RE: The Texas miracle goes bust (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: The Texas miracle goes bust (1/9/2011 9:44:24 AM)

Thats part of his point, Treasure.



TreasureKY -> RE: The Texas miracle goes bust (1/9/2011 9:53:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Thats part of his point, Treasure.


Hmmm... I didn't take away from the article that the folks in Texas are greatly better off. 

I gathered his main point was that the conservative ideas in Texas haven't completely immunized it from financial woes... so therefore those ideas can't be good, at all.



tazzygirl -> RE: The Texas miracle goes bust (1/9/2011 9:55:30 AM)

I gathered from his article that the Texas way of doings things have been touted by the conservatives as the prime example of the way to run governments... and its all smoke and mirrors.



TreasureKY -> RE: The Texas miracle goes bust (1/9/2011 10:02:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I gathered from his article that the Texas way of doings things have been touted by the conservatives as the prime example of the way to run governments... and its all smoke and mirrors.


Smoke and mirrors?  Did you look at the chart I prepared?  Do you think the citizens of Texas believe it is smoke and mirrors?

Don't you think that if the US is going to face tough economic times, that the citizens would much rather have one with the tax rates of Texas, than the other states listed?

You're looking at this with binary vision.  It isn't that conservative policies will fix all the problems... it's that they will make the problems much more bearable.

Granted, if I thought there were some magic solution where everyone would get everything they want and it cost no one anything... well, I'd be all for it.  But that isn't realistic.



tazzygirl -> RE: The Texas miracle goes bust (1/9/2011 10:08:13 AM)

quote:

Don't you think that if the US is going to face tough economic times, that the citizens would much rather have one with the tax rates of Texas, than the other states listed?


And with a 25 Billion dollar shortfall, how long do you think they can sustain those tax rates? Thats the smoke and mirrors he was referring too. And its easy to hide such shortfalls when you do a budget every two years.



TreasureKY -> RE: The Texas miracle goes bust (1/9/2011 11:03:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Don't you think that if the US is going to face tough economic times, that the citizens would much rather have one with the tax rates of Texas, than the other states listed?


And with a 25 Billion dollar shortfall, how long do you think they can sustain those tax rates? Thats the smoke and mirrors he was referring too. And its easy to hide such shortfalls when you do a budget every two years.


Okay, so Texas has a choice... either cut spending more, or raise their taxes.  If they choose to raise their taxes, they are still much, much better off than those states who are facing similar budget deficits and already have much higher tax rates.

Why must you dwell on the negative?  No matter how you look at it, those conservative policies have served Texans far better than liberals policies.



pahunkboy -> RE: The Texas miracle goes bust (1/9/2011 11:34:08 AM)

Maybe Bernanki will drop money from a helicopter.



DomYngBlk -> RE: The Texas miracle goes bust (1/9/2011 2:28:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Don't you think that if the US is going to face tough economic times, that the citizens would much rather have one with the tax rates of Texas, than the other states listed?


And with a 25 Billion dollar shortfall, how long do you think they can sustain those tax rates? Thats the smoke and mirrors he was referring too. And its easy to hide such shortfalls when you do a budget every two years.


Okay, so Texas has a choice... either cut spending more, or raise their taxes.  If they choose to raise their taxes, they are still much, much better off than those states who are facing similar budget deficits and already have much higher tax rates.

Why must you dwell on the negative?  No matter how you look at it, those conservative policies have served Texans far better than liberals policies.



Don't think she was dwelling on the negative....just your ongoing hypocrisy on such issues



tazzygirl -> RE: The Texas miracle goes bust (1/9/2011 8:42:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Don't you think that if the US is going to face tough economic times, that the citizens would much rather have one with the tax rates of Texas, than the other states listed?


And with a 25 Billion dollar shortfall, how long do you think they can sustain those tax rates? Thats the smoke and mirrors he was referring too. And its easy to hide such shortfalls when you do a budget every two years.


Okay, so Texas has a choice... either cut spending more, or raise their taxes.  If they choose to raise their taxes, they are still much, much better off than those states who are facing similar budget deficits and already have much higher tax rates.

Why must you dwell on the negative?  No matter how you look at it, those conservative policies have served Texans far better than liberals policies.



It was the GOP who put Texas up as the model for the rest of the nation to follow.

As it stands, only NJ is in worse shape. Tying California. And you claim these policies are better? How is it better when, financially, they are in just as bad, or worse, shape than the rest of the states?




TreasureKY -> RE: The Texas miracle goes bust (1/10/2011 7:01:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

It was the GOP who put Texas up as the model for the rest of the nation to follow.

As it stands, only NJ is in worse shape. Tying California. And you claim these policies are better? How is it better when, financially, they are in just as bad, or worse, shape than the rest of the states?


I'm not sure how I can help you to understand this, but I'll try...

While the State Government may be facing grave financial difficulties, the citizens who finance the Government are in much better shape.

This is an oversimplification, however... which do you feel is a better situation?

1)  Your car (and only transportation to and from work) has been totaled in an accident and you will need to purchase a new one.  While you don't make a whole lot of money, you have managed to keep your debt low and have a small savings set aside.

2)  Your car (and only transportation to and from work) has been totaled in an accident and you will need to purchase a new one.  Because you don't make a lot of money, you've supplemented your income by liberally using your credit.  Your debt now exceeds your ability to comfortably repay, and you have no savings.

Not perfect analogies, but the idea is there.  The first represents Texas, and the second, California.  Both face a serious financial difficulty that they must overcome (whether of their own fault or due to unforeseen circumstances).  But while California appears to be "tapped out", Texas does have wiggle room.  Which would you believe stand a better chance at recovery with the least amount of pain?

For me, it would be obvious that Texas is in better shape.  I attribute that condition to the conservative policies that have kept spending and taxes at a minimum.  A great number of Texans feel the same way, which is why Texas embraces fiscal conservatism.



Louve00 -> RE: The Texas miracle goes bust (1/10/2011 7:31:32 AM)

I think what would be obvious in the example of losing your transportation would be that taking public transportation is in order for a while.

I see no difference in a slow death vs a fast one.  The "death" is imminent either way.  That you've duped people into thinking there wasn't an end in site just makes way for a whole lot of anxiety when the realization finally sits in.



TreasureKY -> RE: The Texas miracle goes bust (1/10/2011 10:43:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

I think what would be obvious in the example of losing your transportation would be that taking public transportation is in order for a while.

I see no difference in a slow death vs a fast one.  The "death" is imminent either way.  That you've duped people into thinking there wasn't an end in site just makes way for a whole lot of anxiety when the realization finally sits in.


I have no idea what the option of public transportation would be remotely analogous to in this case...

Nevertheless, I disagree that any "death" is imminent.  In this situation, we're talking recovery and the length of time for that recovery... unless you're of the impression that the State of Texas will undoubtedly and without question collapse.

I also disagree with your choice of the word "duped"... it implies a deliberate and malevolent intent to deceive the citizens of Texas.

As for the idea of delay, I suggest you consider that others may not feel the same way as you.  Are you suggesting that individuals facing a terminal illness should "hang it up" and not even try to seek a possible cure or delay their death?



Louve00 -> RE: The Texas miracle goes bust (1/10/2011 11:38:50 AM)

You were right that you couldn't find the parallel's of my analogies.  First off...(and what I thought was obvious, but apparently not), taking public transportation would be the cuts you referred to in fixing the problem, if you tried to fix it, and since this is all a hypothetical, we don't even know if a fix is indeed a fix.  Do we know if they've cut all they can to make this boast?  Can they cut more to solve the problems?

Second, I wasn't comparing the "death" of Tx boasting about its solution to fiscal responsibility in the same way I was a person fighting cancer.  I was simply saying losing money, whether fast or slow, is losing money and a poor budget, despite your (or the state of Tx boast).  All the good hope and intention won't solve anything financially, and yes, will delay running out of money.  If you have to adjust it, then it wasn't working to begin with, I would gather...so cutting expenses (ie, taking public transportation) is one way to 'save'.  But since we can only hope it will be enough to fix the problem, we don't really know if we ever will be able to save to buy that car...or be fiscally sound.

Maybe you still don't get my "analogies".  I always was a "different" type of thinker, so that's ok.  But if TX isn't sustaining itself, than I don't see how it can be held up as the "model" for anything....except on how to delay needing fixing.

I can see both sides of the coin here.  I agree if it works don't fix it, but if you have to fix it, then obviously it wasn't working.




TreasureKY -> RE: The Texas miracle goes bust (1/10/2011 1:51:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

You were right that you couldn't find the parallel's of my analogies.  First off...(and what I thought was obvious, but apparently not), taking public transportation would be the cuts you referred to in fixing the problem, if you tried to fix it, and since this is all a hypothetical, we don't even know if a fix is indeed a fix.  Do we know if they've cut all they can to make this boast?  Can they cut more to solve the problems?

Second, I wasn't comparing the "death" of Tx boasting about its solution to fiscal responsibility in the same way I was a person fighting cancer.  I was simply saying losing money, whether fast or slow, is losing money and a poor budget, despite your (or the state of Tx boast).  All the good hope and intention won't solve anything financially, and yes, will delay running out of money.  If you have to adjust it, then it wasn't working to begin with, I would gather...so cutting expenses (ie, taking public transportation) is one way to 'save'.  But since we can only hope it will be enough to fix the problem, we don't really know if we ever will be able to save to buy that car...or be fiscally sound.

Maybe you still don't get my "analogies".  I always was a "different" type of thinker, so that's ok.  But if TX isn't sustaining itself, than I don't see how it can be held up as the "model" for anything....except on how to delay needing fixing.

I can see both sides of the coin here.  I agree if it works don't fix it, but if you have to fix it, then obviously it wasn't working.


There are assumptions we're both taking here, but I don't think we're assuming the same thing.  I gather you are assuming that Texas is having financial difficulties due to their fiscal policies.  I'm assuming that Texas' financial difficulties are due to the economic environment that is causing all the States to have budget problems.

If you assumption is correct, then I agree... if their policies are causing them to face ruin, then those policies are indeed bad.

If my assumption is correct, then what I am saying is that it doesn't appear any policy program would have insulated Texas from financial difficulty, but the one they have is a damn sight better than the policies of California.  If no further cuts can reasonably be made in either state and taxes must be raised, then at least the folks in Texas aren't already tapped out with high taxes.

As for the "boasts", I'd have to see some specific quotes made, but my suspicion is that the GOP leaders have pointed to Texas as an example of a state whose policies help to provide a healthier financial status for both the State and its citizens under normal circumstances.  Healthier in that they make the State more resilient to economic failure... not immune.

I also suspect that any of those quotes were made prior to the current economic situation... for which I seriously doubt any of our leaders even considered it possible.



tazzygirl -> RE: The Texas miracle goes bust (1/10/2011 8:48:15 PM)

quote:

DALLAS, TX (KERA) - Texas has a budget shortfall of about 27 BILLION dollars. State Comptroller Susan Combs released the new numbers this morning. Combs says the state will generate about 72 billion dollars over the next two years - not nearly enough to cover the 99 billion in current programs and services.


http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/kera/news.newsmain/article/0/1/1747421/North.Texas/Texas.Budget.Shortfall..and..Nightly.Roundup





FirmhandKY -> RE: The Texas miracle goes bust (1/10/2011 8:55:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

DALLAS, TX (KERA) - Texas has a budget shortfall of about 27 BILLION dollars. State Comptroller Susan Combs released the new numbers this morning. Combs says the state will generate about 72 billion dollars over the next two years - not nearly enough to cover the 99 billion in current programs and services.


http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/kera/news.newsmain/article/0/1/1747421/North.Texas/Texas.Budget.Shortfall..and..Nightly.Roundup


This:

In a statement, Governor Rick Perry promises the budget will be balanced without higher taxes. He says lawmakers must separate the "wants" from the "needs."

Firm



tazzygirl -> RE: The Texas miracle goes bust (1/10/2011 9:24:00 PM)

The same Perry who was mocking California's shortfall.



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