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ORIGINAL: DomKen
As to glueing moths to tree trunks, how else do you propose to take good clear pictures of an organism that is very easily disturbed? And yes the moths do rest on trees in daylight they are nocturnal feeders.

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

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ORIGINAL: DomKen
As to glueing moths to tree trunks, how else do you propose to take good clear pictures of an organism that is very easily disturbed? And yes the moths do rest on trees in daylight they are nocturnal feeders.

That's why there was a natural selection in place to change the balance of the colouring, wasn't it? Pale moths get picked off soot blackened trees and eaten, as do the dark ones on trees with unstained bark...

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ORIGINAL: eihwaz

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ORIGINAL: anthrosub
Like I said before, nothing new.  Science was horribly politicized during the Reagan and GW Bush administrations. (NB: The question of what research to fund is always or often political.  However, science is corrupted when politics or commerce dictate the acceptable findings of scientific research.)

I see. and it wasnt "horribly politicized" during the Carter, Clinton and Obama administrations?

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to eihwaz)

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ORIGINAL: Aylee

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ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

But that aside, the basic mechanism of evolution is beyond doubt, and a working comprehension of the concept is absolutely essential for anyone studying biology. There's no good reason at all for a school district not teaching evolution to its students.

Which basic mechanism?

Genetic drift?
Mutation?
Natural selection?
Gene flow?
Punctuated equilibrium?

You want them to talk about those moths on the tree?  That was proven false.
How about the evolution of the horse?  Oh shit.  They got that one wrong too.

Just how complete would you say our fossil record is? 

Are you going to use that oh-so-lovely "stages of man" poster?

There is really no good reason for a school district to be teaching evolution unless we are talking about an advance placement biology course that can give it at least a week to two week discussion. 

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ORIGINAL: readyfordomina

without God there would be no ethical standards. Religion per se, that is organized religion does not have to be taught, but the idea of right and wrong come from God.

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ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


And there is no good reason for a school district to be teaching arithmetic because they dont understand manifolds and tensors? They shouldnt have drivers ed because they dont know how an engine works or roads are designed? They shouldnt teach home economics because they havent attended the Culinary Institute?

The basics of evolution have quite capably been taught for more than half a century.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

Gradualism does stand up to the fossil record. The problem with most vertabrate sequences is they are far too incomplete to show it. However there are numerous very detailed marine invertabrate sequences that show gradual change over geologic time scales.

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Also there is no reason what so ever to believe that Neandertals did not speak. They lived in communal groups and passed along tool making skills that strongly suggest the ability to communicate abstract ideas.

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Peppered moths are evolution in action, so are all other organisms but the moths are a very visual example. No actual biologist has ever claimed the dark or light morphs appeared when industrial pollution started. What changed was natural selection drove a change in the frequency of the two morphs. When the trees were darkened by soot the dark moths became more common and when the trees lightened up when pollution was controlled the light moths again became predominate.

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As to glueing moths to tree trunks, how else do you propose to take good clear pictures of an organism that is very easily disturbed? And yes the moths do rest on trees in daylight they are nocturnal feeders.

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I have no idea what you are abbling about here.

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No biologist would ever make that claim.

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Evolution should not be the subject of one class in biology it should be part of virtually all biology classes. It is not too complicated for high schoolers specially when it is not being taught by a creationist or using claims made by creationists.

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ORIGINAL: Aylee
So, what is my issue with Darwinism?  Well, he did not know about DNA.

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ORIGINAL: Aylee

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

Gradualism does stand up to the fossil record. The problem with most vertabrate sequences is they are far too incomplete to show it. However there are numerous very detailed marine invertabrate sequences that show gradual change over geologic time scales.

No it doesn't.  What you have is long periods (a million years or so) of stability followed by upheavals. 

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Also there is no reason what so ever to believe that Neandertals did not speak. They lived in communal groups and passed along tool making skills that strongly suggest the ability to communicate abstract ideas.

Wrong.  The way that their skulls are shaped and their jaws do not allow the tongue to reach the soft palate.  Monkeys pass along tool skills also.  So that really does not tell us anything.

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Peppered moths are evolution in action, so are all other organisms but the moths are a very visual example. No actual biologist has ever claimed the dark or light morphs appeared when industrial pollution started. What changed was natural selection drove a change in the frequency of the two morphs. When the trees were darkened by soot the dark moths became more common and when the trees lightened up when pollution was controlled the light moths again became predominate.

I guess you just blew off the part where sometimes the moth population changes BEFORE the tree trunks change. 

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As to glueing moths to tree trunks, how else do you propose to take good clear pictures of an organism that is very easily disturbed? And yes the moths do rest on trees in daylight they are nocturnal feeders.

I have a really big problem with fraud in science.  Faking pictures is a form of fraud.  They have been studying these moths for 150 years.  You are suggesting that the best they can do for a picture is faking one?  Bullshit.  That is bad science.

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I have no idea what you are abbling about here.

Genetics and another experiment that produced results similar to what Darwin saw on the Galapagos Island.  The results?  A phenotype (what it looked like) change occurred within 20 years.  But no change in genotype (what the DNA says). 

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No biologist would ever make that claim.

That is why I said it was crazy and based ONLY on phenotype.

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Evolution should not be the subject of one class in biology it should be part of virtually all biology classes. It is not too complicated for high schoolers specially when it is not being taught by a creationist or using claims made by creationists.

It is not my fault that they are only spending an hour on it. 

You can call me a catastrophist, but I am not a creationist just because I find fault with Darwinism.  Stephan Jay Gould was a very nice man, but I did not and do not agree with everything he said. 

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Now that the panda's thumb has been raised, is it worth pointing out that the fact that they have a radically different (and much less efficient) mechanism than the primates have evolved is often cited as evidence against the idea of intelligent design? Having come up with as elegant and effective a design as the opposable thumb, surely the watchmaker is going to use that for everything, rather than allowing cruder equivalents that don't quite work to evolve independently in non related species?