RE: Amid all the hysteria... (Full Version)

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ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/13/2011 8:39:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

I still hold that Palin used it without any idea what she was saying.


While this is probably true, I don't find it much better.

She might try sticking to words she understands.


I love that idea. She'd never speak more than 15 seconds at a time.




TheHeretic -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/13/2011 9:55:39 PM)

Thanks for this thread, Steve. I'm a big softie, and this whole thing has just been so sad and awful.

1) The tone. I'd love to see it change, but don't expect to see it happen. "Unity" will be as quickly defined in the media as the blame for this tragedy was. The definition will become, "agreeing with the Obama agenda," mighty quickly. I'm still quite prepared to be a prick in defense of my values.

2) This guy probably could have exploded on a cultural diet of the Teletubbies. According to scattered reports, there is a history of mental illness on Mom's side and Daddy is said to have a nasty temper. He might have just been a genetic time bomb.

3) One of my brothers was taken from us by mental illness. It troubles me sometimes, and while I think we can do a much better job of screening, and should, I want the bar set very high for mandatory treatment or institutionalization.

4) Not a damn thing. I'm sure there will be legislation offered to to try though.

5) The Blood Libel, and a blood libel are different things. The original has entered the vocabulary. I think some folks are going to be sensitive to the phrase, and others are going to get all offended when they learn the centuries old origin. The latter will probably be louder, longer.

6) I try not to pay too much attention to Sarah. I don't think she's viable as the nominee, and until that is established, she keeps the early demonization off the other candidates in the starting gate. Of course, if this administration fucks up badly enough, she could win the whole thing.

7) John Stewart had a great response to the "no guns within 1000 feet" proposal. Can the rest of us get one of those too? They start yammering about censorship, that new tone goes to shit real fast.




LadyPact -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/14/2011 1:00:33 AM)

Rich did an awesome job with his reply.  Mine will probably fall short.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The Giffords shooting has caused a lot of soul searching, and a lot of hysteria.  My take:

1. I would seriously welcome less anger, less violent imagery, and less rancor in our national speech.  That said, I expect to see a new age of civility dawn, and last a few weeks.

Unfortunately, it will be just that.  A few weeks.  The image consultants will let the politicians know when it's time to step it up again.

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2. Loughner was not driven to violence by the antagonistic tenor of speech.  If he was, it was random, and he could just as easily have been set off by reading the ingredients of Froot Loops.  He's crazy as a loon, and there is NO WAY to change the national environment so that nuts like him don't get provoked.

Agreed.  I may be a bit off here, but we don't stop depicting violence in the media or entertainment venues because some nut out there will think copying the scenario in real life is a good idea.  We can't sanitize the world for the small percentage of folks who will pick up ideas for violent acts from other sources.

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3. One of the few valid concerns about how to stop him - how do we deal with the mentally ill?  He exhibited classic symptoms and nothing was done.  Reports were made, he was kicked out of school, he lost jobs and friends... all the symptoms,  Nothing happened.

Delicate territory here.  Resources for the mentally ill can be hard enough to obtain when the person is co-operating.  Even if you take the cost factor out of it, the problem is that there are not enough spots in facilities and not enough practitioners for out patient situations.  Waiting lists are already too long and that doesn't even address the additional numbers where the complications are added when the person doesn't seek treatment.

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4. The other valid concern - should there have been some way he was prevented from buying a gun?  The system as it is in place currently let him buy a gun and a clip with 30 shots in it.  While I don't like the idea of gun control, if there was some clear designation he could have as a mentally unstable man, he should not have had the ability to buy a gun.  He probably would have stolen one from someone, but no point making it easy for him.

Should there be?  Yes, I honestly believe that there should.  However, I can't say that I have any good plan that would work that would have prevented this particular situation.  I don't know the solution.

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5. Not many seem to understand the "blood libel" term and its visceral connotation to Jews.  I still hold that Palin used it without any idea what she was saying.  It's analogous to me speaking to a group and casually mentioning lynching while I did so, with no reason to do so.  It would freak out all the blacks and make them wonder why I would do that.

You're right.  Until the recent spotlighting on the term, I had no idea.  My personal policy when I know I don't have enough information is to say so.  I know that has failed for Palin in the past, but I'm thinking she might want to go back to it.

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6. Palin screwed up.  Using the term was just weird, but simply brushing it aside by saying she didn't understand the connotations it had and won't do it again, would have made it blow over.  Her reaction likely won't cost her any support from her base, but it sure won't endear the GOP to Jews.  Also, her taking down the gunsight graphic while claiming it was innocuous and a bunch of surveyor symbols, is pathetic.  Had she stood her ground and said that she likes emphatic images and they had no effect on Loughner, she could have made a better impression.  She's trying to claim that the images had no effect while backpedaling furiously from them.  It's making her look like a weenie - exactly the opposite of the image she wants - just when Obama got to deliver a speech and look Presidential.

I don't think it was the best move.  Saying that it wasn't the intent, but accepting the responsibility for a misconception would have done better.  No points with Me on this one.

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7. Maybe I'm out of line here, but I'm pissed off that the Congresspeople and Senators are starting to introduce legislation aimed at protecting themselves from attacks like this.  What about the rest of us who also have to worry about random violence?  If they want to introduce legislation to make themselves safer, I want it to apply to me as well.

I get them wanting to protect themselves.  I'd have been happier if they were pushing 'protect children caught in political crossfire with bullets' legislation.




rulemylife -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/14/2011 4:45:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I had to Google it.   I don't really follow Palin,  or mainstream TV.  So- I miss alot of the nut show.    Most of it is nothing but a distraction.



Yeah, much better to listen to Alex.

Who could ever accuse him of being nuts?






pahunkboy -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/14/2011 5:44:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I had to Google it.   I don't really follow Palin,  or mainstream TV.  So- I miss alot of the nut show.    Most of it is nothing but a distraction.



Yeah, much better to listen to Alex.

Who could ever accuse him of being nuts?





Would you like a blue ribbon for this post?




Marc2b -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/14/2011 7:42:11 AM)

quote:

1. I would seriously welcome less anger, less violent imagery, and less rancor in our national speech. That said, I expect to see a new age of civility dawn, and last a few weeks.


A few weeks? You’re an optimist!

quote:

2. Loughner was not driven to violence by the antagonistic tenor of speech. If he was, it was random, and he could just as easily have been set off by reading the ingredients of Froot Loops. He's crazy as a loon, and there is NO WAY to change the national environment so that nuts like him don't get provoked.


Spot on! All the laws, rules, regulations, educational programs, etc, etc, etc, in the world can in no way stop tragedies like this from occurring. It can reduce them (but at what price?), but it can not stop them.

quote:

3. One of the few valid concerns about how to stop him - how do we deal with the mentally ill? He exhibited classic symptoms and nothing was done. Reports were made, he was kicked out of school, he lost jobs and friends... all the symptoms, Nothing happened.


Few, if any, people are in a position to see the “big picture” about a person. They may know a thing or two about an “odd” person but not enough to see them as a potential assassin. Many years ago I drove cab for a living. More than once I would get somebody who would rant and rave about the government (actually, I had ranters and ravers about every topic imaginable). Once I picked up a ranter at the Buffalo Airport and took him to his home in Pendelton. He struck me as odd, but no more or less odd than dozens I’ve encountered before. I forgot about him… until some three years later when I saw his picture in the paper and first learned his name: Timothy McVeigh.

quote:

4. The other valid concern - should there have been some way he was prevented from buying a gun? The system as it is in place currently let him buy a gun and a clip with 30 shots in it. While I don't like the idea of gun control, if there was some clear designation he could have as a mentally unstable man, he should not have had the ability to buy a gun. He probably would have stolen one from someone, but no point making it easy for him.


I agree it would be helpful if gun dealers had a “do not sell” list of criminals and crazy people (don’t we have such laws already?) but, like you said, it won’t do any good if society doesn’t know that you’re crazy. Also, such a list does no good in the hands of unscrupulous gun dealers. More gun laws will not help. We cannot legislate our way to utopia.

quote:

5. Not many seem to understand the "blood libel" term and its visceral connotation to Jews. I still hold that Palin used it without any idea what she was saying. It's analogous to me speaking to a group and casually mentioning lynching while I did so, with no reason to do so. It would freak out all the blacks and make them wonder why I would do that.


I agree that Palin didn’t know the full meaning of the term but that’s no excuse. Even if her education was not as good as mine (I first learned about the full meaning of the term in a ninth grade English class while studying Shakespeare) it’s still no excuse. She is in a profession where words are weapons and she needs to increase her vocabulary. No one can prevent their words from being twisted by those determined to do so for political reasons but there’s no sense in making it easy for them.

quote:

6. Palin screwed up. Using the term was just weird, but simply brushing it aside by saying she didn't understand the connotations it had and won't do it again, would have made it blow over. Her reaction likely won't cost her any support from her base, but it sure won't endear the GOP to Jews. Also, her taking down the gunsight graphic while claiming it was innocuous and a bunch of surveyor symbols, is pathetic. Had she stood her ground and said that she likes emphatic images and they had no effect on Loughner, she could have made a better impression. She's trying to claim that the images had no effect while backpedaling furiously from them. It's making her look like a weenie - exactly the opposite of the image she wants - just when Obama got to deliver a speech and look Presidential.


Palin is a neophyte and a useful idiot (and she doesn’t even realize it) for those who seek to manipulate the rabies wing of the GOP. Overall I still like John McCain but I will never forgive him for inflicting her (and her delusions of grandeur) upon the rest of us.

quote:

7. Maybe I'm out of line here, but I'm pissed off that the Congresspeople and Senators are starting to introduce legislation aimed at protecting themselves from attacks like this. What about the rest of us who also have to worry about random violence? If they want to introduce legislation to make themselves safer, I want it to apply to me as well.


Our noble leaders are much more important than mere peons like you and me. They need protection so they can safely pass gun laws to disarm the rest of us.




Rule -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/14/2011 7:57:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
Once I picked up a ranter at the Buffalo Airport and took him to his home in Pendelton. He struck me as odd, but no more or less odd than dozens I’ve encountered before. I forgot about him… until some three years later when I saw his picture in the paper and first learned his name: Timothy McVeigh.

Oh? How exceptional! So he was in ranting mode, eh, dissembling to be a lunatic. And he fooled you. He was so good at it that you looked him in the eye and you never suspected that he was taking you for a ride? Did he perchance indicate a preference for a certain part of the world, a place to retire to for example? If you ever met him again, do you think that you would be able to recognize him despite him being disguised?




Moonhead -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/14/2011 8:09:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
Palin is a neophyte and a useful idiot (and she doesn’t even realize it) for those who seek to manipulate the rabies wing of the GOP. Overall I still like John McCain but I will never forgive him for inflicting her (and her delusions of grandeur) upon the rest of us.

That wasn't McCain's decision though, was it? It's pretty well documented by now that he wanted Leiberman as his running mate, and it's hard to shake the feeling that he pretty much gave up in disgust as soon as he was stuck with carribou Barbie by his party.




hlen5 -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/14/2011 8:10:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

....................Palin is a neophyte and a useful idiot (and she doesn’t even realize it) for those who seek to manipulate the rabies wing of the GOP. Overall I still like John McCain but I will never forgive him for inflicting her (and her delusions of grandeur) upon the rest of us.

Agreed. I toyed with the idea of voting for McCain during the campaign until he chose her. After the election, I was even more glad I had not when I had read the book "Game Change" about the principal candidates in the 2008 election.

quote:

7. Maybe I'm out of line here, but I'm pissed off that the Congresspeople and Senators are starting to introduce legislation aimed at protecting themselves from attacks like this. What about the rest of us who also have to worry about random violence? If they want to introduce legislation to make themselves safer, I want it to apply to me as well.
............................

It sounds like there is already preferential treatment since the shooter is being charged with "assassination of a public official (or something like that)". Attempted murder would be applied for we the great unwashed.

........................




rulemylife -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/14/2011 8:25:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
Once I picked up a ranter at the Buffalo Airport and took him to his home in Pendelton. He struck me as odd, but no more or less odd than dozens I’ve encountered before. I forgot about him… until some three years later when I saw his picture in the paper and first learned his name: Timothy McVeigh.

Oh? How exceptional! So he was in ranting mode, eh, dissembling to be a lunatic. And he fooled you. He was so good at it that you looked him in the eye and you never suspected that he was taking you for a ride? Did he perchance indicate a preference for a certain part of the world, a place to retire to for example? If you ever met him again, do you think that you would be able to recognize him despite him being disguised?



Do you think he might ever meet him again?






Marc2b -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/14/2011 8:48:23 AM)

quote:

Oh? How exceptional! So he was in ranting mode, eh, dissembling to be a lunatic. And he fooled you. He was so good at it that you looked him in the eye and you never suspected that he was taking you for a ride? Did he perchance indicate a preference for a certain part of the world, a place to retire to for example? If you ever met him again, do you think that you would be able to recognize him despite him being disguised?


First of all, I was the cab driver, so it was me taking him for a ride. If by fooled me you mean: did I recognize him as a potential mass murder? Well obviously I didn't. He didn't strike me as any different as any other person bitching about their particular gripes. I had plenty of passangers rant about abortion too but (as far as I know) none of them have shot any abortion doctors. So I feel no particular guilt about not recognizing him as a potential mass murderert, he obviously fooled a lot of people.

Since he is dead, I seriously doubt I will ever meet him again.




Marc2b -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/14/2011 8:54:49 AM)

quote:

That wasn't McCain's decision though, was it? It's pretty well documented by now that he wanted Leiberman as his running mate, and it's hard to shake the feeling that he pretty much gave up in disgust as soon as he was stuck with carribou Barbie by his party.


It was his campaign. If he didn't have the balls to run it his way maybe were better off without him (considering the alternative though, that's hard to say for sure).





Marc2b -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/14/2011 8:58:10 AM)

quote:

It sounds like there is already preferential treatment since the shooter is being charged with "assassination of a public official (or something like that)". Attempted murder would be applied for we the great unwashed.


How does the old question go: How important must you be before you are assasinated instead of murdered?




Rule -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/14/2011 9:08:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
If by fooled me you mean: did I recognize him as a potential mass murder?

No, I meant "Did you get no vibe at all that he was acting that he was a lunatic?"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
Since he is dead, I seriously doubt I will ever meet him again.

Um, dead people usually leave a corpse behind. He did not, so evidence that he is indeed dead is lacking.




Arpig -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/14/2011 9:25:56 AM)

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Um, dead people usually leave a corpse behind. He did not, so evidence that he is indeed dead is lacking.
Oh good GOD!!! He was executed - there were witnesses!




tazzygirl -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/14/2011 9:59:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I had to Google it.   I don't really follow Palin,  or mainstream TV.  So- I miss alot of the nut show.    Most of it is nothing but a distraction.



Yeah, much better to listen to Alex.

Who could ever accuse him of being nuts?





Would you like a blue ribbon for this post?



I want an appology for the racist post you made on another thread, pig.

How is that for a fucking blue ribbon.




DomKen -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/14/2011 10:26:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

That wasn't McCain's decision though, was it? It's pretty well documented by now that he wanted Leiberman as his running mate, and it's hard to shake the feeling that he pretty much gave up in disgust as soon as he was stuck with carribou Barbie by his party.


It was his campaign. If he didn't have the balls to run it his way maybe were better off without him (considering the alternative though, that's hard to say for sure).



If he had chosen Lieberman he would have lost the far right but likely made a good run at the much larger group of independents that are center right. Palin pretty definitely cost him support amongst suburban women who are usually the key demographic in national campaigns.

However if he had chosen Lieberman as part of a Unity ticket would someone have run as an independent from the right?




popeye1250 -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/14/2011 10:48:03 AM)

You can have civil political discourse and paranoid schitzophrenics like that guy in Az are *still* going to fly off the handle. It's not "political discourse" that sets people like that off it's *mental illness!* He really DID listen to "the voices."
I doubt that people like him can even tell what political discourse is.
And to have "smart" people stand up and say that if we'd just "temper the political discourse" that things like this might not happen is beyond rediculous, I don't know where they get that shit! (ergo proptor hoc?)
And this meatball got into a community college! Oh, the irony!
Does that mean that if he could only have staved off the mental illness for six or eight years he could have done another mass murder in the future as a,.....lawyer?




Marc2b -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/14/2011 11:02:53 AM)

quote:

No, I meant "Did you get no vibe at all that he was acting that he was a lunatic?"


The only vibe I got off of him was that he was your average nutcase bitching about his particular bug-a-boo, much like you see everywhere... including here on CM.

quote:

Um, dead people usually leave a corpse behind. He did not, so evidence that he is indeed dead is lacking.


Okay, now you heading off into conspiracy theory nutcase territory. He did leave a corpse behind which was cremated, the ashes scattered in an undisclosed location. The man is dead.




Marc2b -> RE: Amid all the hysteria... (1/14/2011 11:09:58 AM)

quote:

If he had chosen Lieberman he would have lost the far right but likely made a good run at the much larger group of independents that are center right. Palin pretty definitely cost him support amongst suburban women who are usually the key demographic in national campaigns.

However if he had chosen Lieberman as part of a Unity ticket would someone have run as an independent from the right?


The far right (as opposed to the right) is not a large or as powerful as some think and they have shown a tendency to stay home and pout on election day if they don't get their way. Whatever votes he would have lost amongst the far right would have been offset by picking up votes from the more moderate branches of the GOP (many of whom voted for Obama simply because they were pissed at the GOPs drift to the far right. Either way, I don't think it would have mattered much. The economy was in the tank and people always blame a poor economy on the party in power.





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