RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in romantic relationships?

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 1/31/2011 1:03:27 PM

DesFIP

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Any time I've suffered from suicidal depression I didn't have the energy or interest to get into a relationship. With that said, there is no reason for anyone to suffer these days. There are all kinds of effective treatments that didn't exist back in the '60's when I had the first episode.

As far as if it's morally right for someone who is less than 100% healthy to get into a relationship, the heart loves where it will. Rhyme and reason do not speak to it. Elderly in nursing homes with only a few years left to them fall in love. Should they be morally condemned for that?

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 1/31/2011 1:20:12 PM

TotallyDude

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quote:

Any time I've suffered from suicidal depression I didn't have the energy or interest to get into a relationship. With that said, there is no reason for anyone to suffer these days. There are all kinds of effective treatments that didn't exist back in the '60's when I had the first episode.

As far as if it's morally right for someone who is less than 100% healthy to get into a relationship, the heart loves where it will. Rhyme and reason do not speak to it. Elderly in nursing homes with only a few years left to them fall in love. Should they be morally condemned for that?

Fair enough but unfortunately even with the advances in treating depression and suicidal impulses (chemical and cognitive therapy based alike) a person who is chronically depressed with frequent suicidal ideation is never really in the clear.

It's true that the heart wants what it wants, and I'm certainly a romantic myself, but I still wonder if it's right for a person who, even if they do everything they ought to do and make the best effort in the world, might end up leaving this planet in perhaps the most destructive way possible for those they love to get entangled in a relationship.

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Post #: 22

RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 1/31/2011 1:43:47 PM

LadyPact

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It occurs to Me that the following post may be TMI for some folks. Read at your own discretion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TotallyDude
Ya I read that thread and my heart bled a little for that little duder. And I like Your response about Al Anon that you've posted here. But at the same time I think being suicidal throws an additional landmine into the equation. If someone has to walk away from a drunk and they start drinking again then yeah, they will very likely feel crushing, black waves of guilt and despair. But if someone walks away from a person with suicidal impulses and shortly thereafter they easy-way-out themselves...Christ. I can't imagine.

Well, nice to meet you.

Not the first time that I've mentioned it on the boards, but the person that I shared My first M/s dynamic with did check himself out a couple of years after the dynamic was over. This was after we had determined our incompatibility and I was already married to My current husband. Guilt, yes, but I had to come to terms with the fact that I was laying blame in a way that wasn't appropriate or deserved. I think just about anyone who has had a person who is or was a part of their life who commits suicide does that. The first thing that hits your head is "why didn't they come to Me?"

Anyway, I suppose I do see the two topics as the same thing. If you've got an active alcoholic in your life, there's a time you might have to get yourself out of the situation. They really don't call alcoholism "slow suicide" for nothing. It's another case where you get to take people down with you to a certain degree. I guess I see the same kind of process happening if you leave someone and they go back to drinking in the same way that I do if you leave someone and they take themselves out.

The thing is, it feels like your fault, but it's really not. Well, at least if you're not willing to be a martyr and stay with a person who really isn't making you happy in some kind of attempt to keep them on the planet.

That's coming from the thought that you're already involved or have been involved. Not even looking at the perspective of it being a new relationship where you are signing yourself up for potential outcomes. Add to that, a number of people out there have certain impressions that have been made on them by friends, co-workers, or family members who have committed suicide so they already know what it feels like to go through that.

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(in reply to TotallyDude)

Post #: 23

RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 1/31/2011 2:00:19 PM

TotallyDude

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quote:

Not the first time that I've mentioned it on the boards, but the person that I shared My first M/s dynamic with did check himself out a couple of years after the dynamic was over. This was after we had determined our incompatibility and I was already married to My current husband. Guilt, yes, but I had to come to terms with the fact that I was laying blame in a way that wasn't appropriate or deserved. I think just about anyone who has had a person who is or was a part of their life who commits suicide does that. The first thing that hits your head is "why didn't they come to Me?"

Thanks for sharing. It is good to know the position You're coming into this question from. I guess this also may be TMI (especially from someone with fewer than 70 posts) but....

About ten years ago (God, time flies) I was a bloody wreck. I'd drunk and snorted myself out of several scholarships, I was suicidally depressed, I was angry at everyone and everything, in short I was not a joy to be around. At the time I was dating a lovely, brilliant girl who, after sticking it out as long as she could, finally had the good sense to walk out. We did what we could to make parting less bitter and painful, and to my limited credit I sucked it up and said the right things and made the right gestures, but we both knew in our hearts that there was a really good chance she was walking out to leave me dead. To my limited credit, I also let her go even though I wanted to try to hang onto her because some part of me understood that a) if I was going to get through this it was going to have to be ME getting through it, nobody else could carry me, and b) if she stuck around it was going to suck the life out of her.

People who have never gone through a spell like that often write it off as attention seeking nonsense or phony baloney angst, and I'm happy for them that they don't know any better. But the fact is, when you get that far down, it's scary. It is like being trapped on a high floor in a burning building. It isn't that you think to yourself "Gosh I'm suddenly not afraid to jump" it's that you have these flames all around you and all at once you jump because it genuinely feels like there is nothing else to do. It took a lot of hard work and a lot of help to get right and get functional again.

Thank God that for me it was just a depressive phase that never came back. Some people live with cycles where they go through this with some frequency and I don't know how they hang on.

A few years ago this girl got in touch with me again. She was honestly surprised I was even still alive. She's had the wonderful life that she deserved and we have a kind of friendship now. She was like You, I guess, one of the people with the mental strength and emotional intelligence to be able to make a decision like that and cope with it.

I do think though that a lot of people don't have that in them. There is a process, true, for dealing with situations like this. But even if a person knows that process, I think it takes a kind of strength and fortitude not everybody possesses to follow through on it.

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Post #: 24

RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 2/1/2011 3:47:44 AM

LadyPact

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You're welcome. I do admit to not bringing the subject up often around here. Only when I honestly think it's going to do some good. It's not exactly My 'happy place'. The number of years don't change that.

I won't lie to you. It was hard. I still have certain resentments about the selfishness of it all. Being human, I can't help that. I'm far from perfect.

Coming from this experience, it's really hard for Me to say that I'd do it again. Knowingly and willingly do it again. That's a lot to ask of somebody, from My perspective.

_____________________________

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to TotallyDude)

Post #: 25

RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 2/1/2011 12:57:32 PM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TotallyDude

Fair enough but unfortunately even with the advances in treating depression and suicidal impulses (chemical and cognitive therapy based alike) a person who is chronically depressed with frequent suicidal ideation is never really in the clear.

There are other treatments as well, an experimental magnetic based therapy is showing excellent results. And for cases where medications do not help, ECT will with much lower side effects than 40 years ago. But the percentage of patients whom medication will not help is very low.

LP, it may help if you realize that severe depression causes brain changes. MRIs of the brains of suicides show these differences. You no more should feel guilty for them having a brain disorder than you should if they died of a brain tumor. It is a disease, like cardiac disease or any other.

Again, is it any more morally right for anyone with any other illness to get into a romantic relationship. If you're middle age with a bypass aren't you risking dying of a massive heart attack just after saying I Do?

For that matter, just crossing the street could have you run down by a bus. How do you think your partner would feel then?

Morality does not enter into this. Life is a risk. Stay home wrapped in cotton wool and you'll die of loneliness and poor physical health. Go out and do things and you'll still die. To live is to be mortal, to be in danger of dying every day.

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 2/1/2011 9:17:12 PM

LadyPact

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Des, I appreciate that. I really do. It's been a number of years and I don't feel that way anymore.

At the time, it was different. Probably no more strange than someone who lived with a person who had a heart attack and second guessed themselves after the event. Couldn't they have made healthier food or encouraged exercise? It's what sympathetic people do. Ask themselves what they could have done. Could they have done more?

Sure, those nagging questions come back every once in a while, but they don't have the same impact now that they did at another time.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 27

RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 2/1/2011 9:22:56 PM

graceadieu

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I don't know about moral or immoral. But if someone's in a deeply and chronically unhealthy emotional state, how can they have a healthy relationship with someone else? It's just not fair to the other person to put them through that. They should get treatment, get their own house in order before inviting someone in.

To be clear, I'm not bashing mentally ill people. I'm bipolar, and had some very serious ongoing problems with depression and mixed states when I was younger, before I learned to manage my illness. I hurt people I cared about, especially a serious girlfriend I had at the time who ended up leaving me. I realized after a while that it wasn't fair to other people to drag them through what I was going through and ended up staying single for about two years while I got my shit together. Also, while I did sometimes want a partner at the time, I didn't really have the emotional energy to reach out and find someone and make a connection. Anyway, it really was for the best.

(in reply to TotallyDude)

Post #: 28

RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 2/1/2011 11:30:00 PM

rosanegra

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I've had my fair share of experience in this realm. Mental illness seems to run rampant in my family. I'm no exception either.. I have recurring bouts of depression, and the occasional fleeting suicidal thought of my own (but since I am *seriously* afraid of dying, to the extent that it causes me *other* emotional issues on a regular basis, I'm fairly confident I could never end my own life). I've also lost a very close friend to suicide. That "could we have done anything more?" question came up a lot, because we knew he was bi-polar, and it was on my college campus so we saw him every day.

The fact is, someone with recurring suicidal thoughts, or depression, or any other mental illness of that nature, is no different that someone with cancer or a heart problem or something else that has the potential to be terminal and cause their life to end "early." Sometimes there are risk factors when we fall in love. I've mentioned a few times in the past, I am married to a soldier... he could die at war. It is something I admit I have worried about.

The person you fall in love with today could get cancer tomorrow and die in less than a year. A person with recurring suicidal thoughts may not act on them before their life ends "naturally."

It is all a gamble. In the end, we all die, and how it happens is really less important than we make it out to be. It is more about how you live the days you have to live. Any one of us could be hit by a car tomorrow, or suffer a sudden heart attack, or any number of other things.

Is it moral for a suicidal person to get into a romantic relationship? As moral as it is for any of us to get into a romantic relationship, in my opinion. Who knows... perhaps that romance will be enough for them to hang on for. Since most people consider suicide immoral, perhaps we should ask ourselves... is it moral for a suicidal person to do anything less than find any way they can to cling to life?

I also happen to think there are so many people entering into relationships they should not, that to be concerned about one particular group is really focusing on too small a part of the bigger picture.

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 2/1/2011 11:53:12 PM

pyroaquatic

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Some curse the rose for having thorns. I'm thankful the thorns have roses.

There are days when I am up and days when I am really down. Really down. Is it right for someone to get sucked into that and have to experience that?

I would say no.

Even with the proper medication I feel like that sometimes.

Is it right for me to write off a relationship because of my roller coaster ride of emotions? Hell no. The potential of finding someone great (including the greatness in myself) in my life is about all I have left.

I would say that it is not right or wrong for a suicidal person to get romantically involved. It may help the person in question.

Like others have said I can get to the point where the world outside of my head does not even exist and those thoughts are dark. Luckily I think of all of those crying people at my funeral mourning the loss of someone with such great potential squandering it with the squeeze of a trigger.

< Message edited by pyroaquatic -- 2/1/2011 11:56:44 PM >

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 2/3/2011 4:06:21 AM

SexyBossyBBW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
I was questioning the actual logistics of it. A suicidal person tends to be inner-focused. Entering into a relationship requires an outer-focus.

This was my thought. It really takes a professional to determine if they're truly suidical, having suicidal ideations, or just bucking for attention. And THEN, are they bucking for attention because they're immature and spoiled or are they crying for help because they truly have psychological issues?

Anything to do with suicide is much better left to the pros.

I agree with both posters above.
It is possible for suicidal people to find knights to get involved with, and I don't necessarily think it immoral... Relationships with suicidal people, carry major baggage; so more power to you, if you can handle that kind of responsibility. I do feel that loneliness is an additional stressor, to someone already on the brink. However, it certainly isn't something I would attempt anymore. M

(in reply to windchymes)

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 2/3/2011 4:19:50 AM

DesFIP

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Pyro, that sounds more like bipolar type II, mixed states, then it does unipolar depression. Demand you be reassessed by someone familiar with it. It's not that common, so many neurologists and psychiatrists will miss it. If this is the problem, then SSRIs are not appropriate treatment.

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 2/20/2011 10:45:55 AM

graceadieu

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Pyro, that sounds more like bipolar type II, mixed states, then it does unipolar depression. Demand you be reassessed by someone familiar with it. It's not that common, so many neurologists and psychiatrists will miss it. If this is the problem, then SSRIs are not appropriate treatment.

I don't know about unfamiliar, but it seems like they use the presence of manic episodes to diagnose bipolar, and II doesn't cause a lot of mania, so it can be easily confused.

But if that's the case for him, yeah, a mood stabilizer will make a world of difference. Not that there won't be rough patches, of course... but I know for me, it means spending a few days feeling irrationally bummed and tired and antisocial, instead of spending a few weeks or months barely able to get out of bed and feeling like something died inside me.

(in reply to DesFIP)

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 2/20/2011 11:49:31 AM

littlewonder

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I have clinical depression that I fight with on a daily basis since as young as I can remember and yes there's the occasional suicidal thoughts but I keep it under control to the best of my abilities through meds, diet and God...and the love of a good man.

Is it right of me to involve myself in a relationship with someone when I have these problems? I don't know. I ask myself that all the time and of him. He's still here though and he helps me through each and every day and reminds me of the positives and reminds me of what I need to do to combat this when I am having a difficult time even doing the simplest of things.

While it may or may not be right, he has the choice to leave whenever he wishes if it becomes too much for him with no hard feelings at all on my end since I would completely understand and wouldn't blame him at all.

I am so very gracious to have him in my life though and thank God everyday for him.

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 2/20/2011 4:38:50 PM

tiggerspoohbear

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I've said it before, I've suffered from clinical depression for years, the last episode has lasted at least 10 yrs. Before that it would come and go with some years in between. I'm on meds now, but they need to be adjusted. I'm still single, and tell any Dom who contacts me, usually within a few msgs that I have this illness, along with many disorders that go with the depression.

I know I do better when I'm with someone because it gives me purpose. Someone who cares for me regardless and is willing to at least give me a fighting chance. I don't make trouble, I'm not manic, I'm definitely not suicidal. I've lost a few friends and relatives that way and can't imagine the pain of leaving my loved ones wondering if they could have done something, or blaming themselves.

Do I want to be like this? O Hell No. Do I live with it everyday? O Hell Yes. I do the best I can and try my best to get the help I know I need. But it's a tough row to hoe when you have to fight a bureaucracy all by yourself. One unwilling to give you the information you request. But I won't give up. I've got a tiny flame inside me that I won't allow to go out. Sometimes it glows brighter than others, but I won't allow it to go out. I know for my own sake I can't.

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RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 2/21/2011 1:52:14 AM

Termyn8or

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FR

I can't believe this. Look, is it suicidal for moral people to get into a relationship ? Makes about as much sense.

Most people who are depressed are isolated somehow, alone. They don't connect with friends and family, or even chosen family sometimes. Even in a crowded room, they are alone sometimes. They dare not share. If they can hook up with someone, I say do it. Someone maybe fills some sort of void in their life. I don't think that's the best solution, but sometimes it's all they have.

I can't go into a hell of alot of detail here because really, I know too many people, and I also like my solitude. Just as a joke now, when the phone rings I yell "WHAT" at the top of my lungs. I kid you not.

But what of Elenor Rigby ?

T^T

(in reply to tiggerspoohbear)

Post #: 36

RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 2/22/2011 12:40:52 PM

DesFIP

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From: Apple County NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

I don't know about unfamiliar, but it seems like they use the presence of manic episodes to diagnose bipolar, and II doesn't cause a lot of mania, so it can be easily confused.

But if that's the case for him, yeah, a mood stabilizer will make a world of difference. Not that there won't be rough patches, of course... but I know for me, it means spending a few days feeling irrationally bummed and tired and antisocial, instead of spending a few weeks or months barely able to get out of bed and feeling like something died inside me.

Absolutely, but the first neurologist my daughter saw couldn't diagnose it, the second who is one of the top pediatric neurologists in the nation said it reminded him of bipolar but she needed to be assessed by an adolescent psychiatrist.

She cycled every five minutes which is very rare and it took six weeks in an adolescent outpatient clinic before the psychiatrist had enough info to identify it from the lit, since she'd never seen a case of ultrahigh cycling before despite the hundreds of kids who pass through there every year.

Anticonvulsants and atypical antipsychotics are what she's on. She graduates college this spring with a degree in psychology and her professors were floored to discover her diagnosis because the text books still say someone like her won't ever graduate high school and won't live past age 20. It's like having the first kid to survive leukemia which used to be fatal for pediatrics and now has an 80% survival rate.

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Post #: 37

RE: Is it moral for suicidal people to get involved in ... - 2/22/2011 12:55:38 PM

sexyred1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TotallyDude

quote:

Possible? Sure. A good idea? No, not in my opinion. I've been fighting a severe depression for over a year now, and the last several months it's gotten to a point where I won't even consider getting involved with anyone. I'm just not going to do that to someone, drag someone into that kind of an emotional and spiritual cesspool. Others in similar circumstances may make different choices for their own reasons, but I'm not going to fuck up someone else's life by letting the poison that pervades mine seep into theirs.

It takes a serious gut check to be able to say "I'll go through this alone before I drag somebody else down with me." The Duder salutes you for that one. I'd like to think that if I were in the same position that's the route I'd go too. I really wanna know what people think about my question, but in my gut the answer I keep coming up with is "No way would it be fair to put somebody through that."

Of course it is not fair, but what in life is? Especially when it comes to people. People tend to be self centered, so even if someone is very much aware of their feelings/impulses, they want they want, when they want it.

I have a friend who was single for years after 2 bad divorces. She did not date for 7 years. Finally, she met a guy online, fell in love and got married to him. They were blissfully happy it seemed.

One day, she could not find him, he would not answer his phone, nothing. Long story short, 6 months after they got married, she found him with a pill bottle in his hands in a motel near where they lived.

She called the ambulance and he was saved. He tried to kill himself. She found out this was his SIXTH ATTEMPT.

She said how could you do this to me, aren't you happy with me? He said, yes, but I am not happy with ME.

It has now been 3 years of marriage and who knows when he might try for the 7th time and be successful.

Should he have gotten involved with her and got married? Who can say.

(in reply to TotallyDude)

Post #: 38

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