Fall of Rome linked to climate change

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pahunkboy -> Fall of Rome linked to climate change (1/16/2011 7:51:49 AM)
Fall of Rome linked to climate change

Rule -> RE: Fall of Rome linked to climate change (1/16/2011 9:27:54 AM)
I have known that for decades.

DarkSteven -> RE: Fall of Rome linked to climate change (1/16/2011 10:15:11 AM)
Having lead in the plumbing (which word incidentally is derived from plombo, Latin for lead) didn't help.Nor did them overextending themselves, with a decaying upper class.

Rule -> RE: Fall of Rome linked to climate change (1/16/2011 11:45:01 AM)
The plumbing hypothesis has been shown to be wrong. Nor were they overextending themselves. The problem more likely was that they lost momentum. Nor do I think that the upper class was decaying. One of the errors of the Roman empire was that at the end they moved the focus of their empire to the east, which was very much a dead end. Meanwhile they continued their expansion in the west and in northern Europe in another way: instead of the Roman empire conquering these areas and bringing them civilization, it was the Roman church by way of Sint Patrick's Ireland that propagated Christianity and civilization in these regions. (Not that this was an advanced level of civilization, though. Truly civilized beings would and in most cases will still classify individuals of our species not as human beings, but as animals; they only have to observe the many - and dishonorable - atrocities done by man to other people to be certain of that.)

Hillwilliam -> RE: Fall of Rome linked to climate change (1/16/2011 12:26:40 PM)
The article makes sense as a partial cause. An agrarian society, when good weather is abundant, will prosper and there will be little strife as well fed people tend to not revolt. When growing seasons start getting messed up, the artificially increased population will become more restive. Add to that nomadic tribesmen (Goths, Vandals, etc) who are also hungry and on the move and things will get dicey.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Fall of Rome linked to climate change (1/16/2011 6:08:58 PM)
Now all they need to do is find those CO2 emitting factories that caused it. Maybe they had manufacturing techniques we could learn from.

servantforuse -> RE: Fall of Rome linked to climate change (1/16/2011 7:01:08 PM)
Were there more polar bears then or now ?

Musicmystery -> RE: Fall of Rome linked to climate change (1/16/2011 7:33:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy Now all they need to do is find those CO2 emitting factories that caused it. Maybe they had manufacturing techniques we could learn from. They were secretly building the WMDs, but we've yet to uncover them.

joether -> RE: Fall of Rome linked to climate change (1/16/2011 7:41:38 PM)
The information in the article doesn't talk about Climate Change. As the data (for climate change) takes in to account, normal, observable changes. Anyone with a decent understanding of Climate Change would understand this rather quickly. Conservatives however, can not seem to understand Climate Change to begin with a reasonable discussion. Unless your going to convience me that before 1820, there were 8.6 billion people? Using modern day technology on a daily basis? And to use that technology, would mean having the facilities to power it all? That really is your arguement, and sadly, displays how little you actually understand of the current information, let alone 'Climate Change'. Droughts on a regional level in those times, effected people. Less resources, meant more likelyhood of devistation and war. Many enviroment events were thought of as 'of the Gods'! or, 'God's Wrath'. Earthquakes, volcano explosion, or massive flooding, would create 'times of instability'. I believe that is what the authors are pointing out, rather then, stating this clearly disproves Climate Change. Conservatives seem to latch on to any bit of information, regardless of how flimsy it is, that justifies their morals and judgements. In many ways, Climate Change it is much like the Theory of Evolution debate. Funny that its conservatives whom are against science, and liberals that are for it. Then again, it makes sense, as to perform science, one must be able to be open rather then narrow minded. But, if you think the information presented in this study disproves Climate Change; by all means, present it.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Fall of Rome linked to climate change (1/16/2011 10:55:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether But, if you think the information presented in this study disproves Climate Change; by all means, present it. au contraire. It highlights that there has ALWAYS been climate change, and it doesnt have jackshit to do with CO2

DomKen -> RE: Fall of Rome linked to climate change (1/17/2011 3:00:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: joether But, if you think the information presented in this study disproves Climate Change; by all means, present it. au contraire. It highlights that there has ALWAYS been climate change, and it doesnt have jackshit to do with CO2 And if we change the natural cycle of climate with our release of GHG? or make a warming cycle much worse?

Moonhead -> RE: Fall of Rome linked to climate change (1/17/2011 5:22:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule The plumbing hypothesis has been shown to be wrong. I'm sure you'll have no problem finding a citation from a respectable source to demonstrate this, then. quote: Nor were they overextending themselves. The problem more likely was that they lost momentum. A big part of the reason for the split into two separate entities was that the Empire had grown too large to be administered from a single central seat of authority. How is that not overextension, pray tell? quote: Nor do I think that the upper class was decaying. You're entitled to your opinions, however unsubstantiated they may be. quote: One of the errors of the Roman empire was that at the end they moved the focus of their empire to the east, which was very much a dead end. Not as such, no. The difficulties in administration and the rise of two claimants to the the Imperial throne led to the Roman Empire being partitioned into two territories. Neither was very taken with the other, and several attempts to reunite the two failed. The western and eastern empires both had a focus of their very own. As for the absence of any man made influence on the ecology the Roman empire might have had, perhaps you or Wilbur could explain where the Sahara desert came from, if it wasn't the result of arable land (the form breadbasket of the Roman Empire) being destroyed by overcultivation? That was another factor in the size of the Empire becoming untenable in most accounts. Not AGW (which, as joether points out, the article doesn't mention once), but still an example of human technologies having a significant impact on the environment.

joether -> RE: Fall of Rome linked to climate change (1/17/2011 5:48:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: joether But, if you think the information presented in this study disproves Climate Change; by all means, present it. au contraire. It highlights that there has ALWAYS been climate change, and it doesnt have jackshit to do with CO2 You REALLY have no understanding of the science, do you? Since your a conservative, I am not surprised in the least. Trying to explain science to conservatives, is like trying to explain D&D 3.5 to a bunch of Westboro Baptist Church-goers... I'm not going to explain it to someone who obviously can't google or look it up on wikipedia.org. The evidence is irrefutable, and stacked high. Its been tested constantly, observations have been made around the world. The only ones who don't understand this, are the ignorant and the foolish/lazy.

Rule -> RE: Fall of Rome linked to climate change (1/17/2011 6:02:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether Since your a conservative How scientific is it to politicize a scientific discussion? Isn't science about facts and their interpretation, instead of about what brand of coffee a person drinks?

Hillwilliam -> RE: Fall of Rome linked to climate change (1/17/2011 6:03:24 AM)
A thing that you folks are missing and I alluded to in post #5 is that more agrarian societies (prob Rome's as well) are injured by COOLING than by warming. Shorter growing seasons and less rain are the cause of narrow tree rings. They are also a common cause of crop failures. You folks on the right, if you bothered to even read the article, assumed that it points out warming leading to the downfall and began your arguments about "No excess CO2 or heavy industry during Roman times" when the opposite was much more likely a contributor.

popeye1250 -> RE: Fall of Rome linked to climate change (1/17/2011 9:39:25 AM)
Lol, now they're finding all kinds of reasons to invoke,....."global warming." I can just see Jethro Bodine in a laboratory with a big spyglass staring into a petrie dish; "Granny! Uncle Jed! Them Roman fellers didn't have a chance! It was "global warming" that done 'em in not that Kligula feller!" "Uncle Jed, we needs to go down to the haberdasher's and get me one of them monkey suits, I'll be gettin' me one of them Nobel Peace Prizes fer sure now!" "Mmmmmm, doggy! Jethro, all of that cypherin' down by the cee-ment pond is startin' to pay off now!" "Why next thing you know you and Miss Jane will be a courtin'." http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Q4XTbNoXs6M/SxqNmWLmPpI/AAAAAAAABjc/p_swUfX0JfQ/s400/Jethro.png

Musicmystery -> RE: Fall of Rome linked to climate change (1/17/2011 9:53:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: joether Since your a conservative How scientific is it to politicize a scientific discussion? Isn't science about facts and their interpretation, instead of about what brand of coffee a person drinks? Equally, to pretend the discussion has no political context is hardly addressing the facts and their interpretation, as is dismissing that context as mere beverage preference--what coffee you drink has no impact on policy.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Fall of Rome linked to climate change (1/17/2011 10:35:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: joether But, if you think the information presented in this study disproves Climate Change; by all means, present it. au contraire. It highlights that there has ALWAYS been climate change, and it doesnt have jackshit to do with CO2 And if we change the natural cycle of climate with our release of GHG? or make a warming cycle much worse? Nobody knows, and those who claim they do are proven liars.

Moonhead -> RE: Fall of Rome linked to climate change (1/17/2011 10:35:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: joether Since your a conservative How scientific is it to politicize a scientific discussion? Isn't science about facts and their interpretation, instead of about what brand of coffee a person drinks? There's no politics in my picking apart your pojnts above. Maybe you could try addressing those if you find joe's post offensive?

DomYngBlk -> RE: Fall of Rome linked to climate change (1/17/2011 12:06:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy Fall of Rome linked to climate change Do you ever actually read anything you link?

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