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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 7:48:27 AM   
anthrosub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

It's a gentle yielding to a theistic concept painted over reality in a way that is moderately inarguable.


I must complement you on saying so much in only a few words. A rare gift indeed. I agree.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 8:04:01 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

What do you think of his reference to "intellectual honesty" as it applies to the current state of religion in the modern world? Or do you simply decline to comment?


What do i think about his statement?

Do me a favor... we need a working definition for that term. Lets start there, please.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 8:29:41 AM   
anthrosub


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Joined: 6/2/2004
Status: offline 		Okay...to me it means people being inwardly honest with themselves. Admitting inwardly they don't know something despite really wanting it to be otherwise. I think a lot of people (and this is just my opinion) are either not interested in doing the mental work or too busy with their daily lives. Faith is convenient at a certain level don't you think?

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 8:48:54 AM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Here is a definition i have found.

Harvard ethicist Louis M. Guenin describes the “kernel” of intellectual honesty as “a virtuous disposition to eschew deception when given an incentive for deception.” Intellectual honesty involves presenting and discussing facts in an inclusive, fair, and open-minded manner. It entails examining and considering all available data not just the information that supports one’s preferred solution or position. Intellectual honesty requires that people put aside personal interests and assumptions and be as objective as possible.

Can we agree?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to anthrosub)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 8:51:43 AM   
anthrosub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Here is a definition i have found.

Harvard ethicist Louis M. Guenin describes the “kernel” of intellectual honesty as “a virtuous disposition to eschew deception when given an incentive for deception.” Intellectual honesty involves presenting and discussing facts in an inclusive, fair, and open-minded manner. It entails examining and considering all available data not just the information that supports one’s preferred solution or position. Intellectual honesty requires that people put aside personal interests and assumptions and be as objective as possible.

Can we agree?


Yes

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

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Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 8:53:17 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		How do you see Harris fitting into that definition?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to anthrosub)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 8:59:46 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

Okay...to me it means people being inwardly honest with themselves. Admitting inwardly they don't know something despite really wanting it to be otherwise. I think a lot of people (and this is just my opinion) are either not interested in doing the mental work or too busy with their daily lives. Faith is convenient at a certain level don't you think?

The problem you have, as I see it, is that you don't know what he knows so this kind of flaws your argument as to what intellectual honesty is.

Seems to me the pope does not do much at all but ponder, his daily life isn't so busy that he can't spend time pondering. However (as you and I suspect) he is a member of an organisation with a loyalty to that organisation. So I suspect (it's merely a suspicion) that even if he held a view that was contrary to that of his organisation he wouldn't speak of it. You can't know the thoughts of others unless they openly share them but you also can't know when they are being open about them. Intellectual honesty is a projection of your suspicions of others.

I tend to ignore most things the Pope says. Actually in truth I don't really hear him much due to him being stuck in Rome and me being stuck here. I wouldn't give him anymore thought than anyone else who held an idea as to what the start point was. I'm sure someone is right but the odds are that it probably isn't him. The more opinions you have then all things being equal the more chance there is in him being more wrong than somebody else. So we should find out who that person is follow them for a bit and then wait around for the next more right person. The other week John Smith had the best idea as to how the universe was created but Sally Jones realised just the other day that the start of the universe probably didn't involve cabbages.


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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 5:38:33 PM   
GotSteel


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Status: offline 		How do you see Harris fitting into that definition?

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 5:44:04 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		But, where did God come from?

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 5:46:43 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
No one forces it on you.

Unless of course you were born into a Catholic family in which case it may well have been forced on you.

and when  you are an adult or even younger, you have the choice to walk away.

Once you are an adult you have the legal right to walk away but after years of indoctrination managing to have the choice is somewhat harder. Even when someone manages to reject the Catholic claims of knowledge with respect to the existence of god, they still have to wade through all the dehumanizing propaganda that they have been taught thus far. It's a process which best case scenario takes years and worst case scenario they are physiologically scarred for life.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 6:01:43 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Nooooo! Really?
Who else would "The Pope" say is behind it?

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Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 7:22:56 PM   
anthrosub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

How do you see Harris fitting into that definition?


Well, first let me say I think we should all look at how we fit into that definition. It's meant to be universal and objective.

Harris has a philosophy degree from Stanford and a Ph.D. in neuroscience from UCLA. He also spent over 10 years in Asia studying meditation with Hindu and Buddhist teachers. I'm just stating his background to establish he didn't just decide one day to start being critical of religion out of the blue. He has clearly spent a good deal of time studying the subject from several perspectives and just earning those degrees exposed him to a broad range of information and resources on religion and science. His ideas were not developed in a vacuum.

That said, I think he's stating his case as objective as anyone interested in getting to the bottom of things can.

It may sound rude to say, "Either the bible is the word of God or it isn't. Either Jesus is the son of God or he isn't." But that is not being unfair...it's simply stating a logical outcome of the question regarding the authenticity of Christian doctrine.

I don't know if you've actually read or heard anything he's said. If you haven't, you can't say anything definitive about him because it would only be subjective speculation at this point. But I will tell you up front his main reason for being critical is to raise people's awareness of the danger posed by religious moderates and liberals who, by fostering a religious belief system also foster a seedbed for religious extremists to thrive.

We are seeing this already in other parts of the world in Muslim countries. His concern is it happening here in the United States. You might say it already is happening on a small scale with the murders of abortion doctors by pro-life extremists. Another example is the religious group that pickets military funerals and says they are God's punishment because we are tolerant of people who are gay.

Anyway, I will wait to hear what you have to say. I'm not sure where you're going with your posts at this point and do not want to assume anything.

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 7:31:41 PM   
anthrosub


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Joined: 6/2/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3


quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

Okay...to me it means people being inwardly honest with themselves. Admitting inwardly they don't know something despite really wanting it to be otherwise. I think a lot of people (and this is just my opinion) are either not interested in doing the mental work or too busy with their daily lives. Faith is convenient at a certain level don't you think?

The problem you have, as I see it, is that you don't know what he knows so this kind of flaws your argument as to what intellectual honesty is.

Seems to me the pope does not do much at all but ponder, his daily life isn't so busy that he can't spend time pondering. However (as you and I suspect) he is a member of an organisation with a loyalty to that organisation. So I suspect (it's merely a suspicion) that even if he held a view that was contrary to that of his organisation he wouldn't speak of it. You can't know the thoughts of others unless they openly share them but you also can't know when they are being open about them. Intellectual honesty is a projection of your suspicions of others.

I tend to ignore most things the Pope says. Actually in truth I don't really hear him much due to him being stuck in Rome and me being stuck here. I wouldn't give him anymore thought than anyone else who held an idea as to what the start point was. I'm sure someone is right but the odds are that it probably isn't him. The more opinions you have then all things being equal the more chance there is in him being more wrong than somebody else. So we should find out who that person is follow them for a bit and then wait around for the next more right person. The other week John Smith had the best idea as to how the universe was created but Sally Jones realised just the other day that the start of the universe probably didn't involve cabbages.



Thanks for your input. I don't think the definition of intellectual honesty is dependent on knowing the pope's mind. The definition applies to everyone. But I do think you are trying to say I cannot comment on the pope's intellectual honesty if I don't know what he's thinking and that would be correct. Let me also point out I haven't said he's being intellectually dishonest...this thread has been aimed at getting to the nuts and bolts of what makes people believe something purely on faith when there's a growing mass of evidence that points to the contrary or at the very least calls it into question.

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to SL4V3M4YB3)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 7:41:15 PM   
anthrosub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
No one forces it on you.

Unless of course you were born into a Catholic family in which case it may well have been forced on you.

and when  you are an adult or even younger, you have the choice to walk away.

Once you are an adult you have the legal right to walk away but after years of indoctrination managing to have the choice is somewhat harder. Even when someone manages to reject the Catholic claims of knowledge with respect to the existence of god, they still have to wade through all the dehumanizing propaganda that they have been taught thus far. It's a process which best case scenario takes years and worst case scenario they are physiologically scarred for life.



I said pretty much the same thing a few posts back. Let me share an example of how religious communities can operate.

I used to live in Great Falls, Montana. There's a large Hutterite community nearby. Hutterites have the reputation of being the best farmers in the world. They live just like the Amish do in PA except they allow and use modern machinery. The children are taught only German until they are 5 years old to prevent them from understanding anything they might hear when the go into the nearby cities with their parents on shopping trips. Once they are old enough to begin thinking for themselves, they go into the cities with a middle aged man and a senior aged man (always in threes). The middle aged man does all the business, the older man is there to provide advice from experience, and the yound man is there to learn.

This is pretty mild but does demonstrate how a community takes steps to protect itself from outside influences. To me it's a social version of an individual being close-minded. By the time these people are old enough to walk away...the rest of the world is so foreign to them that the vast majority stay put.


_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 9:35:26 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

How do you see Harris fitting into that definition?


I dont.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 9:43:48 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

It may sound rude to say, "Either the bible is the word of God or it isn't. Either Jesus is the son of God or he isn't." But that is not being unfair...it's simply stating a logical outcome of the question regarding the authenticity of Christian doctrine.


I dont consider those questions rude... just questions, and valid ones.

quote:

Intellectual honesty involves presenting and discussing facts in an inclusive, fair, and open-minded manner.


This you and i agreed upon.

quote:

While often defined as an atheist, Harris asserts that the term is not necessary. His position is that "atheism" is not a worldview or a philosophy, but the "destruction of bad ideas." He states that religion is especially rife with bad ideas, calling it "one of the most perverse misuses of intelligence we have ever devised." He compares modern religious beliefs to the myths of the Ancient Greeks, which were once accepted as fact but which are obsolete today. In a January 2007 interview with PBS, Harris said, "We don't have a word for not believing in Zeus, which is to say we are all atheists in respect to Zeus. And we don't have a word for not being an astrologer." He goes on to say that the term will be retired only when "we all just achieve a level of intellectual honesty where we are no longer going to pretend to be certain about things we are not certain about."


His position is that "atheism" is not a worldview or a philosophy, but the "destruction of bad ideas." Open-minded?

He states that religion is especially rife with bad ideas, calling it "one of the most perverse misuses of intelligence we have ever devised." Fair?

He is certainly entitled to his opinion. But, if we allow him to be entitled to his own, in the agreement of that definition, everyone else is entitled to theirs as well. So, for him to state that religions is a bad idea, or a perverse misues of intelligence, shows his own inability to be open-minded or fair, and allows other forms of the extreme to be employed.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to anthrosub)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 9:48:55 PM   
wittynamehere


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Joined: 2/5/2010
Status: offline 		Except that you don't have to look far to see that he's right - religion is perverse, is a misuse of intellect, and contains bad ideas. The quote is a really good one.

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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/9/2011 9:54:00 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		When you can post using something besides your sock puppet names, then I will address your posts.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to wittynamehere)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/10/2011 3:47:55 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Could you provide scientific proof, or just a logical argument, that shows it's better to be alive than dead?

Being alive as a self-reflective sentient creature means the existence of a mental value-creation system. Therefore, "value" exists by virtue of being alive (as we are), whereas no value exists while being dead (because no value-creation system exists).


That works well enough for me to add it to my armory. At least, if it doesn't work . . . I shall not be looking into why it doesn't. Thank you.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/10/2011 4:03:57 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		There'd be real trouble if God blamed the Pope for the big bang...

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Profile   Post #: 120
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