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RE: no limits period - 1/28/2011 8:15:40 AM

xssve

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Texas, being as it is in the forefront of social change, as it is, it's still illegal to sell sex toys there, however,

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RE: no limits period - 1/28/2011 8:28:59 AM

Marc2b

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quote:

I would be angry with myself that I'd been too stupid and blind to see things he had issue with, or too stubborn to listen and care about what he needed me to know in order to fix things.

C is a methodical thinker, and takes his time making serious decisions. If he suddenly decided one day that he was leaving, I'd try to urge him to get help if I thought he was having an emotional or mental problem that I couldn't 'fix' myself.

But would you try to physically restrain him as he was walking out the door?

Ahh, never mind.

For everybody: This is (I hope) my last word on the subject (until the next time).

It is all a matter of perspectives. One of my perspectives is that I am leery of absolutes (unless we are talking about vodka). Answers to anything are rarely found in absolutes. Whenever anyone uses an absolute term (which I am far from immune to myself) I tend to immediately look for the exceptions. When it comes to someone saying “I want no limits” or “we have a no limits relationship,” two things come to mind:

In the former: are you sure you want to jump off the cliff into that water? Sure, it looks warm and deep but their just might be some jagged rocks underneath that will leave you floating there with several broken bones thinking: maybe this wasn’t such a good idea after all.

In the latter: I recognize it as a matter of deep trust and love. I’ve no objections to that. I know that feeling very well myself. But it is that deep trust and love that is imposing limits. When I have my slave tied to a tree (God! Spring can’t come fast enough!)… well, I’m sure many here understand that it is hard to put into words the feelings of gratitude I have that she would have such trust, love – that she is confident that I will give her the domination and pain (proof of the domination) that she craves without having to worry that I will go psycho on her. I think people consider it an affront to hear others say that they are not a no limits relationship because it is a case of outsiders presuming to know their own private world. Fair enough. But some of us just can’t help but think: perhaps you are a no limits owner/slave relationship to each other but just bear in mind that you are living in a society that has its own laws and notions.

Since this has been bandied back and forth with no chance of consensus possible I will leave by saying that I hope everyone finds happiness and fulfillment in their relationship. That, ultimately, is what it is all about.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 1/28/2011 8:29:28 AM >

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RE: no limits period - 1/28/2011 8:40:55 AM

SomethingCatchy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

Fast reply to no one in particular:

Why are you upset if people claim they have limits? As long as you are not part of their relationship, what is the big deal?

Seems odd to me to keep belaboring the point when many have already stated they feel that in their relationship there are no limits.

I think people can define their own relationship without opinions from people not in the relationship with them.

There are people in this word that need to feel that they are right all the time, and when someone challenges their ego, that's when they set their teeth into the 'discussion' and refuse to let go.

I accepted a long time ago, as a child, that my reality isn't yours, or his, or theirs. I'm happy with that fact, because it means I never have to work doubly hard to fit into what's 'normal' or what others think I should be doing.

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Post #: 163

RE: no limits period - 1/28/2011 8:48:56 AM

SomethingCatchy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

I would be angry with myself that I'd been too stupid and blind to see things he had issue with, or too stubborn to listen and care about what he needed me to know in order to fix things.

C is a methodical thinker, and takes his time making serious decisions. If he suddenly decided one day that he was leaving, I'd try to urge him to get help if I thought he was having an emotional or mental problem that I couldn't 'fix' myself.

But would you try to physically restrain him as he was walking out the door?

You must not understand what I mean.

It is my job, as the person I am (emotional and sensitive) to be aware of every single persons needs. It's exhausting, and just because I'm aware does not mean that I care or will do anything about it.
If it's my job to be aware of what C needs from me, and I remained unaware or worse - blatantly ignored him when he tried to tell me, then there's a huge problem with ME.

It is my belief that when a person suddenly changes their behaviors for no real reason and starts making strange decisions, when just a little while ago they were perfectly happy, that indicates there may be a mental problem with them and as a friend and lover, it's my job to urge them to get help.

Why on gods green earth would I ever prevent someone from escaping me when there's A: a huge problem with me for failing to do my job or B: a mental problem with them when what they really need is professional help and friendly guidance (I believe a person with a mental disorder should be excused from the responsibility of a relationship so that they can focus on themselves).

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Post #: 164

RE: no limits period - 1/28/2011 11:14:48 AM

Chulain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
it is possible to be 'no limits' within the criteria of what is agreed upon.

You mean like "I have no limits, aside from these here agreed-upon limits."

OK, I guess, but then it's rather disingenuous to say "I have no limits.." That's like saying "I've had nothing to eat today, aside from 2 pancakes, hash browns, toast, pieces of bacon and 3 scrambled eggs."

What people generally mean when they say they have no limits is "I have no limits within what is accepted by most D/s folks as acceptable D/s behavior, and within the limitations I expect my dominant/owner to adhere to. Aside from scat. Scat is off limits. But otherwise, I have no limits." And to reiterate again, anyone who says "I truly have no limits" or "I'm a non-consensual slave" or "My slave is incapable of disobeying me" is lying either him- or herself, or to everyone else.

If someone wants to play that they have no limits, I certainly have no problem with what two consenting adults do with their free time (that's the whole basis behind "consensual non-consent"). But if someone is going to post on a public internet message board something like "I have no limits" or "My slave cannot disobey me" they are inviting comment. If they didn't expect comment, they wouldn't post it, they'd just keep it to themselves and go about their business in private.

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RE: no limits period - 1/28/2011 11:15:35 AM

Ishtarr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
Seeing that you've yet to demonstrate that MaxsGirl has limits towards her owner, lets start with her.

Are you going to answer for Maxsgirl?

Why would I need to answer for MaxsGirl?

Your claim wasn't that you could demonstrate that anybody willing to cooperate with you has limits.

Nor was your claim, in fact, that you could demonstrate that anybody in particular has limits.... Your claim was that you can demonstrate that EVERYBODY has limits.

So fine... demonstrate that... demonstrate that EVERYBODY has limits.

In fact, demonstrate that *I* have limits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
It's possible to IN PRACTICE have no-limits, in the U.S.

No, because as you seem to have agreed, "no limits" is tantamount to "non-consensual." You seem to agree that on-consensual is legally impossible in the U.S. The limits of "no limits" is whatever the sub/slave agrees to. And as I stated, I will always find someone's limits, even if it's an illegal activity. But, to reiterate, as Marc2b stated, "no limits" is absolutist. Either you have no limits or you have limits.

Yes, you've stated that you can demonstrate that everybody has limits, that's hardly a proven statement though, seeing that so far, you've failed to back up this claim.

So are you saying that seeing that engaging in non-consensual behavior is illegal in the U.S., it's therefore impossible?

Your claim that "no limits" is an absolutism is absolute laughable, not because it's not true, but because you are arguing an absolutism yourself here.

You're claiming that "it's absolutely impossible for a human being to have no limits"... that sounds pretty absolutist to me...

The funny thing is that I'm NOT arguing an absolutism. My argument is: "human nature is too diverse and complex to make an absolute statement statement that's true for every single human being, therefore, it's possible that there exists at least one human being that has no limits."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
This is because it's possible to IN PRACTICE enter into a situation where you are unable to exercise your rights, in the U.S. (Like agreeing to be locked in a basement.)

No, because you can always withdraw consent to be locked in the basement. Without the force of law to back up the owner, the owner has no remedy other than what the slave is willing to accept.

Are you really claiming that it's physically impossible to restrain a human being in a basement?

You don't need the law to illegally lock somebody up in a basement, and make sure they are unable to escape, and unable to take advantage of the fact that "the law" is on their side.

It doesn't matter in practice, whether or not the force of the law backs up the owner. If they can make sure that the submissive cannot get in contact with the law, and the law is unaware, then the person locked up is unable to exercise their rights.

If you consent to being locked in a basement, knowing you wont be released under any circumstances, and nobody else knows you are there... you just consented to a situation where you're unable to exercise your rights.

You can withdraw consent all you want.... if the dominant doesn't let you leave, it doesn't mean shit at that point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
Therefore it's possible to IN PRACTICE be a no-limits slave, in the U.S. (Because you're able to get yourself into situations where you no longer can revoke consent.)

Nope. If you can't revoke consent, there was no consent in the first place.

You're able to consent to being killed.
You're able to consent to being locked up in somebody's basement and not be let out.
You're able to consent to having a lobotomy performed on you.

All of which would make it impossible to revoke consent after the deed.

Now for the part of my post that you -AGAIN- conveniently let out...

Demonstrate to me how under your OWN definition, a relationship is no longer a relationship if we can judge the participants to be criminal/victim, from either a moral or a legal point of view.

Demonstrate to me how the fact that something is illegal makes that it is impossible in practice.

Demonstrate to me how it's impossible to, in practice, consent to be the victim of a crime.

Demonstrate to me why cult-like brainwashing techniques, and cult leaders are not relevant to this debate.

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RE: no limits period - 1/28/2011 11:31:43 AM

Chulain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
Why would I need to answer for MaxsGirl?

Is she going to answer for herself? She seems to have abandoned the discussion.

quote:

So fine... demonstrate that... demonstrate that EVERYBODY has limits. In fact, demonstrate that *I* have limits.

Your dom demands that you forgo skin-to-skin contact with another human being until he allows otherwise. Yes or no?

[quoteAre you really claiming that it's physically impossible to restrain a human being in a basement?
No, I'm claiming that's illegal, therefore cannot be the product of consent.

If you are willing to break the law, of course you can coerce just about anyone into doing just about anything. But that kind of violates the whole "safe, sane and consensual" motto of many in the D/s community. My point is, short of breaking the law, there is nothing an owner can do to his or her slave unless the slave willingly acquiesces. We have seen claims from some along the lines of "If my slave ran away, I have the right to recapture him or her and then severely punish him or her." Well I ask such a person, where do they get the authority to do that? Not from the law, that's for sure. So their only lawful remedy is "What the slave will allow." And if the slave is not willing to allow him- or herself to be recaptured, the owner has absolutely no legal recourse. No amount of slave contracts, tattoos, bar codes, registrations, collaring ceremonies, brands or vows can change that. Any agreement between slave and owner is breakable by either party at any time. And of course this gets down to the basic tenet of D/s, something else so many have trouble with, and that is that the sub/slave is the ultimate authority of what happens during a scene, or a romantic relationship. Because unless the owner/dom is willing to break the law, the sub/slave is always free to say "No, we're not going to do that." It's not a question of whether a sub/slave thinks he or she ever would say no, the issue is that he or she can.

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RE: no limits period - 1/28/2011 11:55:30 AM

Ishtarr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
Why would I need to answer for MaxsGirl?

Is she going to answer for herself? She seems to have abandoned the discussion.

So what? You claim that you can demonstrate that everybody has limits, no specifications given...

So go ahead and do just that...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
So fine... demonstrate that... demonstrate that EVERYBODY has limits. In fact, demonstrate that *I* have limits.

Your dom demands that you forgo skin-to-skin contact with another human being until he allows otherwise. Yes or no?

Euhm sweetie... I don't have a dom.
Nobody with whom I have a personal relationship has the authority of telling me what I can and can't do, nobody ever will....

But just the same... demonstrate that I have limits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
Are you really claiming that it's physically impossible to restrain a human being in a basement?

No, I'm claiming that's illegal, therefore cannot be the product of consent.

If you are willing to break the law, of course you can coerce just about anyone into doing just about anything. But that kind of violates the whole "safe, sane and consensual" motto of many in the D/s community. My point is, short of breaking the law, there is nothing an owner can do to his or her slave unless the slave willingly acquiesces. We have seen claims from some along the lines of "If my slave ran away, I have the right to recapture him or her and then severely punish him or her." Well I ask such a person, where do they get the authority to do that? Not from the law, that's for sure. So their only lawful remedy is "What the slave will allow." And if the slave is not willing to allow him- or herself to be recaptured, the owner has absolutely no legal recourse. No amount of slave contracts, tattoos, bar codes, registrations, collaring ceremonies, brands or vows can change that. Any agreement between slave and owner is breakable by either party at any time. And of course this gets down to the basic tenet of D/s, something else so many have trouble with, and that is that the sub/slave is the ultimate authority of what happens during a scene, or a romantic relationship. Because unless the owner/dom is willing to break the law, the sub/slave is always free to say "No, we're not going to do that." It's not a question of whether a sub/slave thinks he or she ever would say no, the issue is that he or she can.

I agree with the bolded part.
The "if my slave ran away, I'd get her back" line of thinking is absolutely ridiculous.
As long as a submissive has the ability to say "no" she is the one in control over her own limits, seeing that -if- she'd change her mind there is nothing the dominant could do about that.
As long a submissive is able to revoke consent, the power of the dominant ONLY extends to what she allows him to have.

So far we are in full agreement.

But now lets get down to what this debate is REALLY about, instead of getting off topic.

HOW does the fact that the submissive is in control over how far she goes PROOF that she necessarily HAS limits?

How does the fact that she CAN stop what's happening, proof that the WILL stop it at some point.
All you've done is demonstrate that in all D/s relationships that are exposed to the public, the submissive always has the ability to stop the relationship.
That does NOT proof, however, that she necessarily WILL stop the relationship at some point, and that she has limits.

Personally... I don't care about Safe Sane and Consensual... and there are others here who don't either.
So the fact that many in the BDSM community follow SSC doesn't mean that all do, and therefore proofs nothing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain
My point is, short of breaking the law, there is nothing an owner can do to his or her slave unless the slave willingly acquiesces. We have seen claims from some

You haven't seen those claims from me.
And I have never disagreed with you that those claims are absolutely false.

What I am disagreeing with is the fact that you claim that it's IMPOSSIBLE for a human being to not have limits.
That's an absolutism, and I don't like absolutisms.

The fact is: it IS possible to break the law.
It's therefore possible to get yourself into a situation where your entire bolded quote no longer applies; a situation where the submissive is NO longer able to control the situation by revoking consent.

You're arguing a mute point.
As long as you're going to keep claiming that you can make a definitive statement that applies to EVERY single human being on the planet, you're going to be wrong.

In fact, you've ALREADY admitted that it's possible for a human being to not have limits, it's just that you claim that those human beings are legally insane.

If it's possible for somebody who is legally insane to not have limits, then it's possible for a human being to not have limits... unless you're going to argue that people who are legally insane aren't human beings.

Seriously, step back an LOOK at what you are claiming.
Are you really suggesting that you can make a definitive statement about EVER SINGLE HUMAN on the planet?

I don't even disagree with you for the most part, I've admitted time and time again that you are partially right about certain things, like submissives being in control over their own limits as long as they have the ability to revoke consent.

It's your blank absolutistic statement that I have a problem with.
There is no possible way that you can demonstrate that everybody has limits... and the longer you keep trying to twist and turn in empty statements to denial that fact, the more you're making yourself look like an idiot who is stuck in meaningless dogma and trying to be right for the sake of being right.

Ishtar

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 1/28/2011 11:56:52 AM >

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Du blutest für mein Seelenheil
Ein kleiner Schnitt und du wirst geil
Egal, erlaubt ist, was gefällt

Ich tu' dir weh.
Tut mir nicht Leid!
Das tut dir gut.
Hör wie es schreit!

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RE: no limits period - 1/28/2011 12:17:07 PM

Chulain

Posts: 283
Joined: 1/27/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
Euhm sweetie... I don't have a dom.
Nobody with whom I have a personal relationship has the authority of telling me what I can and can't do, nobody ever will....

Um, honey lamb, I was speaking hypothetically.

quote:

But just the same... demonstrate that I have limits.

I asked a hypothetical question. You can give me a hypothetical answer. Or ignore me.

quote:

But now lets get down to what this debate is REALLY about, instead of getting off topic. HOW does the fact that the submissive is in control over how far she goes PROOF that she necessarily HAS limits?

That has to do with consensual non-consent. This discussion has ranged from "limitlessness" to "consensual non-consent." "No limits" (truly, actually for reals no limits) is tantamount to non-consensual. But actually I an only demonstrate that someone has limits by asking them questions.

quote:

How does the fact that she CAN stop what's happening, proof that the WILL stop it at some point.
All you've done is demonstrate that in all D/s relationships that are exposed to the public, the submissive always has the ability to stop the relationship.
That does NOT proof, however, that she necessarily WILL stop the relationship at some point, and that she has limits.

I don't have to prove what someone will do, all I have to show is what someone can do. No one can prove what will or will not happen in the future

quote:

Personally... I don't care about Safe Sane and Consensual... and there are others here who don't either.
So the fact that many in the BDSM community follow SSC doesn't mean that all do, and therefore proofs nothing.

So you can advocate for Dangerous, Insane and Coerced. enjoy the ride.

quote:

You haven't seen those claims from me.

No, and since your name is not "Some," I was not attributing them to you, either.

quote:

What I am disagreeing with is the fact that you claim that it's IMPOSSIBLE for a human being to not have limits.
That's an absolutism, and I don't like absolutisms.

And yet, ironically, "I have no limits" is an absolutism.

quote:

The fact is: it IS possible to break the law.

Which proves nothing other than it's possible to break the law. I don't think we are seriously debating whether or not it's possible to break the law.

quote:

Are you really suggesting that you can make a definitive statement about EVER SINGLE HUMAN on the planet?

No, because there are always people who will fall outside the boundaries I set. There are people who will kill others when ordered to do so, for example. But the examples that come to mind are people like the Manson Family, the members of the Aum cult or the Red Brigade, Jim Jones' followers, David Koresh's followers and such. This discussion board is about D/s and D/s relationships, not deranged gurus.

quote:

There is no possible way that you can demonstrate that everybody has limits.

As long as I get to ask them questions, yes I can. Either that or I can demonstrate that they are mentally disturbed in some way. I think we can safely say that anyone who would release nerve gas in a subway has some issues.

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Post #: 169

RE: no limits period - 1/28/2011 12:58:47 PM

Ishtarr

Posts: 1130
Joined: 4/30/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
But just the same... demonstrate that I have limits.

I asked a hypothetical question. You can give me a hypothetical answer. Or ignore me.

Okay, hypothetical speaking, in the only possible construct where I would ever accept to another person with whom I voluntarily entered into a relationship in which they can decide what I can and can't do, yes I'd obey them if they told me I could no longer have skin contact with other human beings.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
But now lets get down to what this debate is REALLY about, instead of getting off topic. HOW does the fact that the submissive is in control over how far she goes PROOF that she necessarily HAS limits?

That has to do with consensual non-consent. This discussion has ranged from "limitlessness" to "consensual non-consent." "No limits" (truly, actually for reals no limits) is tantamount to non-consensual. But actually I an only demonstrate that someone has limits by asking them questions.

So you can't demonstrate that everybody has limits, because you can't ask everybody questions.
You only claim that you can demonstrate that those people who you can ask question have limits.

That excludes it being everybody...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
How does the fact that she CAN stop what's happening, proof that the WILL stop it at some point.
All you've done is demonstrate that in all D/s relationships that are exposed to the public, the submissive always has the ability to stop the relationship.
That does NOT proof, however, that she necessarily WILL stop the relationship at some point, and that she has limits.

I don't have to prove what someone will do, all I have to show is what someone can do. No one can prove what will or will not happen in the future.

Yet, you've failed to demonstrate it's impossible for a person to actually enter into a situation where they can not longer end the relationship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
Personally... I don't care about Safe Sane and Consensual... and there are others here who don't either.
So the fact that many in the BDSM community follow SSC doesn't mean that all do, and therefore proofs nothing.

So you can advocate for Dangerous, Insane and Coerced. enjoy the ride.

I didn't say I advocate Dangerous, Insane and Coerced.
RACK is probably more accurate (though not completely) to describe how I feel about kink.
Seeing that some of the things I'm interested in are definitely not Safe, like breath-play.
And some other things I'm interested in could possible legally qualify me or the person engaging in them as "legally insane".

Again, this instead really uncommon in the BDSM community.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
You haven't seen those claims from me.

No, and since your name is not "Some," I was not attributing them to you, either.

The why do you bring up something that's off-topic.

Whether or not most submissives are in control of their own action is not what you and I are debating.
We're debating whether or not it's theoretically possible for somebody to not have limits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
What I am disagreeing with is the fact that you claim that it's IMPOSSIBLE for a human being to not have limits.
That's an absolutism, and I don't like absolutisms.

And yet, ironically, "I have no limits" is an absolutism.

Not necessarily, seeing that I've argued from the beginning that the possibility of having no-limits is made within the context of a relationship to a specific other human being. As such, it's perfectly possible to have limits with others, and yet have no limits towards one specific person.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
The fact is: it IS possible to break the law.

Which proves nothing other than it's possible to break the law. I don't think we are seriously debating whether or not it's possible to break the law.

Actually, you've debated on numerous occasions that certain things aren't possible because it's against the law.
Therefore it follows that if the only reason things are impossible is because they are against the law, and it's possible to break the law, the things you claim are impossible CANNOT be impossible because of the reason that they are against the law.

The may be impossible for other reasons, but they are definitely NOT impossible because of the reasons that you are giving... the fact that they are against the law.

If you want to come up with another argument as to why these things are impossible, then go right ahead.
But you're argument that it's impossible to enter into a non-consensual relationship because that's against the law isn't a valid one if it's possible to break the law.

You do know how logical arguments work, I hope?
If you make statements and the statement is proven to be false, the conclusion you draw from that statement is now not proven....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
Are you really suggesting that you can make a definitive statement about EVER SINGLE HUMAN on the planet?

No, because there are always people who will fall outside the boundaries I set. There are people who will kill others when ordered to do so, for example. But the examples that come to mind are people like the Manson Family, the members of the Aum cult or the Red Brigade, Jim Jones' followers, David Koresh's followers and such. This discussion board is about D/s and D/s relationships, not deranged gurus.

So you agree with me then?
It is POSSIBLE that there exists a human being who doesn't have limits in their relationship with another human being?

And I don't know why you're dragging in guru's at this point.
Explain to me how Bernd Brandes had limits in the context of his relationship with Armin Meiwes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
There is no possible way that you can demonstrate that everybody has limits.

As long as I get to ask them questions, yes I can. Either that or I can demonstrate that they are mentally disturbed in some way. I think we can safely say that anyone who would release nerve gas in a subway has some issues.

I don't see what somebody releasing nerve gas in a subway has to do with this debate... please stay on topic, would you?

And I never made the claim that somebody who didn't have limits in their relationship towards another human being is NOT considered legally mentally disturbed.
In fact, I've already said that anybody who doesn't have limits in their relationship towards another human being would most likely be considered to be legally mentally disturbed.

However, considering that you just said that you can demonstrate that anybody who you'd find to have no limits IS mentally disturbed, you just again admitted that it's possible for a human being to not have limits....

Funny, that's been my position all along...

You do remember that this whole thing started because you definitively TOLD MaxsGirl that what she was saying isn't true, right?
Yet, now you're saying that it's possible that it IS true, just that it would mean she is mentally disturbed.

I'm curious, do you have any proof whatsoever that MaxsGirl is NOT mentally disturbed?
And if not, how can you possible have any proof that what she was saying isn't true?

Ishtar

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 1/28/2011 1:01:15 PM >

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Post #: 170

RE: no limits period - 1/28/2011 2:59:17 PM

Chulain

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You realize I just got you to admit to one of your limits:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
Nobody with whom I have a personal relationship has the authority of telling me what I can and can't do, nobody ever will. [my emphasis]

Do I even need to bother addressing any of your other points?

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Post #: 171

RE: no limits period - 1/28/2011 3:53:55 PM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

You realize I just got you to admit to one of your limits:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
Nobody with whom I have a personal relationship has the authority of telling me what I can and can't do, nobody ever will. [my emphasis]

Do I even need to bother addressing any of your other points?

And there you have it. The reason why you do not understand what you are even trying to talk about.

< Message edited by RCdc -- 1/28/2011 3:54:21 PM >

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RE: no limits period - 1/28/2011 4:11:47 PM

IronBear

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I agree with Max'sgirl, Any slave who has earned my personal collar will find there are no limits.This is because that from the start I lay out my personal limits and in every case I find that a slave's limits are close enough to my own that they are easily absorbed into my limits and thus there are no need for limits other than those I impose especially if others join us for play. There has been the rare case in times past where a girl has a hard limit which clashes with something I enjoy such as needle play and in every case, after discussions we decided to part ways at that early stage. Even then, not every slave in our home would be involved with BDSM but rather be Domestic Staff such as Butler, House Keeper, maid/s & yard man etc. I value these folk far more that BDSM playmates who I could if needs be hire at will.

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Post #: 173

RE: no limits period - 1/28/2011 4:16:08 PM

Chulain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
I agree with Max'sgirl

You sure you wanna ride in that boat?

quote:

Any slave who has earned my personal collar will find there are no limits. This is because that from the start I lay out my personal limits and in every case I find that a slave's limits are close enough to my own

So what you're saying is that your submissive has no limits, other than the limits he or she has.

Gotcha

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc
And there you have it. The reason why you do not understand what you are even trying to talk about.

You could elaborate on that (or not), because your bare assertion adds nothing whatsoever to the discussion. Or was that your goal?

Istharr boldly challenged me to prove she is not limitless. I did so. All I need now is a gratuitous Hitler reference.

< Message edited by Chulain -- 1/28/2011 4:29:23 PM >

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Post #: 174

RE: no limits period - 1/28/2011 5:10:44 PM

IronBear

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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
I agree with Max'sgirl

You sure you wanna ride in that boat?

Surely you are not inferring that I am far to incompetent mentally or psychologically to agree with Max'sgirl's statement? Just because you may disagree does not mean that the rest of must follow your suit. Struth talk about Hitlerisms....

quote:

Any slave who has earned my personal collar will find there are no limits. This is because that from the start I lay out my personal limits and in every case I find that a slave's limits are close enough to my own

So what you're saying is that your submissive has no limits, other than the limits he or she has.

Gotcha

Good I'm glad you "got" that. It is the result of good and open communications at the very start of a potential relationship dynamic rather that being dictated to later which would be unacceptable by me. My sand pit, my rules (included those agreed to), follow them or leave..

< Message edited by IronBear -- 1/28/2011 5:11:23 PM >

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RE: no limits period - 1/28/2011 5:17:11 PM

Ishtarr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

You realize I just got you to admit to one of your limits:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
Nobody with whom I have a personal relationship has the authority of telling me what I can and can't do, nobody ever will. [my emphasis]

Do I even need to bother addressing any of your other points?

So you finally managed to find a way to proof I have limits... awesome for you!

I'm am absolutely STUNNED it took you THIS long to do...
Especially seeing that, like you've now finally caught on to, I had already stated I have limits...

But yet, YOU can demonstrate everybody has limits, right?

And now, you feel you've gotten so much of a victory that you don't need to address any of my other points?

What exactly have you proven by proving that *I* have limits?
I never claimed not to have limits.
And even if I did, I am only ONE person, the fact that *I* have limits proofs absolutely NOTHING about the other 6,8 billion people on the planet.

This discussion wasn't even about MY limits...

This discussion is about the POSSIBILITY that a human being exists that does not have limits.

You haven't proven ANY thing, besides being a totally illogical and having no debate skills whatsoever.

So congratulation, you're just proven that I -one person- have limits....

Now proof to me that the 6,8 billion OHTER people on this planet also ALL have limits...

Start by explaining to me how it is that mentally disturbed people aren't human beings...

Seeing that you apparently feel that it's possible for a mentally disturbed person to not have limits; yet at the same time claim that it's impossible for a human being to not have limits.

Ishtar

quote:

Istharr boldly challenged me to prove she is not limitless. I did so.

Please don't fool yourself sweetie...
I was setting you up to demonstrate how utterly meaningless it is to proof that a single person has limits when you're making statements about the entire human race.

You did exactly what I thought you'd do: run with your victory and act like you've actually proven something.
When all you did was restate a fact I had already admitted, and when your "proof" has no actual bearing in this debate...

No matter how many people you can personally proof to have limits, your sample group will ALWAYS be to small...
Especially seeing that you're making a statement about EVERYBODY, not just "most people" or "the majority".

I find it rather laughable and pathetic that it took you so long as it did to proof that I have limits...

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 1/28/2011 5:25:06 PM >

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Du blutest für mein Seelenheil
Ein kleiner Schnitt und du wirst geil
Egal, erlaubt ist, was gefällt

Ich tu' dir weh.
Tut mir nicht Leid!
Das tut dir gut.
Hör wie es schreit!

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Post #: 176

RE: no limits period - 1/28/2011 5:17:22 PM

Chulain

Posts: 283
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
Good I'm glad you "got" that. It is the result of good and open communications at the very start of a potential relationship dynamic rather that being dictated to later which would be unacceptable by me. My sand pit, my rules (included those agreed to), follow them or leave..

Then exactly what part of Maxsgirl's assertions do you agree with? Seems to me, IIRC, her position is that she has no limits. You are stating your submissive has limits. I'm seeing a fundamental disconnect between your and Maxsgirl's positions.

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Post #: 177

RE: no limits period - 1/28/2011 5:29:00 PM

IronBear

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Your choice as to what you see. After all it is only an opinion and as we all know opinions are like arseholes: Everyone has one but some smell sweeter then others.I just have neither the time nor inclination to enter into a post-mortum with out the poster also being her to add to the mix. You, however are in error in one part. You refer to my subs. I do not deal with subs, never have and do not understand them. I am used to and deal with slaves. There is a difference in my book.

< Message edited by IronBear -- 1/28/2011 5:34:46 PM >

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Post #: 178

RE: no limits period - 1/28/2011 5:35:26 PM

Chulain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
So you finally managed to find a way to proof I have limits... awesome for you!

Pretty cool, eh?

quote:

But yet, YOU can demonstrate everybody has limits, right?

Not by proxy.

I did enjoy this little bit of self-contradictory jiggery pokery by IronBear:

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
Any slave who has earned my personal collar will find there are no limits.This is because that from the start I lay out my personal limits and in every case I find that a slave's limits are close enough to my own

No opinion required. You put it out there in black and white for all to see.

< Message edited by Chulain -- 1/28/2011 5:38:46 PM >

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Post #: 179

RE: no limits period - 1/28/2011 5:41:01 PM

IronBear

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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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