A Gentleman, submissive or not... (Full Version)

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SexyBossyBBW -> A Gentleman, submissive or not... (1/16/2011 6:09:53 AM)

Training that shouldn't be required, made me thing of this.

I read this article, and it was familiar to me, because my father was fairly involved in teaching his uhms basically to follow the golden rule, but in addition, some of what would be considered behavior becoming a gentleman towards a lady (sub or not). 

For myself, these basics, are a starting point, in the dating/get to know phase.    It changes significantly, when MS/ and D/s are engaged.   There may be some role reversal, and different expectations, when she becomes the authority in his life, that which individualizes every relationship.   I would imagine, for some, there are additional D/s, and M/s Protocols expected the slave would learn/know.

For myself, while not big on protocol, I would be satisfied, if on initial meetings, the prospective did follow these rules (loosely at least).    Not everyone has this information, in my experience, or perhaps they feel they don't need it.   To me, these things are what open doors (no pun intended), and make a lady take notice initially.

What say you?   Not for everyone, but I like it, as a starting point, before D/s is established..
http://www.askmen.com/money/successful_100/117_success.html.
quote:

Etiquette Of A Gentleman: Part I [/link] "People, like diamonds, have a basic market value, but it is only after they have been polished that the world will pay their real value."   - William Thourlby

[link=http://www.askmen.com/money/successful/41_success.html]Part I
and Part II of the "Etiquette Of A Gentleman" series outlined how important good manners and gentlemanly behavior are to your professional image and social life.

Whatever the business or personal situation, your most valuable commodity is yourself. Practice all your best marketing techniques to attract interest and create a positive and lasting impression.
Courtesy & ConsiderationDon't "kiss and tell"
Discretion, honor and integrity are of paramount importance in developing and maintaining your reputation as a gentleman. Details of your love life should remain private. Similarly, if a colleague has too much to drink at a party, be discreet. Never break a confidence and don't participate in unkind gossip.

Interrupt politely

Etiquette dictates that you should never interrupt, but that's not always practical. Interjecting your comments while someone else is speaking is definitely impolite, unless there is an emergency, or other good and valid reason. If you must interrupt or leave a conversational group, be sure to say, "excuse me" or "I beg your pardon." Being polite means treating other people's situations, opinions and feelings with respect.

Be prudently punctual

It's important to be respectful of people's time. Arrive on time for meetings, business functions and social events. If a meeting is dragging on later in the day than planned, a gent will ask if there are any time conflicts. A true gentleman also recognizes when it's time to leave a party.
Suave CommunicationPractice good etiquette
Being courteous and respectful extends to how you handle your oral and written communications. Letters and voicemail messages should show that you are well-mannered and professional. In addition, practice e-mail Netiquette and cell phone etiquette.

Be a gracious guest

Thank the host at a social or business function. At a company party, always seek out and thank the most senior management in attendance, plus your own boss and the party organizers.
Thank others

Send handwritten thank-you notes for any gifts you receive, whether they are from suppliers or clients, or even your great-aunt Martha. Thank your server at lunch, the doorman at your building and your colleague who brings in donuts. Recognizing other people's thoughtfulness demonstrates your good breeding.

Don't be politically incorrect

The difference between a gentleman and a boor is class. Show you have it. Avoid off-color jokes and gossip. A few cheap laughs at someone else's expense will tarnish your image, both socially and professionally.

Practice small talk

Whether you're at a wedding reception or business conference, how you make conversation will boost the impression of your refinement. Charming conversationalists mentally rehearse small talk on a variety of topics, avoiding religion, politics and sex. A gentleman listens attentively, making eye contact, showing interest and graciously drawing other people into a conversation.
GallantryCarry a handkerchief
Plan ahead. Have a clean handkerchief in your pocket, especially when you attend a funeral. It's also a great idea to have a hanky handy for a lady friend to dry raindrops or tears.

Share your umbrella

It's very gallant to offer your umbrella to a lady. On a chilly evening or if the air conditioning is high, your wife or date might appreciate the loan of your suit jacket and others will notice your thoughtfulness. However, this gesture may be viewed as patronizing in a business setting, so don't do it for a female colleague unless hypothermia is imminent.

Cough thoughtfully

If you're overcome by a fit of coughing or sneezing, excuse yourself and leave the meeting or dinner table for a few minutes. Return quietly and apologize again as you take your seat.

Pay the bill discreetly

When you invite someone for lunch or dinner, accept the bill discreetly and without fanfare. When you're the guest, you may offer to pay your share or to buy the wine but it is ungentlemanly to argue about who will pay the tab.

Civility & Social SkillsMaintain eye contact
At a party, maintain eye contact with whomever you are speaking with. You may be the most well-mannered man, but if someone feels you're scanning the room for someone more important to talk to, your image will be shattered.

Make introductions

Show your good manners when introducing people by telling them more than each other's names. "Hal, I'd like you to meet Phil Brown, he's a pilot with Delta. Phil, this is Hal Black. He recently returned from the Gulf with the military." Many people have difficulty remembering names, and will appreciate your thoughtful manners if you say "George, you remember Alan, don't you?"

Engage people

Be gracious. Make conversation with those on the sidelines, particularly at business functions. Your good breeding and kindness will be remembered. Invite people to become involved, whether it's in a group discussion at a conference, a baseball game at the company picnic or a conga line at a wedding reception.

Follow the host's lead

At a business dinner or dinner party, don't sit until your host does, and don't begin eating until they have lifted their fork. Wait to drink your wine until your host proposes a toast or takes a sip. Do not smoke until everyone has finished, and then only smoke if it is clearly permitted and once you have asked permission of your tablemates.
Table MannersNever speak with food in your mouth
No one wants to see what you're chewing or listen to you talk with a mouthful of food. If you're asked something and your mouth is full, signal your apologies and, if your dining partners are refined, they will patiently wait until you're able to reply. Unless there's a valid reason to wolf down your food and bolt from the table, eat slowly and converse with your tablemates.

Don't reach across someone

When dining with others, don't reach over; politely ask someone to pass the bread. When they do, take the tray or basket and offer the passer a piece of bread before taking one. If the bread is in front of you, pass it to the person beside you and, if they are knowledgeable about good etiquette, they will offer it to you before taking their own.

Put down your knife

Unless you're expecting an attack from a pack of marauding wild animals, put down your knife after cutting your food and before eating it. It demonstrates good table manners, slows down the process of eating and allows you more time to showcase your talents as a scintillating conversationalist.
Women & Chivalry Open the door
In a business context, opening the door for women can be a contentious issue, so don't make it too obvious. If there are men and women in the group, hold the door for everyone. In a social context, a gentleman will always hold the door for a lady. In addition, go around to open the car door and wait there until she is seated.

Retrieve dropped items

When someone drops something, pick it up and hand it back, whether it's a glove, a file folder or a twenty-dollar bill. Make sure you bend at the knees, not from the waist.

Walk beside a lady on the stairs

Never walk behind a woman on the stairway, especially if she's wearing a miniskirt. Walk beside her or slightly ahead of her on the stairs. When exiting a subway station in a crush of people, a gentleman will avert his eyes from the thighs ahead of him. The same principle applies if you are walking on the streets; don't follow any woman you don't know too closely.

Walk on the outside of a sidewalk

This allows your lady to be farther from the traffic. This way, if someone is going to be splashed, it will be you, not her. I know, I know... but that's the price to pay if you want to be a gentleman.
uncommon courtesyAs author John Bridges says, being a gentleman requires "a little logic, a bit of forethought and a great deal of consideration for others."

Incorporate these tips[/link][link=http://www.askmen.com/money/successful_60/66_success.html], into your daily routine. Think of it as a personal marketing program to showcase your finest features. Polish your professional and social image, and become recognized and remembered for being a chivalrous, gallant and refined gentleman.




BonesFromAsh -> RE: A Gentleman, submissive or not... (1/16/2011 6:25:39 AM)

You may find this thread of interest Forced Masculinity, Take 2

Manners and proper etiquette never go out of style. What does, in some cases, is the teaching and use of those skills. A sad thing, to be sure.





SexyBossyBBW -> RE: A Gentleman, submissive or not... (1/16/2011 6:42:53 AM)

That was a good thread, thanks.   It wasn't as simple as I'd like.  
I guess I'd like to know, if the dominant women in general, expect this kind of behavior, or do you want them to write to you on their knees, perhaps typing with one hand.   <M




BonesFromAsh -> RE: A Gentleman, submissive or not... (1/16/2011 7:15:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyBossyBBW

That was a good thread, thanks.   It wasn't as simple as I'd like.  
I guess I'd like to know, if the dominant women in general, expect this kind of behavior, or do you want them to write to you on their knees, perhaps typing with one hand.   <M



You're welcome...LadyAngelika managed to start some interesting threads, for sure. The links in her original post were very similar to the one you posted which is what caused the deja vu moment.

I don't identify as a domme, but I do appreciate manners and gentlemanly/lady-like behavior from people in general.

I was having a conversation with a friend of mine last night and the subject of etiquette classes being given locally came up. He expressed his interest in learning as his upbringing placed little value on these skills. He is making his way back into the corporate world, after a 2 year break and a move to a new city, and is looking forward to the chance to entertain both clients and ladyfriends. Mind you, he has no interest in D/s but is aware of my proclivities.
I offered him some reading suggestions and told him I was always available should he want to practice his skills.

Now, this man was not raised by wolves. I've been out numerous times with him and haven't found his manners to be wanting, generally. I was impressed, however with his interest and understanding that being a gentleman is a positive thing, in both a personal and professional sense. Honestly, how could it be anything but?

I don't believe dominant women (or men, for that matter) are any different in their expectations of a partner that they can take out in public and not be embarrassed by their behavior. One-handed typing calls to mind, for me, a teenage boy who's discovered his first porn site. I don't see how this would be attractive to any woman...dominant or otherwise.





kalikshama -> RE: A Gentleman, submissive or not... (1/16/2011 7:41:05 AM)

I'm currently reading "The Marketplace" and am enjoying Robert's forced masculinization. And Sharon's stable scenes, and...

/goes back to book/





LadyPact -> RE: A Gentleman, submissive or not... (1/16/2011 8:34:48 AM)

I'm a little confused on the follow up question that was given here.  (Why anyone would think the one handed typing thing would be appealing, I don't understand at all.)  If I'm off the mark here, you'll have to point it out.

It's actually My contention that the 'lack of information' theory in the manners department is a weak excuse at best.  Most mature people have had enough exposure in various social situations to know the basics.  Plus, as you've demonstrated in your original, there is plenty of information out there that is easily enough found on the net.  It's not like people are being raised in bad environments, then on top of it never see the way other men treat their women, never go to social engagements, etc.  I guess what I'm saying here is, it's one heck of a reach to suppose that someone never witnessed a man holding a door open for a woman or helping her on with her coat. 

Unless I meet someone in at a leather function, I'm pretty much figuring that I will have to teach those kinds of protocols.  Ones for My own home are just part of the process.  Everyday type stuff, not so much.




thishereboi -> RE: A Gentleman, submissive or not... (1/16/2011 8:48:50 AM)

quote:

Manners and proper etiquette never go out of style.


No, they don't. And I think it applies equally to men and women, whether they are in the lifestyle or not.

The whole post kind of reminds me this, just a lot more words

http://www.peace.ca/kindergarten.htm




Steponme73 -> RE: A Gentleman, submissive or not... (1/16/2011 3:36:13 PM)

I could not have said it better....very good! Now, if we can just get someone to read it and apply it we will be a better world.




SexyBossyBBW -> RE: A Gentleman, submissive or not... (1/17/2011 12:22:14 AM)

Thank you BonesFromAsh for your helpful input; especially being available to your friend, who seems genuinely interested in putting his best foot forward.   You are right about LadyAngelika, having done a similar thread, but you know how it's been frowned upon, to revive old threads.   Apologies, if most here felt the post redundant.

Thanks kalikshama for mentioning "The Marketplace"; maybe I need to pick it up, because it isn't one I've read, and forced masculinization sounds like a fun concept.[;)]    I've never met a man who wanted to be more masculinized (unfortunately/fortunately).

Dear LadyPact:   I'll take responsibility for expressing in a way that seems frequently confusing to you.   I promise to try and do better.
quote:

I'm a little confused on the follow up question that was given here.  (Why anyone would think the one handed typing thing would be appealing, I don't understand at all.)  If I'm off the mark here, you'll have to point it out.
I didn't take my own advice, and maybe was un-lady like with that half joking suggestion.    I say half joking, because some women do online domination, involving nude, on camera play, and yes, it does entail one handed...    As general manners go though, maybe mentioning it here, was in poor taste.

quote:

It's actually My contention that the 'lack of information' theory in the manners department is a weak excuse at best.  Most mature people have had enough exposure in various social situations to know the basics
We will agree that you either haven't met decent people, who for one reason or another, did not get some of the information they needed to be even close to refined; or simply dismiss them as being immature, because it must be their own faults (your prerogative, of course).    I have, and wouldn't call them immature simply because their upbringing was different.

Thanks thishereboi,
quote:

Manners and proper etiquette never go out of style.
Amen!

Thank you Steponme73, for your thoughts.








PeonForHer -> RE: A Gentleman, submissive or not... (1/17/2011 5:42:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

Manners and proper etiquette never go out of style.


No, they don't. And I think it applies equally to men and women, whether they are in the lifestyle or not.


Indeed.  So, to get the ball rolling:

http://www.worldofcrussell.com/2009/05/etiquette-for-the-ladies.html

The last paragraph of advice is crucial, I feel.




LadyPact -> RE: A Gentleman, submissive or not... (1/17/2011 6:48:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyBossyBBW
Dear LadyPact:   I'll take responsibility for expressing in a way that seems frequently confusing to you.   I promise to try and do better.

No, don't take on the entire responsibility for that yourself.  I'm a bit infamous for My brain not firing on all cylinders if it's early morning the day after I've attended a play party.  It might have been a lack of caffeine on My part.  LOL.

quote:

I didn't take my own advice, and maybe was un-lady like with that half joking suggestion.    I say half joking, because some women do online domination, involving nude, on camera play, and yes, it does entail one handed...    As general manners go though, maybe mentioning it here, was in poor taste.

OK, I get where you're coming from now on that one.  While I agree with you that there are a percentage of women doing the online gig, it's a very small minority around here.  Eliminate those who charge a fee for their involvement in the practice an those instances where it's really a man on the other side of the screen and that number drops even further.  At that point, we're talking about the exception, rather than the rule.

quote:

We will agree that you either haven't met decent people, who for one reason or another, did not get some of the information they needed to be even close to refined; or simply dismiss them as being immature, because it must be their own faults (your prerogative, of course).    I have, and wouldn't call them immature simply because their upbringing was different.

By mature, I probably should have said fully grown.  Up to the age of eighteen, it's plausible that some people haven't been raised to have social skills in the manners department in place.  Even then, that's a stretch because that's assuming that there are no friends or extended family who do things differently in their home. 

After the age of eighteen, the world expands for most people and they get a lot more input on social interactions from their peers.  Anything lacking in the way they were raised spills over into their social life, which leads to them taking pointers from the interactions of others.

Off of the top of My head, I'd have to say that you were probably correct.  I can't think of anyone that I have met who would fall into the category of being decent people who had no manners.  Now that My kids are grown, My primary source of interaction with anyone who I would consider younger generation is through lifestyle events.  In that setting, if anything, I find the manners of others to usually be higher than average.

Aside from that, I'm forty-two years old.  The males that are in My age range of compatibility are way, way past that period in life where they just had no exposure to good manners.  On the infinitesimal chance that is their situation, in a social setting, there are at least ten other men in the room where that isn't the case.  I'm going to be dealing with those folks who are attractive to Me and good manners is absolutely a part of that.  If it's lacking in a first interaction, that's not where My time is going to be spent.




BonesFromAsh -> RE: A Gentleman, submissive or not... (1/17/2011 8:26:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Indeed.  So, to get the ball rolling:

http://www.worldofcrussell.com/2009/05/etiquette-for-the-ladies.html

The last paragraph of advice is crucial, I feel.



[sm=Groaner.gif]






allthatjaz -> RE: A Gentleman, submissive or not... (1/17/2011 9:25:44 AM)

Hi SB, I expect the same sort of manners in a female sub as I do in a male sub. Funnily enough fem subs seem to know how to interrupt politely, be prudently punctual, be a gracious guest, Practice small talk, share their umbrella and all the rest, so if a female submissive can do all these things with ease I would expect a male submissive could too. These are social graces that each and every one of us are capable of but we have to desire to do it.
I have always enjoyed female subs because they have the ability to 'woman up'. They know how to show off their feminine side without losing any of the above. Male subs that are attractive to me are the ones that can 'man up' which means all that you mentioned in your initial post but also the ability to show a strong personality, a healthy independent mind and the strength of a man.
My/Our fem sub doesn't behave like a frightened kitten. She behaves like a feminine Princess that only submits to us. She is all woman and I expect a male sub to be 'all man'. If I could of found a male sub of the 'Samson' type, I would of snatched him up in an instant. Sadly theres not many out there.
I never wanted a man who behaved like a wimp. I never want a man who cowered at just the thought of me being a dominant woman but a man who was bold and confident. I wanted a man who I could be inspired to submit to Me alone.




MadameVonne -> RE: A Gentleman, submissive or not... (1/17/2011 9:51:07 AM)

You put it so eloquently! I cannot believe that so many of our thoughts echo each other. No one that I know wants a weak submissive/slave. I want someone with a strong sense of their own identity. Weakness is certainly not sought after.




SexyBossyBBW -> RE: A Gentleman, submissive or not... (1/17/2011 6:46:55 PM)

Well Peon,
I didn't know this was the crowd you ran with! [:-]
http://www.worldofcrussell.com/2009/05/etiquette-for-the-ladies.html 
quote:

Attracting a mate
There are two schools of thought for the NOL here, the Drinkonomics camp would have you believe that it's the norm to turn up at your event with no cash, grab a suitable looking male and entice him into a companionable relationship with a phrase such as "I'll nosh you off if you buy me a fakkin' lager", though the more laid back members of the School of Dancemania will insist that random disinterested motions on the dance floor will do the job just as well with less ... noshing ...

Go with whatever suits your mood, but remember, it's always more effective if gum is being chewed.

Leaving the Event
A proper NOL likes to make as big an impact when she leaves as when she arrives. Try starting a fight or hitting a rival NOL with a broken bottle whilst exchanging words of mutual respect such as "slag" or "whore" to achieve the desired effect - remember: no-one likes a wallflower!

In the event that you've "pulled" it's important to indulge in sexual activities in the lavatories before leaving so you can share your moment of coital bliss with your chums on the way home, and be sure to shout goodbye to your "shag" on the way out, destroying his reputation with his mates as you do.

For the ultimate exit, try vomiting copiously on the pavement outside of the venue, the knowledgeable NOL about town will always try to keep a little in her mouth, just in case an eligible bachelor walks past, after all, there's nothing as romantic as a staggering, lager-soaked, blood stained, vomit-emanating NOL with her knickers in her handbag, is there?


Thank you allthatjaz
quote:

I have always enjoyed female subs because they have the ability to 'woman up'. They know how to show off their feminine side without losing any of the above. Male subs that are attractive to me are the ones that can 'man up' which means all that you mentioned in your initial post but also the ability to show a strong personality, a healthy independent mind and the strength of a man.
My/Our fem sub doesn't behave like a frightened kitten. She behaves like a feminine Princess that only submits to us. She is all woman and I expect a male sub to be 'all man'. If I could of found a male sub of the 'Samson' type, I would of snatched him up in an instant. Sadly theres not many out there.
I agree with manners being important for males and females, and while I have some very well mannered girlfrends, I cannot have more than a platonic friendship with them.

As for a strong submissive gentleman being rare, you're preaching to the choir, but it sure does make for an interesting and fun relationship, when one comes along.    M

Thanks Bones, Ladypact, MadameVone.    M




PeonForHer -> RE: A Gentleman, submissive or not... (1/17/2011 6:51:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyBossyBBW

Well Peon,
I didn't know this was the crowd you ran with! [:-]


It isn't.  It's the crowd I run away from - if I ever make the mistake of being in my local city centre on a Friday or Saturday night. [;)]




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