RE: Another case of not right wing violence (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message


tweakabelle -> RE: Another case of not right wing violence (1/30/2011 1:15:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

tweakabelle, the minutemen have, on several occasions, conducted ARMED patrols of the US Mexico border.

When you consider they have no legal authority to do so, it raises a few questions, the most obvious is, "Just what the hell were they going to do with the weapons?"

This is quite an alien concept for me. Let me see if I have got it right.

They are a private, ideologically driven, extreme right wing, white supremacist, self appointed, armed pseudo-Customs/Immigration/Law Enforcement militia-style outfit usurping/supplementing/supplanting the role of the State .....?

And in this particular instance, some of this self appointed militia formed an alliance with local drug dealers and murdered a family in cold blood, acting as judge, jury and executioners .....?

If I have understood it correctly, why isn't this rabble being prosecuted under racketeering laws?


Edited after eating a bowl of pasta and swearing an oath of omerta




Moonhead -> RE: Another case of not right wing violence (1/30/2011 1:18:33 PM)

Presumably because they're well tooled up and the local feds are scared about a bloodbath if they take any action.
That's what the second amendment is all about, after all...
[;)]




popeye1250 -> RE: Another case of not right wing violence (1/30/2011 2:21:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

JLF, boy, you're batting .1000. The Minutemen have *EVERY* right to be there under "LAWFULL ASSEMBLY."
Also, there wearn't "several occaisions" when they conducted "ARMED patrols", they are *ALWAYS* armed!
And those arms are for defensive purposes not for offensive purposes. And the Border Patrol is glad to have them there, they serve as extra eyes and ears for the Border Patrol in remote areas where the B.P. is stretched too thin.
Where do you get this stuff? From the bottom of a whiskey glass?


Whats defensive about shooting a nine year old in the face ? I am surprised that you and Rich are avoiding the issue raised by the OP



You and JLF are cousins right?




jlf1961 -> RE: Another case of not right wing violence (1/30/2011 2:42:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


JLF, boy, you're batting .1000. The Minutemen have *EVERY* right to be there under "LAWFULL ASSEMBLY."
Also, there wearn't "several occaisions" when they conducted "ARMED patrols", they are *ALWAYS* armed!
And those arms are for defensive purposes not for offensive purposes. And the Border Patrol is glad to have them there, they serve as extra eyes and ears for the Border Patrol in remote areas where the B.P. is stretched too thin.
Where do you get this stuff? From the bottom of a whiskey glass?


Actually, popeye, if you knew anything about law, you would understand that they have no authority to enforce ANY immigration laws, and furthermore there are laws against vigilante groups attempting to take the law into their hands.

The Federal government has denounced the practice for the obvious reasons, and they would not have to be armed if they were not in the situation they are putting themselves in.

So, under the laws dealing with vigilantes, should they get into a fire fight for trying to enforce laws they have no authority to enforce, they would be prosecuted, in state courts if not federal courts.


And considering that one of them is in court for murder, it does not say much for the group.




luckydawg -> RE: Another case of not right wing violence (1/30/2011 2:58:22 PM)

The ignorance is outstanding.


First, there is no single Minuteman group. There are lots of little groups using that term.

They don't enforce (or attempt to enforce) the law, they call the INS when they see suspicous activities, like people sneaking accross the border. It is literally a neighborhood watch group.

and yeah, people carry guns out in the wild. Sorry that scares you so much.

It seems bizzare to me that you feel Americans should not be able to hike/recreate in the border region?


And you are actually trying to tie a single criminal act to all people who believe the border should be more secure....?
Even for you that's a crazy stretch.





luckydawg -> RE: Another case of not right wing violence (1/30/2011 3:07:43 PM)

Or using the same logic....

Police shot and killed a 7 year old child in Detroit.

Where the City is Run By Democrats.

"Politically, the city consistently supports the Democratic Party in state and national elections (local elections are nonpartisan). According to a study released by the Bay Area Center for Voting Research, Detroit is the most liberal large city in America,[115"

And the Police are Unionized....


Hence the Democrats (and thier allies in the Public employee uniouns) are in favor of using grenades on and shooting kids to death? right?


Or is there maybe something wrong with the OP's "reasoning"?




kalikshama -> RE: Another case of not right wing violence (1/30/2011 3:08:50 PM)

http://www.tucsonweekly.com/tucson/murder-in-the-desert/Content?oid=1739974

On June 12, authorities also arrested Shawna Forde, executive director of a border-vigilante outfit called Minuteman American Defense. Prosecutors say Forde was carrying jewelry belonging to Gina Flores at the time of her arrest.

When he was taken into custody, Bush confessed to the murders and implicated both Forde and Gaxiola. Forde was subsequently intercepted as she was leaving the property of Glenn Spencer, founder of another organization called American Border Patrol. With its headquarters on the Mexican line south of Sierra Vista, Spencer's ABP specializes in patrolling the backcountry with high-tech cameras, and then streaming those images on the Internet.

According to authorities, Forde had intended to steal drugs from traffickers to fund her Minuteman group. But even before her arrest, she'd been a hugely controversial character within the border-vigilante movement. For one thing, Gunny Bush was her director of operations. Then there is Forde's involvement in a series of bizarre incidents in Washington state, culminating in claims of being raped by members of the vicious Salvadoran street gang Mara Salvatrucha, better known as MS-13.

The already fractious anti-immigrant movement was further splitting among those who supported her work, and others who thought she was disturbed. William Gheen, founder of the Americans for Legal Immigration PAC, began rebutting Forde's claims on his Web site. Among other things, Gheen questioned the photos that Forde took of herself after the alleged attack. "Why would MS-13 switch from brutal murder and decapitations," he wrote, "to bruises and light scratches that look like they were made with a paper clip?

"If this story is a hoax and some sort of attention grab, then it could prove highly embarrassing to our movement and cause."

Other movement leaders also rushed to distance themselves from the radical activist. But it was too late, says Leonard Zeskind, author of Blood and Politics: The History of the White Nationalist Movement From the Margins to the Mainstream.

According to Zeskind, the Arivaca murders only highlight what many have always feared: The anti-immigrant movement, with its seething rhetoric and paramilitary posturing, would eventually attract people on the violent fringe. As a result, he says, guilt is collectively shared by leaders ranging from Jim Gilchrist of the California-based Minuteman Project, and Arizona's Glenn Spencer, to Chris Simcox, who founded the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps in Tombstone in 2002 and is now running a long-shot campaign to unseat Sen. John McCain.

"They're all up to their alligator ears with Forde," Zeskind says. "And they can't disown what they created. It's everything that everybody thought sending people to the border with guns would wind up doing, which is promoting solutions to social problems through violence. That's really what you see in this Minutemen attack."





flcouple2009 -> RE: Another case of not right wing violence (1/30/2011 3:13:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg
Or is there maybe something wrong with the OP's "reasoning"?


We've known your logic is flawed for ages.




TheHeretic -> RE: Another case of not right wing violence (1/30/2011 3:29:51 PM)

I'm perfectly happy to address you directly, Polite. I'll add arrogant and ignorant to the list. I'm thrilled to hear you are familiar with drug culture and the drug economy in your country, but it makes you no better qualified to talk about it in mine, than I would be to comment on rhyming slang in deals. What might the difference be? Oh yeah. I keep my nose and comments out of yours.

Of course this is an awful crime. I support and encourage the death penalty for those who commit such crimes. It should go without saying, and the fact that people are trying to score points off it only goes to further illustrate how despicable those people are.

If you think that kind of smear is ok, Lucy, no great loss.




popeye1250 -> RE: Another case of not right wing violence (1/30/2011 3:51:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Or using the same logic....

Police shot and killed a 7 year old child in Detroit.

Where the City is Run By Democrats.

"Politically, the city consistently supports the Democratic Party in state and national elections (local elections are nonpartisan). According to a study released by the Bay Area Center for Voting Research, Detroit is the most liberal large city in America,[115"

And the Police are Unionized....


Hence the Democrats (and thier allies in the Public employee uniouns) are in favor of using grenades on and shooting kids to death? right?


Or is there maybe something wrong with the OP's "reasoning"?


Luckydog, good luck, they just walked into class from the short bus.




Lucylastic -> RE: Another case of not right wing violence (1/30/2011 3:53:11 PM)

If you think anything I said was a smear, you really need to get out more, I can come up with much nastier, but I save that for those I have no respect for.
please yourself




Politesub53 -> RE: Another case of not right wing violence (1/30/2011 4:03:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I'm perfectly happy to address you directly, Polite. I'll add arrogant and ignorant to the list. I'm thrilled to hear you are familiar with drug culture and the drug economy in your country, but it makes you no better qualified to talk about it in mine, than I would be to comment on rhyming slang in deals. What might the difference be? Oh yeah. I keep my nose and comments out of yours.

Of course this is an awful crime. I support and encourage the death penalty for those who commit such crimes. It should go without saying, and the fact that people are trying to score points off it only goes to further illustrate how despicable those people are.

If you think that kind of smear is ok, Lucy, no great loss.


I would love to see a proper report that backs up your claim. I havent seen one report, anywhere, that splits drug users along voting trends. As for your ignorance and arrogance, it shows in your posts.





jlf1961 -> RE: Another case of not right wing violence (1/30/2011 4:06:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

The ignorance is outstanding.


First, there is no single Minuteman group. There are lots of little groups using that term.

They don't enforce (or attempt to enforce) the law, they call the INS when they see suspicous activities, like people sneaking accross the border. It is literally a neighborhood watch group.

and yeah, people carry guns out in the wild. Sorry that scares you so much.

It seems bizzare to me that you feel Americans should not be able to hike/recreate in the border region?


And you are actually trying to tie a single criminal act to all people who believe the border should be more secure....?
Even for you that's a crazy stretch.





Luckydawg, they have made it clear they ARE not recreating, they are patrolling the fucking border. They are taking the law into their own hands and would not be in ANY fucking danger if they were not there.

For the record, I hunt, fish and own firearms, INCLUDING a dragonov, an M1A and an AR, but I am not going to go somewhere that is dangerous even for law enforcement, to do so is stupid.

For the record I have been in both the army and worked for the local sheriff's department as a patrol officer, and have learned through bitter experience not to go into a volatile situation without backup.

Armed civilians trying to enforce laws is a mob, not an authorized patrol.




popeye1250 -> RE: Another case of not right wing violence (1/30/2011 4:07:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


JLF, boy, you're batting .1000. The Minutemen have *EVERY* right to be there under "LAWFULL ASSEMBLY."
Also, there wearn't "several occaisions" when they conducted "ARMED patrols", they are *ALWAYS* armed!
And those arms are for defensive purposes not for offensive purposes. And the Border Patrol is glad to have them there, they serve as extra eyes and ears for the Border Patrol in remote areas where the B.P. is stretched too thin.
Where do you get this stuff? From the bottom of a whiskey glass?


Actually, popeye, if you knew anything about law, you would understand that they have no authority to enforce ANY immigration laws, and furthermore there are laws against vigilante groups attempting to take the law into their hands.

The Federal government has denounced the practice for the obvious reasons, and they would not have to be armed if they were not in the situation they are putting themselves in.

So, under the laws dealing with vigilantes, should they get into a fire fight for trying to enforce laws they have no authority to enforce, they would be prosecuted, in state courts if not federal courts.


And considering that one of them is in court for murder, it does not say much for the group.




JLF, WHO FUCKING SAID THEY DID? I don't know who's worse, you or the ignorant Brits in here!
You just made that shit up! It makes no sense whatsoever!
The "FEDERAL GOVERNMENT" doesn't *tell U.S. Citizens what they can or cannot do!" They can "denounce" whatever they want but it doesn't add up to a bucket of warm piss!
The Minutemen are not enforcing the laws there, they *ARE* reporting any illegal alien activity to the *BORDER PATROL* who *ARE* Law Enforcement and are very thankfull for their help! Just like if *YOU* saw someone breaking into your neighbors' house and called the local police!
Where is the "VIGILANTISM" there in assisting law enforcement?
Are you on a little "toot" for yourself? Into the cooking sherry?




Politesub53 -> RE: Another case of not right wing violence (1/30/2011 4:15:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

JLF, WHO FUCKING SAID THEY DID? I don't know who's worse, you or the ignorant Brits in here!
You just made that shit up! It makes no sense whatsoever!
The "FEDERAL GOVERNMENT" doesn't *tell U.S. Citizens what they can or cannot do!"
The Minutemen are not enforcing the laws there, they *ARE* reporting any illegal alien activity to the *BORDER PATROL* who *ARE* Law Enforcement and are very thankfull for their help! Just like if *YOU* saw someone breaking into your neighbors' house and called the local police!
Where is the "VIGILANTISM" there in assisting law enforcement?
Are you on a little "toot" for yourself? Into the cooking sherry?


This ignorant Brit isnt making anything Pops. The OP is about a group of minutemen linking up with drug dealers, who then robbed and killed a family. BTW I cant find a link showing the family were illegal. When this was pointed out you and others seemed to object to the word "minutemen" being used in the link. If you have a problem with that, it isnt my fault but again, I didnt make anything up.




flcouple2009 -> RE: Another case of not right wing violence (1/30/2011 4:39:32 PM)

Polite,

Some of our fellow posters have invested a lot of time and energy in trying to tell all of us that groups like the Tea Party, Minute Men, etc, don't attract these type of people.

They don't want to face things like this.




Politesub53 -> RE: Another case of not right wing violence (1/30/2011 4:45:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

Polite,

Some of our fellow have invested a lot of time and energy in trying to tell all of us that groups like the Tea Party, Minute Men, etc, don't attract these type of people.

They don't want to face things like this.



I fully get that. All groups attract all types of people.




TheHeretic -> RE: Another case of not right wing violence (1/30/2011 5:16:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
I havent seen one report, anywhere, that splits drug users along voting trends.



Might be a bit problematic to conduct. Demographics and voting patterns have already been mentioned. The casualties of drug and gang wars in the US's inner-cities are well established. If somebody wants to play politics with criminal slaughter, they get to own the victims of drive-by shootings.

And yes. Speed is the drug of fascist thugs, whatever they may call themselves.




jlf1961 -> RE: Another case of not right wing violence (1/30/2011 5:25:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


JLF, WHO FUCKING SAID THEY DID? I don't know who's worse, you or the ignorant Brits in here!
You just made that shit up! It makes no sense whatsoever!
The "FEDERAL GOVERNMENT" doesn't *tell U.S. Citizens what they can or cannot do!" They can "denounce" whatever they want but it doesn't add up to a bucket of warm piss!
The Minutemen are not enforcing the laws there, they *ARE* reporting any illegal alien activity to the *BORDER PATROL* who *ARE* Law Enforcement and are very thankfull for their help! Just like if *YOU* saw someone breaking into your neighbors' house and called the local police!
Where is the "VIGILANTISM" there in assisting law enforcement?
Are you on a little "toot" for yourself? Into the cooking sherry?



Popeye, I was in law enforcement for ten fucking years. While we welcome neighborhood watch, we do not, did not welcome armed civilian patrols. There is no way to equate armed patrols with that.





TheHeretic -> RE: Another case of not right wing violence (1/30/2011 5:33:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
The OP is about a group of minutemen linking up with drug dealers,



We certainly have media articles putting that filter on it, but I'm not so sure. Wouldn't it make more sense to assume a druggie got caught up in a movement, rather than the other way around?

Of course, that doesn't offer an opportunity for more filthy smears now does it?





Page: <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.0625