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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/5/2011 9:26:47 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I have listened to your arguments and considered them fully and respectfully.

It's a miracle!

I'm not sure how you were listening to my "arguments" as I wasn't aware I was making any. I was responding to arguments that you and others put to me proposing a certain interpretation of Harris.

Or so I thought. If you wish to insist that I was advancing an argument, there's not much I can do about that. I can assure you that was neither my understanding nor my intention.

quote:

Kirata
At the root of every religion with which I am familiar, there exists the concept that we are all in some way one. Whether or not that can be proven scientifically, I can imagine no better basis upon which to establish a morality that would, if adopted, encourage peace, human flourishing, and harmony.

Kirata, what am I to make of you?

Just as you were so busy tying yourself up with ever-tightening knots (re: the Harris sideshow), you produce an absolute gem such as this.

The principle you advance here is, for me, elegant and inspiring. This is the type of area I hoped we might explore when I initially responded to your remarks about the underlying unities to be found in mediation and prayer.

The idea of the oneness of all humans resonates strongly with the democratic principle, human rights, tolerance, respect autonomy and whole feast of desirable virtues, moral and otherwise. It is theistically neutral - both sides of that argument can subscribe to this principle with compromising their beliefs (or so it seems to me).

Without having thought it through fully, "scientific validation" seems quite unnecessary, even superfluous to me. Though others might disagree, for me the aims of universal "peace, human flourishing, and harmony" are sufficient in themselves to justify their adoption.

So, for me, this is potentially fruitful terrain to explore. I look forward to you expanding on your foundation if you so choose.

Edited with an olive branch

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/5/2011 9:44:45 PM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/5/2011 11:28:44 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I am not unsympathetic to the argument that morality should be based on reality rather than "mythology." But it is inquisitorial nonsense to dismiss religion wholesale as a species of heresy. There is a baby-and-the-bathwater problem here. At the root of every religion with which I am familiar, there exists the concept that we are all in some way one. Whether or not that can be proven scientifically, I can imagine no better basis upon which to establish a morality that would, if adopted, encourage peace, human flourishing, and harmony.

I'm not trying to toss out the baby, all the beneficial stuff that religions tend to steal credit for: community, meaning in life, morality, meditation, excetera still exist without religions. I'm pointing out that bathing children in filthy contaminated water may have been the norm back in the bronze age, but we know better now, we shouldn't still be doing it.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 2/5/2011 11:29:20 PM >

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Post #: 502

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/5/2011 11:50:07 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
That's an example of my point, the use of "divine" texts to determine what was moral didn't stop slavery. In some cases such texts were used to justify slavery.

Really, does anyone seriously believe the opposite?

I don't know, some people wear some pretty severe faith blinders. They will bend over backwards trying to associate anything good with their religion and won't acknowledge any of the bad. For instance Tazzy is convinced that the crusades and the Spanish inquisition weren't religious.

Hey Tazzy, does the Bible endorse slavery?

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

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Post #: 503

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/6/2011 4:40:52 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

I have to give the disclaimer that I'm far from familiar with the nuances of Harris's position but my impression of it is that one weighs the morality of an act in terms of human and animal suffering and against alternatives. As such causing/preventing suffering and the possible alternatives are relevant.

If you arent familiar, maybe you shouldnt speak for the great Sam Harris.

As such, you are speaking for yourself. Try answering the question.

quote:

Exactly the same way it works now.

Again, not an answer. Just a deflection.

quote:

That's an example of my point, the use of "divine" texts to determine what was moral didn't stop slavery. In some cases such texts were used to justify slavery.

Slavery was practiced in parts of the world that had no association with the "devine" texts. Your excuse for those?

quote:

For instance Tazzy is convinced that the crusades and the Spanish inquisition weren't religious.

Pretty simplistic summary of my POV.. one that I have made in depth. Which tells me you didnt go at it with an open mind, nor with any attempt at understanding.

Way to go, Steel!

quote:

Hey Tazzy, does the Bible endorse slavery?

Yep, sure did.

quote:

According to Jewish and Christian tradition, God dictated the Book of Leviticus to Moses as He did the other books of the Bible.[1] Modern scholarship sees it as a product of the Priestly source and the 5th century BCE.

Your point?

Hey Steel... did a society need the Bible to endorse slavery? (Careful how you answer this one)

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 2/6/2011 4:48:17 AM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/6/2011 5:19:02 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I'm not trying to toss out the baby, all the beneficial stuff that religions tend to steal credit for...

There is, in fact, no talking to some people. ~Sam Harris

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/6/2011 6:07:50 AM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

Well, yes, but we must be careful not to be too literal in our reading of the Bible. 'Slave' in that excerpt probably actually means 'horse and cart', or 'pet hamster', or something.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/6/2011 6:08:51 AM

tazzygirl

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Same question to you, Peon.

did a society need the Bible to endorse slavery?

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/6/2011 6:11:50 AM

PeonForHer

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Who cares? The point is, it didn't stop slavery. That much is abundantly clear.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/6/2011 6:17:07 AM

tazzygirl

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And, according to you, it should have?

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/6/2011 6:39:47 AM

PeonForHer

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No. I wouldn't have expected it for a moment to have wiped out slavery in the Christian world. In my experience, theists almost, but not quite, like to say that it had this effect, before realising it's a ludicrously untenable position. It's untenable a) because the bible's moral positions have always been systematically ignored or warped to suit the demands of polity and economy and/or b) because its moral injunctions, like the example cited by Steel, are out of date and no longer reasonably defensible.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/6/2011 8:02:52 AM

tazzygirl

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I agree with b.

Slavery was an accepted cultural condition dating back to the China Empire since around 210 BCE. Taken in the context that Christianity, as a movement began around 1AD. The writings in Leviticus is dated about 5 BCE.

What I find amazing is how anyone can take what was written so long ago and apply snipped segments of it today.

Do you know the Bible also says if a man is a runaway, then you should take him into your home and not return him to his master?

Have you seen this snippet?

"You shall not hand over to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you." (Deuteronomy 23:15)

"He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:16)

Depending on where you look, and the context of what is being written about, the story changes.

So sorry to disappoint, but slavery was very much a part of the culture in 5 BCE. To have it not be a part of the literature from that time would be quite strange. To have literature come out specifically against something, back then... lol. Who is anyone trying to kid.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/6/2011 8:07:16 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
And, according to you, it should have?

If a list of moral absolutes were ever to be handed down by an omniscient, omnipotent being, I would expect first of all that such a being could accurately count to ten and second of all that instead of spending the first four expressing personal insecurity such a being would find room in his top ten list to speak out against slavery.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/6/2011 8:10:56 AM

tazzygirl

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Ah, the open-minded one is back to remind us all how narrow minded religious people are.

Do, please, continue.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 513

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/6/2011 8:12:59 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

If a list of moral absolutes were ever to be handed down by an omniscient, omnipotent being, I would expect first of all that such a being could accurately count to ten and second of all that instead of spending the first four expressing personal insecurity such a being would find room in his top ten list to speak out against slavery.

And someone else could argue that the moral list should have been about the environment, women's rights, the absence of intolerance, ect ect ect.

Instead of dealing with what "should have been" about a piece of literature that was written so long ago, how about dealing with what "is".

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 514

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/6/2011 8:15:05 AM

tweakabelle

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Slavery is absolutely immoral, indefensible. I hope we all agree on that.

If (as Christians claim) the Bible is God's word, the source of Christian morality (which is an absolute morality for Christians) then surely the question is why doesn't it condemn slavery?

This question becomes even more urgent if one takes into account the Biblical approval of slavery (Leviticus, quoted above)

Tazzy, I felt your earlier point regarding the connections between social and cultural conditions and morality was an excellent one. Doesn't this imply that the morality of the Bible is way past its use by date?

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/6/2011 8:23:11 AM

tazzygirl

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Problem is this, tweak, the bible holds many positions abotu slavery.

Do not slander a slave to his master, Or he will curse you and you will be found guilty. (Proverbs 30:10)

He who pampers his slave from childhood Will in the end find him to be a son. (Proverbs 29:21)

"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment." (Exodus 21:2)

All who are under the yoke as slaves are to regard their own masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our doctrine will not be spoken against. Those who have believers as their masters must not be disrespectful to them because they are brethren, but must serve them all the more, because those who partake of the benefit are believers and beloved. Teach and preach these principles. (1 Timothy 6:1-2)

And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him. (Ephesians 6:9)

Masters, grant to your slaves justice and fairness, knowing that you too have a Master in heaven. (Colossians 4:1)

Again, all this doesnt make it right by todays standards. But it was legal at the time. Did that make it morally right? Of course not, by todays standards. However, morals change over time.

quote:

If (as Christians claim) the Bible is God's word, the source of Christian morality (which is an absolute morality for Christians) then surely the question is why doesn't it condemn slavery?

This question becomes even more urgent if one takes into account the Biblical approval of slavery (Leviticus, quoted above)

Again, how can you condemn something you dont realize is condemnable? Slavery was a way of life, all over... not just in one culture but in every culture.

quote:

Doesn't this imply that the morality of the Bible is way past its use by date?

Morality of the Bible? Is it morality its dictating, or acceptance of the life that is being lead and how to deal with it?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 516

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/6/2011 8:41:12 AM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Again, all this doesnt make it right by todays standards. But it was legal at the time. Did that make it morally right? Of course not, by todays standards. However, morals change over time.

I'm glad we agree that morals change over time. For me this is a key point.

If morals change over time, they can't be absolute can they?

Further if those changes occur in line with various changes in human society, doesn't that imply that morals are human not divine?

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/6/2011 8:53:53 AM

tazzygirl

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I never said morals are absolute. They indeed do change over time. In 100 years, we could have a shift that makes slavery once again legal... who knows.

quote:

Further if those changes occur in line with various changes in human society, doesn't that imply that morals are human not divine?

The divine is in how to handle them while waiting for humans to change...

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 518

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/6/2011 9:01:57 AM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The divine is in how to handle them while waiting for humans to change...

Indeedies! That's a concept of the divine I can live with!

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/6/2011 9:02:59 AM

tazzygirl

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See? We aint all that different.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 520

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