me.

The problem of questioning intelligence...I may need others who have followed our exchange to chime in. It seems to me when I talk about the whole thing on a broad level, you take it as if I'm talking about you and are offended. If you do, then please realize everyone is not at the same intellectual level. That's not a derogatory statement...it's an accurate observation of humanity.

Regarding my use of the term "vast majority", you do realize don't you there are more people out there with less than or equal to a high school level education, let alone college (I'm talking western standards here). And please don't confuse intelligence with an education...they are not one and the same.

Also, to see a fault and point it out is without malice. Science and religion do have their place. My main criticism is that it's time for religion to step out of the circle of science in certain areas and also to point out where it is really intended as a guide and not a history book. As I said before, there are lots of people out there ill-equipped to see the difference.

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 382
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/25/2011 6:07:47 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

As we mature through generations, you would think the time would come when some housecleaning was in order. If not, things just get skewed more and more. That's another issue with leaving something open to interpretation. Like a scale for weighing things accurately...every once in while it needs to be recalibrated. I think there are some things we can pretty much agree could stand a little redress.

That's why I noted the shortcomings of our definition of "religion". It is not actually necessary to believe in God to follow a theistic practice. For the practice it is sufficient to conduct yourself as if God existed, as if a loving Father (generic: Mother/Father) existed, who was good, who cared about you, and about all life and the universe.

Now if you don't believe in God, you might ask what good can it do to "imagine" one. But what we imagine takes on a psychological reality, and for better or worse we are doing it all the time. So choose your poison. By the discipline of theistic practice a transpersonal self becomes instantiated which is outside the ego and capable of seeing that to which your ego is blind, not only your shortcomings but undiscovered capacities as well.

Think of just one simple observance, that of saying grace at meals. Why should you thank God for your food? It's there because you worked your ass off to put it there, not because of some "God". But while that is factual, it most certainly doesn't encompass the truth.

That food is there because there are jobs where you live and you are lucky enough to have one; it's there because people hundreds or thousands of miles away raise livestock and farm the land; it's there because other people work to bring it to where you can buy it; it's there because we are lucky enough to have a climate that allows those activities; it's there because our planet's magnetic field protects life on Earth from being irradiated to death by our star... and on and on. It is manifestly not there simply because of you.

Theism is a practice, and one which is no more dependent upon "belief" than meditation or yoga. It is a practice that, like meditation and yoga, is intended to change you, to change your relationship to life, to your fellows, and to the world.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/25/2011 6:39:00 PM >

(in reply to anthrosub)
Profile   Post #: 383
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/25/2011 6:45:06 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

There is also the question of scaling...

Well, ordered sequences occur in random series, so I would expect that order could emerge from chaos as well. But if the universe is fractal, as some have suggested, then chaos might not be quite so purely chaotic as we think. But hey, I guess we'll see.

In the meantime, at least we have herbs.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/25/2011 7:01:47 PM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 384
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/25/2011 7:43:37 PM   
SlaveOwner9


Posts: 50
Joined: 4/27/2010
Status: offline 		The Pope is a noob with no scientific knowledge whatsoever, so he can't prove what he said.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 385
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/25/2011 7:49:55 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline 		eihwaz,

I've had something in the back of my mind, but I couldn't find the link until now. I can understand order spontaneously arising from chaos purely as a matter of randomness, and then sinking back into chaos just as fast. But one of the ideas that I took away from this lecture is that when we observe the emergence of persistent continuing order, there is a rule operating. It's been quite a while since I watched it, and I could be mistaken. But since I think you might be someone who would find it interesting, here's the link:

Stephen Wolfram: The 2003 H. Paul Rockwood Memorial Lecture, UCSD Institute for Neural Computation

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/25/2011 8:04:38 PM >

(in reply to eihwaz)
Profile   Post #: 386
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/25/2011 7:57:22 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SlaveOwner9

The Pope is a noob with no scientific knowledge whatsoever, so he can't prove what he said.

Gee, thanks for sharing that. I mean, damn, who'd a thunk! But hey, it gets worse. Even if he had all the scientific knowledge in the world, he couldn't prove it. Anything else you'd like to add?

K.

(in reply to SlaveOwner9)
Profile   Post #: 387
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/25/2011 8:31:09 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

"This paragraph appears after a long discussion of the role that belief plays in governing human behavior, and it should be read in that context."

Where is this long discussion? I'd like to read it, can you point me to where on the website it is?

Actually, he very nicely sums up precisely that "long discussion" both on his website and in the quote I included in my post:

There is, in fact, no talking to some people.

And may I say, it is a reality with which your posts keep me familiar.

But putting aside his lip service to decency, let me ask you how many of those tens of millions of murdered human beings the killing of whom he's willing to write off as "self-defense" do you suppose would really be people there's "no talking to"?

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 388
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/25/2011 8:34:40 PM   
anthrosub


Posts: 843
Joined: 6/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

As we mature through generations, you would think the time would come when some housecleaning was in order. If not, things just get skewed more and more. That's another issue with leaving something open to interpretation. Like a scale for weighing things accurately...every once in while it needs to be recalibrated. I think there are some things we can pretty much agree could stand a little redress.

That's why I noted the shortcomings of our definition of "religion". It is not actually necessary to believe in God to follow a theistic practice. For the practice it is sufficient to conduct yourself as if God existed, as if a loving Father (generic: Mother/Father) existed, who was good, who cared about you, and about all life and the universe.

Now if you don't believe in God, you might ask what good can it do to "imagine" one. But what we imagine takes on a psychological reality, and for better or worse we are doing it all the time. So choose your poison. By the discipline of theistic practice a transpersonal self becomes instantiated which is outside the ego and capable of seeing that to which your ego is blind, not only your shortcomings but undiscovered capacities as well.

Think of just one simple observance, that of saying grace at meals. Why should you thank God for your food? It's there because you worked your ass off to put it there, not because of some "God". But while that is factual, it most certainly doesn't encompass the truth.

That food is there because there are jobs where you live and you are lucky enough to have one; it's there because people hundreds or thousands of miles away raise livestock and farm the land; it's there because other people work to bring it to where you can buy it; it's there because we are lucky enough to have a climate that allows those activities; it's there because our planet's magnetic field protects life on Earth from being irradiated to death by our star... and on and on. It is manifestly not there simply because of you.

Theism is a practice, and one which is no more dependent upon "belief" than meditation or yoga. It is a practice that, like meditation and yoga, is intended to change you, to change your relationship to life, to your fellows, and to the world.

K.



You make an excellent point and if I may say so, reminding me and anyone who reads your post that we can all stand to put ourselves in perspective every once in a while is also not a bad idea. Thank you.

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 389
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/25/2011 8:45:55 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Actually, he very nicely sums up precisely that "long discussion" both on his website and in the quote I included in my post:

Oh he does? You've read that long discussion?
 
 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
But putting aside his lip service to decency, let me ask you how many of those tens of millions of murdered human beings the killing of whom he's willing to write off as "self-defense" do you suppose would really be people there's "no talking to"?

There's that dishonest quote mining again.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 1/25/2011 8:47:25 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 390
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/25/2011 8:49:09 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

The fact that you went to PTL and thought it was a wonderful place (the idea of it anyway) tells me a lot about your taking so much exception with much that I have said in this thread. I'm not criticizing you for going there...I just mean it helps paint a clearer picture for me.


Tell me, what does that tell you about me? Im curious to know. I have a feeling you are far from the reality.

quote:

The problem of questioning intelligence...I may need others who have followed our exchange to chime in. It seems to me when I talk about the whole thing on a broad level, you take it as if I'm talking about you and are offended. If you do, then please realize everyone is not at the same intellectual level. That's not a derogatory statement...it's an accurate observation of humanity


Absolutely. But the question was placed by you, via the Harris quote. You were the one who brought that into this discussion. Im not sure about your education. My own consists of three degrees, and a minor. Not too shabby for someone who "believes".

quote:

Regarding my use of the term "vast majority", you do realize don't you there are more people out there with less than or equal to a high school level education, let alone college (I'm talking western standards here). And please don't confuse intelligence with an education...they are not one and the same.


And some of the most intelligent people I have met never attended college... some never graduated highschool. On the flip side, I have met some "well educated" people who were dumber than a box of rocks and would never make it in the real world.

Dateline: July 5, 2004
An all-time high 85 percent of U.S. adults age 25 and over had completed at least high school in 2003, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. Also in 2003, 27 percent of adults age 25 and over had a college degree, another record.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/censusandstatistics/a/highschool.htm



quote:

Also, to see a fault and point it out is without malice. Science and religion do have their place. My main criticism is that it's time for religion to step out of the circle of science in certain areas and also to point out where it is really intended as a guide and not a history book. As I said before, there are lots of people out there ill-equipped to see the difference.


The Pope recently came out in support of condoms. Any idea how huge that is? We, in america, cant even get our legislatures to get together on national issues, and you want science and religion to meet because you feel its time?

You have, according to you, people on one side of the issue ~ religion vs science ~ unable to agree with people on the other side of the issue. My point is that many of us are already seeing both sides. People have been harmed in the name of religion. People also have been harmed in the name of science. Yet, I never see anyone take on the science aspect of the harm.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 1/25/2011 8:54:40 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 391
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/25/2011 9:33:46 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Oh he does? You've read that long discussion?

You posted a trimmed quote, Mister Slick. It continues...

Some critics have interpreted the second sentence of this passage to mean that I advocate simply killing religious people for their beliefs. Read in context, it should be clear that I am not at all ignoring the link between belief and behavior. The fact that belief determines behavior is what makes certain beliefs so dangerous.

I never suggested that he was ignoring the link between belief and behavior. In fact, I cited it:

Certain beliefs place their adherents beyond the reach of every peaceful means of persuasion, while inspiring them to commit acts of extraordinary violence against others. There is, in fact, no talking to some people. If they cannot be captured, and they often cannot, otherwise tolerant people may be justified in killing them in self-defense.

He is plainly proposing that pre-emptive murder -- killing them even if they haven't done anything yet -- may be justified as "self defense".

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

There's that dishonest quote mining again.

So unh, does this mean that you are continuing your personal attacks... and lying yet again in the bargain?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/25/2011 10:02:44 PM >

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 392
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/25/2011 9:59:47 PM   
eihwaz


Posts: 367
Joined: 10/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
The problem of questioning intelligence...I may need others who have followed our exchange to chime in. It seems to me when I talk about the whole thing on a broad level, you take it as if I'm talking about you and are offended. If you do, then please realize everyone is not at the same intellectual level. That's not a derogatory statement...it's an accurate observation of humanity.

This and some of your other postings indicate that you regard intelligence as monodimensional (or even monotonic ) and that you have a rather specific notion of what constitutes intelligence -- such as the ability to reason scientifically, logically, or deductively. Yet the realm of human intelligence (and intellect) is much more richly varied and multidimensional than that.

While I assume you don't intend it, your narrow -- not to say parochial -- view, by conveys a certain arrogance and superior attitude, exemplified by the quoted excerpt and your repeated statements variously lamenting or decrying the alleged ignorance or lesser intelligence of religious adherents (a standard,, not to say stereotypical, which is to say often unexamined, position of a certain breed of atheist).  You may not be aware of the disrespect you evince with such statements but certainly you can understand that others would find it a bit trying.

If you're proposing that religion, religious belief, and spirituality are the province of some posited intellectually unwashed, feeble minded mass of humanity (akin to the Marx's religion is the opiate et cetera), then why not do so forthrightly and with supporting arguments, and without presupposing that you already know the answer?

There are some very smart, intellectually accomplished people who are also believers, religious adherents, or otherwise engage with spirituality.  Some might even be participating in this thread!

quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
Scientific method is the epitomy of logic.

Actually logic is the epitome of logic.  Science uses logic, but also fundamentally relies on empirical observation and modeling.


< Message edited by eihwaz -- 1/25/2011 10:13:50 PM >

(in reply to anthrosub)
Profile   Post #: 393
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/25/2011 10:29:52 PM   
eihwaz


Posts: 367
Joined: 10/6/2008
Status: offline 		According to Harris, he's quoting the entirety of the relevant passage from his book:

quote:

ORIGINAL: SamHarris.org
Wherever they appear, [Christopher] Hedges’ comments seem calculated to leave the impression that I want the U.S. government to start killing Muslims by the millions. I will let the reader judge whether this award-winning journalist has represented my views fairly. Below I present the only passage I have ever written on the subject of preventative [sic] nuclear war and the only passage that Hedges could be referring to in my work (The End of Faith pp. 128-129).[emphasis added]

Harris denies that he is advocating preemptive nuclear war against Muslims in this passage.  Others may disagree, but in my opinion a careful reading of the text shows that Harris is being disingenuous and that, contrary to his denial, this is exactly what he advocates.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 394
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/26/2011 2:12:28 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

According to Harris, he's quoting the entirety of the relevant passage from his book:

quote:

ORIGINAL: SamHarris.org
Wherever they appear, [Christopher] Hedges’ comments seem calculated to leave the impression that I want the U.S. government to start killing Muslims by the millions. I will let the reader judge whether this award-winning journalist has represented my views fairly. Below I present the only passage I have ever written on the subject of preventative [sic] nuclear war and the only passage that Hedges could be referring to in my work (The End of Faith pp. 128-129).[emphasis added]

Harris denies that he is advocating preemptive nuclear war against Muslims in this passage.  Others may disagree, but in my opinion a careful reading of the text shows that Harris is being disingenuous and that, contrary to his denial, this is exactly what he advocates.


I have tried to stay out of the discussion about Harris, finding other themes on this thread more interesting. Something in your post made me check out the link and read Harris' website.

Despite reading the linked quote 3 times, I found no reason to impute any meaning other than its ordinary meaning in everyday English. I found nothing to suggest he was being disingenuous.

For mine, Harris set up a "plausible scenario", then discussed how it might play out as part of a general polemic. For mine, he disassociated himself from the scenario in sweepingly unambiguous terms at least 4 times. His horror of the scenario is, for mine, indisputable.

So I am unclear as to how you arrived at the conclusion you did. We are all free to interpret anything anyway we like of course. So I'd appreciate it if you outline the process and offer supporting evidence for the conclusion you found.


Edited to add extra truth and herbs

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/26/2011 2:13:31 AM >

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 395
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/26/2011 5:10:35 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata



That's why I noted the shortcomings of our definition of "religion". It is not actually necessary to believe in God to follow a theistic practice. For the practice it is sufficient to conduct yourself as if God existed, as if a loving Father (generic: Mother/Father) existed, who was good, who cared about you, and about all life and the universe.

Now if you don't believe in God, you might ask what good can it do to "imagine" one. But what we imagine takes on a psychological reality, and for better or worse we are doing it all the time. So choose your poison. By the discipline of theistic practice a transpersonal self becomes instantiated which is outside the ego and capable of seeing that to which your ego is blind, not only your shortcomings but undiscovered capacities as well.

Think of just one simple observance, that of saying grace at meals. Why should you thank God for your food? It's there because you worked your ass off to put it there, not because of some "God". But while that is factual, it most certainly doesn't encompass the truth.

That food is there because there are jobs where you live and you are lucky enough to have one; it's there because people hundreds or thousands of miles away raise livestock and farm the land; it's there because other people work to bring it to where you can buy it; it's there because we are lucky enough to have a climate that allows those activities; it's there because our planet's magnetic field protects life on Earth from being irradiated to death by our star... and on and on. It is manifestly not there simply because of you.

Theism is a practice, and one which is no more dependent upon "belief" than meditation or yoga. It is a practice that, like meditation and yoga, is intended to change you, to change your relationship to life, to your fellows, and to the world.

K.


It seems to me that the entirety of your suggestions are located within the here and now, while having the potential to go anywhere. In which case can I suggest that the use of the terms theism and religion is not as helpful or productive as it ought to be.

Theism and religion carry certain connotations in everyday language, some of them quite negative for some people. They incite stereotyped reactions and fixed positions. Using these terms locates the discussion in a place that is already overcrowded and contested. Even in this thread, communication and understanding was improved, I felt, once we had all agreed that theistic beliefs were not central or necessary to our themes. Looking back, that seems to me to be about the point when real progress and communication started happening.

De Leuze and Guattari propose thinking about humans as an open-ended set of potentials in "Anti-Oedipus". I can't help feeling that this conversation and project would be advanced by borrowing that or a similar notion or terminology.

My feeling is that this departure point of humans as open-ended sets of potentials, realisable in a multitude of directions and practices, is broad enough for our purposes conceptually and flexible enough to accommodate the range of various 'realising' practices (if I can call them that) without prejudicing anything or alienating anyone. There could be many other eloquent terms or ways of conveying the ideas/practices being discussed here.

I am pretty optimistic that adopting a new open-ended terminology reasonably free of historical baggage would clarify and advance the discussion.


Edited to add extra truth and herbs

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/26/2011 5:26:45 AM >

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 396
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/26/2011 9:39:37 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
He is plainly proposing that pre-emptive murder -- killing them even if they haven't done anything yet -- may be justified as "self defense".


Is he doing that or is he contemplating the ethicacy of our current practice of using predator drones to kill Taliban members during a time of war?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
So unh, does this mean that you are continuing your personal attacks


Yes, I am criticizing you personally for the dishonest tactics you often use against those who don't share your world view.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
... and lying yet again in the bargain?


It's demonstrable that you cut out the word unconscionable. A word placed in bold presumably because it's relevant to the position he's trying to express.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 1/26/2011 9:42:09 AM >

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 397
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/26/2011 10:14:38 AM   
Louve00


Posts: 1674
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		Kirata, I was going to send you cmail to say this, but thought better of it because there is nothing wrong with saying it publicly, although I hope you don't take this in a condescending way.

I like your rationale and the way you think.  You spawn a lot of thoughts for me (and this isn't necessarily related to religion, in fact, its not related at all...I just like the way you think and interact) 


_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 398
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/26/2011 11:27:53 AM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

"God was behind Big Bang, Pope says"


I hope He didn't burn his nose.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 1/26/2011 11:28:07 AM >

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

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Profile   Post #: 399
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/26/2011 11:50:38 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		LOL

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 400
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