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RE: no limits period - 1/29/2011 2:27:47 AM

lally2

Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
it is possible to be 'no limits' within the criteria of what is agreed upon.

If someone wants to play that they have no limits, I certainly have no problem with what two consenting adults do with their free time (that's the whole basis behind "consensual non-consent"). But if someone is going to post on a public internet message board something like "I have no limits" or "My slave cannot disobey me" they are inviting comment. If they didn't expect comment, they wouldn't post it, they'd just keep it to themselves and go about their business in private.

of course its a discussion board. making a statement without inviting discussion would be ludicrous in the extreme.

but it seems to me that you have the problem with this term purely because of the semantics involved.

what it means to you is youre business, what it means to the person using it is their business - let the discussion continue without suggesting people live in dillusional fantasy. in the end that is the thing that phucks people off most on this repeatedly visited topic.

limits are included in this place as a useful tool to discern if one person is suited to another within the BDSM remit. because i have no desire for a safe word and because i choose not to be in a relationship where i can have control over what my Dominant wishes to do it is my responsibility to myself to ensure that BEFORE the relationship even starts i have worked out what they like against the things i would not entertain ever. scat, kids, animals, being passed around for unsafe sex. they are my limits and i excercise the right to factor those in. it is not disengenuous it is attempting to be as honest as i can in approaching a person and not wasting their time. and if those limits are theyre limits also, they stop being limits set up by an internet engine and become compatibility issues - its really not that difficult to understand. its about matching up.

but we have leapt from a person going into a play situation with people they dont know so well, to a full on relationship. two completely different situations.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to Chulain)

Post #: 221

RE: no limits period - 1/29/2011 2:49:45 AM

TotalDiscipline

Posts: 225
Joined: 5/5/2010
Status: offline

ity is time for a "agree to disagree" ending to this thread..lol

discussing doesn't mean disagreeing...it gets boring. Different people..have different opinions...lets respect that.
Makes you feel better also :P

ohyes..just thinking upload...

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 222

RE: no limits period - 1/29/2011 2:55:01 AM

Ishtarr

Posts: 1130
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline

If you consider this thread to be boring, then don't read it.

Why should I stop doing something I enjoy doing, simple because you find it boring?

We're not bothering anybody even IF we are merely arguing for argument's sake (which I don't agree that we are).

Anybody who doesn't want to follow the debate can simple ignore it and not read it.

I personally feel that there are very few times in life where it's right to "agree to disagree" and this is definitely NOT one of them...

Ishtar

_____________________________

Du blutest für mein Seelenheil
Ein kleiner Schnitt und du wirst geil
Egal, erlaubt ist, was gefällt

Ich tu' dir weh.
Tut mir nicht Leid!
Das tut dir gut.
Hör wie es schreit!

(in reply to TotalDiscipline)

Post #: 223

RE: no limits period - 1/29/2011 2:58:51 AM

TotalDiscipline

Posts: 225
Joined: 5/5/2010
Status: offline

if a person disagrees..all the time...you can write a million posts..he stil will disagree.
It is useless. It is better to accept that there are different opinions.

Unless you want to continue...and WANT to be right.

nice remark though "stop reading" .....I could have said...give up "use your brains and let it rest"

no limits is only interesting for those involved in THAT relation. What others think about it...is not even important.
Every view depends on scope.

< Message edited by TotalDiscipline -- 1/29/2011 3:04:28 AM >

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Post #: 224

RE: no limits period - 1/29/2011 3:10:11 AM

Ishtarr

Posts: 1130
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline

quote:

: TotalDiscipline

because like you

Ik zal het opnieuw vragen, omdat je de eerste keer blijkbaar de vraag niet snapt... waarom zou ik moeten ophouden simpelweg omdat jij het onderwerp saai vind?
Indien je het debat so saai vind, waarom lees je het dan?
Heb je niets beters te doen met je tijd dan saaie debatten te lezen en te zeuren dat ze jou niet interesseren?
Ik ga niet akkoord met het feit dat we niet akkoord gaan, en het is jou zaak niet om ons te komen vertellen wat wij wel en niet zouden moeten doe.

I'll ask again, seeing that you didn't get the question the first time apparently... why do I need to stop simple because you find what we're talking about boring?
If you find it boring, then why are you even bothering to read it and complain?
Don't you have anything better to do than to read topics you find boring and then bitch about it?
I don't agree to disagree, and you have no business coming in here telling us what we should and should not do.

Ishtar

Edited to add, because the post I was responding to was edited while I was writing...

You really think that I don't get that I'm not going to get Chulain to admit that he's wrong?
Dude, I knew that the first time he misused the term "red herring" while trying to accuse me of a logical fallacy... and that was PAGES ago...

If you think that this debate is about convincing Chulain then you have no clue what the debate is about, and you have even LESS reason to but in here and "order" us to stop it.

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 1/29/2011 3:15:39 AM >

_____________________________

Du blutest für mein Seelenheil
Ein kleiner Schnitt und du wirst geil
Egal, erlaubt ist, was gefällt

Ich tu' dir weh.
Tut mir nicht Leid!
Das tut dir gut.
Hör wie es schreit!

(in reply to TotalDiscipline)

Post #: 225

RE: no limits period - 1/29/2011 3:14:25 AM

TotalDiscipline

Posts: 225
Joined: 5/5/2010
Status: offline

No need to write dutch....or peek at my profile..because you disagree with me. ( it doesn't change anything)
You tell me not to give an opinion...but you can have yours. And that is exactly...why it is useless. You never will satisfy every one with an opinion.
So once..you have to let it rest.

That was my point...or better..and advice. ( and also advises can be ignored..ofcourse)

Welcome to the forums..were we all have different opinions.

Please continue..as you wish.

ps. The toppic is far from boring. The ever lasting fight of disagreeing was meant

< Message edited by TotalDiscipline -- 1/29/2011 3:19:02 AM >

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Post #: 226

RE: no limits period - 1/29/2011 3:19:19 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

You could elaborate on that (or not), because your bare assertion adds nothing whatsoever to the discussion. Or was that your goal?

I don't have to elaborate on it speaks for itself, because you have already shown you have little understanding on the phrase 'no limits' as well as a lack of willingness to want to learn just in that sentence alone. The mere fact that you called this a 'discussion' shows a lack of understanding of words. You are not discussing a thing, simply because you are showing no openness to others ideas and have a blinkered idea on a subject that you have no experience of.

That's like a salesman trying to teach how to shoe a horse.

quote:

Istharr boldly challenged me to prove she is not limitless. I did so.

No you did not. Not even a little bit. All you 'proved' was that you had no dominion over her and have no say in the way she thinks, act's or is.

quote:

All I need now is a gratuitous Hitler reference.

Ah so that's what you playing at.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Chulain)

Post #: 227

RE: no limits period - 1/29/2011 3:19:53 AM

Ishtarr

Posts: 1130
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TotalDiscipline

No need to write dutch....or peek at my profile..because you disagree with me. ( it doesn't change anything)
You tell me not to give an opinion...but you can have yours. And that is exactly...why it is useless. You never will satisfy every one with an opinion.
So once..you have to let it rest.

That was my point...or better..and advice. ( and also advises can be ignored..ofcourse)

Welcome to the forums..were we all have different opinions.

Please continue..as you wish.

Why wouldn't I be allowed to peek at your profile?
I peek at everybody's profile that I converse with on the boards.

And I have no problem whatsoever with you expressing an opinion, nor do I have a problem with you giving out advice...

I have a problem with you coming in here and ordering us to stop like we're a bunch of children, because you find it boring, and because you think "it's time to respect that".

If you want to express your opinions, you may want to learn to do it while not using the imperative mood....

_____________________________

Du blutest für mein Seelenheil
Ein kleiner Schnitt und du wirst geil
Egal, erlaubt ist, was gefällt

Ich tu' dir weh.
Tut mir nicht Leid!
Das tut dir gut.
Hör wie es schreit!

(in reply to TotalDiscipline)

Post #: 228

RE: no limits period - 1/29/2011 3:23:51 AM

TotalDiscipline

Posts: 225
Joined: 5/5/2010
Status: offline

quote:

I have a problem with you coming in here

Neah.. I don't tell you anything. You felt adressed, that is the difference.
I said "I am thinking uploud".

I am not new here.....just a different profile. SO it is not..just comming in here..and make a mess of it.
Admit..I might have done that in the past....untill people said.. "dont take it so personal"..lets agree to disagree.
And that makes life much eassier. It doesn't mean to run away., just to accept....that there can be differences in opinion.

< Message edited by TotalDiscipline -- 1/29/2011 3:28:16 AM >

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Post #: 229

RE: no limits period - 1/29/2011 3:25:28 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
It's not inapt seeing that you extended your statements beyond the D/s world when you claimed that "everybody has limits".

Oh, well, let me fix that: "Everyone has limits in a D/s relationship, and D/s relationships are the point of this discussion board, even though it may not be clear to some who think this discussion board is in part devoted to discussions of military service."

Happy?

Not really, seeing as this isn't a strictly Ds forum... doesn't anyone read the blurb these days?

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Chulain)

Post #: 230

RE: no limits period - 1/29/2011 3:29:50 AM

TotalDiscipline

Posts: 225
Joined: 5/5/2010
Status: offline

dark..you call us blurb writers now? lol

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 231

RE: no limits period - 1/29/2011 3:33:33 AM

Ishtarr

Posts: 1130
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TotalDiscipline

quote:

I have a problem with you coming in here

Neah.. I don't tell you anything. You felt adressed, that is the difference.
I said "I am thinking uploud".

I am not new here.....just a different profile. SO it is not..just comming in here..and make a mess of it.
Admit..I might have done that in the past....untill people said.. "dont take it so personal"..lets agree to disagree.
And that makes life much eassier. It doesn't mean to run away., just to accept....that there can be differences in opinion.

Please don't quote me out of context.
I didn't say I have a problem with you "coming in here".
I said I have a problem with you coming in here and ordering me what to do.

I have no idea why you need to point out that you've been here before with other profiles... so have I, but I don't see how that is in any way relevant towards anything...

I've already told you that I don't agree to disagree...
Agreeing to disagree -except in very rare cases- is a slave's morality in my book and I personally see no reason to engage in behavior like that.

_____________________________

Du blutest für mein Seelenheil
Ein kleiner Schnitt und du wirst geil
Egal, erlaubt ist, was gefällt

Ich tu' dir weh.
Tut mir nicht Leid!
Das tut dir gut.
Hör wie es schreit!

(in reply to TotalDiscipline)

Post #: 232

RE: no limits period - 1/29/2011 3:38:43 AM

TotalDiscipline

Posts: 225
Joined: 5/5/2010
Status: offline

Why not tell us you are always right.
Because..that is what you want.

oh yes.

quote:

"in my book"

guess that book causes it. Because there are more books..on the same topic ;)

I let it rest now...I saw again...what I talked about.

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Post #: 233

RE: no limits period - 1/29/2011 3:45:55 AM

Ishtarr

Posts: 1130
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TotalDiscipline

Why not tell us you are always right.
Because..that is what you want.

oh yes.
quote:

"in my book"

guess that book causes it. Because there are more books..on the same topic ;)

I let it rest now...I saw again...what I talked about.

I don't believe that I am always right... I believe that in a debate in most cases SOMEBODY is right.
I choose to debate until I'm either proven right, or am proven wrong... except in those cases where debates are strictly about opinions like personal preferences where there is no right and wrong answer.

I have no problems with admitting if I'm shown that that's the case, and I've demonstrated that in this very topic more than once.

"In my book" was in the context I used it an idiomatic expression, and wasn't meant to refer to a literal book.

However, seeing that you apparently took it literal, I can actually quote you the literal book... it's one you should be familiar with, seeing that you claim to own a kajira.

quote:

The morality of Earth, from the Gorean point of view, is a morality which would be viewed as more appropriate to slaves than free men. It would be seen in terms of the envy and resentment of inferiors for their superiors. It lays great stress on equalities and being humble and being pleasant and avoiding friction and being ingratiating and small. It is a morality in the best interest of slaves, who would be only too eager to be regarded as the equals of others. We are all the same. That is the hope of slaves; that is what it is in their interest to convince others of. The Gorean morality on the other hand is more one of inequalities, based on the assumption that individuals are not the same, but quite different in many ways. It might be said to be, though this is oversimple, a morality of masters. Guilt is almost unknown in Gorean morality, though shame and anger are not. Many Earth moralities encourage resignation and accommodation; Gorean morality is bent more toward conquest and defiance; many Earth moralities encourage tenderness, pity and gentleness, sweetness; Gorean morality encourages honor, courage, hardness and strength. To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, Why so hard? To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, Why so soft?

~ Marauders of Gor

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 1/29/2011 3:47:24 AM >

_____________________________

Du blutest für mein Seelenheil
Ein kleiner Schnitt und du wirst geil
Egal, erlaubt ist, was gefällt

Ich tu' dir weh.
Tut mir nicht Leid!
Das tut dir gut.
Hör wie es schreit!

(in reply to TotalDiscipline)

Post #: 234

RE: no limits period - 1/29/2011 5:00:42 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

fr

What I see as the real debate here is whether or not someone can override an instinct but in the end of the day, when I am tied up on the table, gagged, blindfolded and unable to move, limits/safewords become absolutely meaningless and all I have is the trust built over several years that the Man Unit won't decide that I would look really cute with a peg leg so gets the old chain saw out.

The legal argument holds no water either. Robbing banks is illegal .. yet, people rob banks so whether or not something is illegal has no bearing on whether or not something can actually happen. Slavery is illegal so there are no slaves is akin to saying that bank robbery is illegal so there are no bank robbers. Rather silly to make such a claim.

FT made the statement that death is a limit.. yet, FT *is* going to die, so how can death be a limit when it *is* absolutely going to happen? Death is not a limit for anyone and so anything less than death seems kind of trivial in comparison.

The argument of instinct.. that the survivial instinct will outweigh other factors - it's already been proven that humans can make a conscience decision and override instinct. (The Secret Service guys stepping in front of Heads of State to take a bullet for example, or the mother who pushes her child out of the way of an oncoming bus and takes the hit instead.)

Will all humans make the choice to take the bullet or get hit by the bus? No. Of course, not.. but some will.. and some will do other things that the vast majority will find ill- advised, destructive or just plain crazy.. and yet, that shit still happens.

What mostly happens in these sorts of discussions is we get the "what if" scenarios.. What if your Master decides he wants to cut off your leg with a chain saw.. and my answer to that is.. What do you do when you are tied up, gagged and unable to stop such a thing from happening?

You can trust in your partner or you can stock up on peg legs. There are close to 7 billion people on this planet and I would be hard pressed to attribute one single factor to every person in existance including making an assumption that every single one of them have limits. At any given time I may be forced by circumstance into choosing the lessor of two evils.. and if the lessor evil violates some pre-determined arbitrary limit which I have sent in place.. that's my bad. So much easier, and so much more honest to determine my preferences, state those then hope for the best, work expeditiously towards that end by engaging in relationships with trusted partners and say, empathically.. that I have no limits but there sure are a whole lot of things which I *hope* don't ever come to pass.

Call me crazy.. or, you know.. gimp.. whatever. ::chuckles::

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Post #: 235

RE: no limits period - 1/29/2011 5:30:08 AM

xssve

Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline

Peeker!

I think it's a very interesting debate, albeit, nobody will remember and it will pop up again in Three months, but it's the sort of question that will only pop up in a BDSM forum.

Consent and limits are at the very heart of wiiwd, we're like those early explorers trying to find the edge of the world without falling off, only for them, there was no edge, for us, there is a line, somewhere - the subjective line we all decide for ourselves, where the objective line is very often becomes a point of law, so it is very much, a serious question that "society", and we as adults and members of it, are obligated to consider.

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Post #: 236

RE: no limits period - 1/29/2011 7:21:01 AM

Chulain

Posts: 283
Joined: 1/27/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
of course its a discussion board. making a statement without inviting discussion would be ludicrous in the extreme.

but it seems to me that you have the problem with this term purely because of the semantics involved.

what it means to you is youre business, what it means to the person using it is their business - let the discussion continue without suggesting people live in dillusional fantasy. in the end that is the thing that phucks people off most on this repeatedly visited topic.

The meaning of the phrase "no limits" is not open to subjective interpretation. Either someone has limits, or they have no limits.

The rest of the discussion, whether or not people who claim to have no limits actually have no limits has been mostly put to rest as well. Those who claim to have no limits actually have "no limits, except for these here limits." Look at the OP as an example: the scene was to have "no limits." Oh, other than scat and illegal stuff.

It's nothing to do with my opinion or how I feel or whatever. Again, if people want to play in private they have no limits, party on. If they want to claim here they have no limits, they, not I, have opened the can of worms. Sure, I don't have to comment, but I'm going to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
If you consider this thread to be boring, then don't read it. Why should I stop doing something I enjoy doing, simple because you find it boring? We're not bothering anybody even IF we are merely arguing for argument's sake (which I don't agree that we are).

Gah, forced to agree with Istharr. My eyes are bleeding!

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
I think it's a very interesting debate, albeit, nobody will remember and it will pop up again in Three months, but it's the sort of question that will only pop up in a BDSM forum.

Yes, it's like going into a Blade Runner discussion forum and stating "Detective Deckard is (or is not) a Replicant."

< Message edited by Chulain -- 1/29/2011 7:25:04 AM >

(in reply to lally2)

Post #: 237

RE: no limits period - 1/29/2011 9:18:20 AM

IceDemeter

Posts: 84
Status: offline

Fast reply ~~

Perhaps the discussion is strictly a matter of semantics and timing. The semantics being whether you choose to go with the literal definition of limits or a general BDSM definition, and the timing being whether the person speaking is in or not in an existing relationship.

It is true that everyone has demonstratable limits: physical limits (lose "x" amount of blood and anyone will bleed out and die), mental limits (after "x" amount of abuse the brain resorts to insanity in self-protection), and emotional limits (again, after "x" amount of abuse, the emotions simply shut down).

It is true that almost everyone will act in accordance with the limits set by their society and their perception of how to survive sucessfully within that society (not going naked to the grocery store, not displaying a kink in front of children, etc).

I perceive it as true that almost everyone has SET limits for themselves for physical/mental/emotional activity which they use to determine compatibility with a potential partner.

I perceive it as true that some find a relationship in which they feel safe enough to abandon their adherence to the limits which they set for themselves prior to that relationship, and leave the setting of limits within their relationship to their dominant partner.

Speaking from the perspective of the general BDSM definition of limits, I perceive that these last are correct that they, as an individual, are "no-limits" because they have set none for themselves. They will still adhere to the limits imposed by their dominant partner and by the society in which they live, but they have imposed no limits themselves.

Perhaps it would be a less argumentative position if the label were to be "no-personally-set-limits"...

(in reply to Chulain)

Post #: 238

RE: no limits period - 1/29/2011 9:43:22 AM

Chulain

Posts: 283
Joined: 1/27/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IceDemeter
Perhaps the discussion is strictly a matter of semantics and timing. The semantics being whether you choose to go with the literal definition of limits or a general BDSM definition, and the timing being whether the person speaking is in or not in an existing relationship.

The thing is, some people don't bother to stop and think about what it means when they say "I have no limits." If they mean "I have no limits other than the following," that's one thing.

quote:

Speaking from the perspective of the general BDSM definition of limits, I perceive that these last are correct that they, as an individual, are "no-limits" because they have set none for themselves. They will still adhere to the limits imposed by their dominant partner and by the society in which they live, but they have imposed no limits themselves.

They have perhaps set no limits on themselves within the realm of what they have considered they will likely encounter in a D/s interaction. But again, once someone claims to have "no limits," period, I am fully prepared to demonstrate that they, in fact, do have limits. Just not things they have thought of before. And it does not necessarily have to be "Having your legs sawed off with a rusty butter knife." Although if someone truly has no limits, then even that would be kosher, from a personal if not legal standpoint.

(in reply to IceDemeter)

Post #: 239

RE: no limits period - 1/29/2011 10:12:23 AM

MaxsGirl

Posts: 355
Joined: 12/2/2010
From: The Arctic Circle
Status: offline

Just a quick note. I did not "abandon" the discussion. I have this little thing called a job that keeps me away from my computer screen for long hours at a time. Not that I have much interest in continuing the argument, so it's clearly unwillable on both sides. Circular logic gives me a headache, and I have no futher interest in arguing against it.

_____________________________

Property of rubbrdsir

Collared Fox and
Future Thru-Hiker!

(in reply to Chulain)

Post #: 240

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