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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/10/2011 8:39:03 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
I've already posted the definitive answer to this, Ron. The Pope was lying. A ginormous chicken and bacon sandwich was behind the Big Bang. I have Peonal Infallibility, so if you continue to ask how I know I'll send some lads round to burn you.

I heard it was a unicorn orgy. Those unicorns, they really had a big bang!

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/10/2011 8:40:56 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Um . . . Kirata . . . Joan of Arc? How would you, personally, be able to tell the difference after the event, between the purported vision of someone who announces himself as a saint, and the delusions of a lunatic?

How would you tell during?

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/10/2011 9:10:11 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

Tweakabelle (post #578)
So if such a Truth were available, could humans be trusted with it? Would that be desirable? Or disastrous?

I'm sad that no one has seen fit to respond to these questions.

Have they been forgotten, overlooked in the shadow of Harris controversy or unworthy of a response? Are they just boring?

For me, these questions lead up to an even more intriguing and fascinating question:

Is the idea of a God-entity itself an immoral idea?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/10/2011 9:58:55 PM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/10/2011 9:16:03 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
The use of? Do you have an English comprehension problem? You do know what that "pre" means in pre-emptive don't you? It means "the use of" hasn't happened yet. Hence the word "first" in first strike. See? I know it's horribly obscure, but think about it.

Self defense often is preemptive. An iconic example of self defense when it comes to guns is shooting the bad guy before he manages to shoot you. If for instance the physical attack you are trying to defend against is being shot in the face and having your brains splattered all over the wall. You have to strike first before the gunman has manages his physical attack, if you wait until after you won't be able to manage complex actions like self defense. Your actions will be more along the lines of sitting in an urn or fertilizing plants.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/10/2011 9:43:47 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Again, show me the attack you are referring too... not an attack a week ago... or a month ago... show me the attack in direct correlation to your posts above.

My post:

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Back to the name calling huh. Just so that you know demonizing those who disagree with you doesn't constitute evidence that your opinion is correct.

was a response to your post #535 where you called me hypocritical and narrow minded which by using the skills I've learned from the Tazzy school of debating I am able to determine means that you are an all around asshole.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/10/2011 10:23:31 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

Tweakabelle (post #578)
So if such a Truth were available, could humans be trusted with it? Would that be desirable? Or disastrous?

If we were all on the same page...well...I'm having a hard time seeing how that would be a bad thing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Is the idea of a God-entity itself an immoral idea?

I certainly have an issue with the people who think they are infallible by proxy.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/10/2011 10:30:27 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

So if such a Truth were available, could humans be trusted with it? Would that be desirable? Or disastrous?

Before we can even answer your questions, there is a bigger question to be asked. I am going with the assumption that the Truth, as you have used it here, isnt anyone's particular Truth, just the "Truth" in general.

Are people, on the whole, ready to hear whatever Truth there is? Can the masses handle that Truth? Is society ready to deal with the fall out from the revelation?

To me, this is a bigger issue that just... Im right, you are wrong, neener neener neener issue.

An interesting concept to be thought about from both sides of the issue.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/11/2011 6:51:21 AM

GotSteel

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If we could tap into some sort of Jehovapedia, I'd expect that we'd all get our positions from it, hence we'd never get to the I'm right your wrong stage.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/11/2011 7:56:58 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Self defense often is preemptive. An iconic example...

If the guy is over on the other side of town bad-mouthing you, and you decide to drive over there and kill him, that's murder.

K.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/11/2011 8:35:37 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Self defense often is preemptive. An iconic example...

If the guy is over on the other side of town bad-mouthing you, and you decide to drive over there and kill him, that's murder.

Absolutely.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/11/2011 12:55:01 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

Tweakabelle (post #578)
So if such a Truth were available, could humans be trusted with it? Would that be desirable? Or disastrous?

If we were all on the same page...well...I'm having a hard time seeing how that would be a bad thing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Is the idea of a God-entity itself an immoral idea?

I certainly have an issue with the people who think they are infallible by proxy.

One argument could go like this:

The existence of a God-entity is almost always associated with a group of humans who claim to represent God in this world, usually a church or suchlike. Such people are prone to human failings.

The power attached to being able to pronounce on behalf of and to interpret a God entity is enormous. Think of the position of the Pope in relation to Catholics. And of the doctrine of papal infallibility. The power of people at the top of the hierarchy is unchallengeable.

Historically, people in such positions have not always wielded that power for the common good. Again, thinking of the Papacy as an example, look at the political and temporal machinations of the Vatican through history. Or even the position of the papacy today in relation to HIV/AIDS and condoms, contraception and abortion. Or the way the so-called 'Divine Right of Kings' was promoted by Church authorities and theologians.

It could be argued that if such a powerful position were available to humans, it would be abused sooner or later. Indeed such an outcome is so predictable it can be seen as inevitable.

So access to a God-entity/Truth will result in an inevitable corruption and a kind of tyranny. This is less than desirable. If the scale of corruption matched that of say the Papacy in the time of the Borgias, then it could be seen as disastrous or at least potentially disastrous.

This inevitable outcome makes the notion of a God-entity immoral for humans - it generates more power than humans are capable of wielding with integrity, it makes demands on humans that humans are most unlikely to fulfil.

That's the way one of the arguments goes (there are other arguments too) ... it's not necessarily my view at all.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/11/2011 1:11:25 PM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/11/2011 1:01:20 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

Or even the position of the papacy today in relation to HIV/AIDS and condoms

Could have sworn the Pope agreed that condoms for sex workers was best.

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/11/20/pope-oks-condoms-in-some-cases-cites-use-by-male-prostitutes-av/

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/11/2011 1:24:30 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Or even the position of the papacy today in relation to HIV/AIDS and condoms

Could have sworn the Pope agreed that condoms for sex workers was best.

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/11/20/pope-oks-condoms-in-some-cases-cites-use-by-male-prostitutes-av/

My understanding is that the Pope's 'approval' was very limited and circumstantial.

My recall is that he argued it might be a lesser evil to use a condom to prevent HIV transmission in certain conditions (a HIV+ male prostitute about to participate in anal sex was the example used from memory).

That's not exactly enthusiastic approval, is it?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/11/2011 1:29:52 PM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/11/2011 9:23:40 PM

GotSteel

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Certainly, it's good that he moved the position on condoms from one that's pure evil to one that's less evil but you still have to expect people to get bent out of shape about the evil part.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/11/2011 9:51:25 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

My understanding is that the Pope's 'approval' was very limited and circumstantial.

My recall is that he argued it might be a lesser evil to use a condom to prevent HIV transmission in certain conditions (a HIV+ male prostitute about to participate in anal sex was the example used from memory).

That's not exactly enthusiastic approval, is it?

Nope, nor would I expect it to be. Now, ask yourself this... how many people follow that teaching.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/11/2011 10:25:54 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

My understanding is that the Pope's 'approval' was very limited and circumstantial.

My recall is that he argued it might be a lesser evil to use a condom to prevent HIV transmission in certain conditions (a HIV+ male prostitute about to participate in anal sex was the example used from memory).

That's not exactly enthusiastic approval, is it?

Nope, nor would I expect it to be. Now, ask yourself this... how many people follow that teaching.

Frankly I have no idea. My guess is that it's impact varies enormously.

In the West, I would imagine significant numbers of the faithful ignore it. demographic factors (eg whether the population is majority Catholic or not) would also influence the numbers and more importantly, the available choices. (see my earlier post re Ireland, post # 159 page 8)

OTOH in somewhere like Africa, I'd imagine the level of 'disobedience' would be much lower. A lot of foreign aid, including HIV/AIDS education programs has been made conditional on certain moral factors (eg. non-promotion of condoms, promotion of sexual abstinence as opposed to safe sex practices etc). Far fewer Africans would be educated enough or affluent enough to be in a position to exercise free choice in this area.

Is this an issue on which the Pope has invoked his 'infallibility' power? I'm unsure whether it is or it isn't. This seems to me to be a relevant factor too. I am unclear on how this impacts on the questions I posed. Morals aren't supposed to be reducible to matters of numbers or popularity.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/11/2011 10:28:09 PM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/11/2011 10:32:41 PM

tazzygirl

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Ah, Africa, where the Virgin Cure is the tried and true method.

Bishop Manuel Clemente, Porto, Portugal
In response to Pope Benedict’s statement condemning the use of condoms to prevent the transmission of HIV, Bishop Clemente of Portugal denounced the pope’s remarks stating that in the case of HIV, condoms are “not only recommended, they can be ethically obligatory.” He went on to say that "the great solution to the AIDS problem, like any other problem, has to be behavioral," but those living with HIV/AIDS "have a moral obligation to prevent and not provoke the illness." Finally, he added that the pope’s advisors “should be more learned.”

“Bishop Says Condoms Sometimes Needed.” Associated Press, March 29, 2009.

Bishop Januário Torgal Ferreira, Portugal
In response to Pope Benedict’s comments denouncing condom use as a means to prevent the transmission of HIV, the bishop of the armed forces of Portgual, Januário Torgal Ferreira, stated that “from a medical point of view, I have no doubt that there are obviously circumstances where prohibiting condoms is to consent to the death of many people.” He went on to note that “the people who are advising the pope should be more cultured.”

Mario de Queiroz, " Africa: Pope on Condoms – Out in the Cold." IPS, March 24, 2009.

http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/topics/hivaids/bishopssupportcondoms.asp

There are many more. The Pope made the statement that condoms would never be accepted. His own Bishops have spoken out against his comments. Its not just the Heirachy in the church that can actually believe differently than the Pope.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/11/2011 10:36:55 PM

tweakabelle

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and your point is .....?

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/11/2011 10:40:58 PM

tazzygirl

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My point is that just because the Pope says something, that doesnt make it the final say on anything. People still have the choice of following or not. His own clergy will question and defend their positions as they see them for the benefit of those who follow them. The Pope is the head of the Church, just like any leader is the head of his company/nation/family/ect... that doesnt mean he wont be challenged.. and he has been, repeatedly.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/11/2011 11:37:11 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

My point is that just because the Pope says something, that doesnt make it the final say on anything. People still have the choice of following or not. His own clergy will question and defend their positions as they see them for the benefit of those who follow them. The Pope is the head of the Church, just like any leader is the head of his company/nation/family/ect... that doesnt mean he wont be challenged.. and he has been, repeatedly.

People don't take the notion of the "Divine Right of Kings" very seriously nowadays - but it ruled the roost for many centuries. So of course the amount of power, the amount of acceptance of that power will vary for heaps of reasons.

It's sufficient for the argument I posed that it is agreed that the Pope wields a considerable amount of power over the faithful. "[C]onsiderable" here means: such a level of power that the abuse of it would pose a serious problem. The mere existence of the Papal infallibility claim is IMHO enough to make the point. Others may require a higher level of persuasion.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/11/2011 11:42:47 PM >

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