UN- Internet- a human "right"? (Full Version)

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pahunkboy -> UN- Internet- a human "right"? (1/31/2011 8:03:21 PM)

http://www.du.edu/korbel/hrhw/volumes/2004/best-2004.pdf

This is a few years old- but timely in light of the Egypt kill switch.



DarkSteven -> RE: UN- Internet- a human "right"? (1/31/2011 8:45:46 PM)

Huh?  I could take food, shelter, and maybe socialization as human rights - but the Internet?

1. There are people in this world that cannot read.  The Net is of no use to them.
2. There are people in this world without electricity.  So how will they access the Net?
3. It makes my life easier but I could live without it.  I just don't wanna.
4. Nobody had this basic human right until fifteen years ago.
5. Numerous captains of industry, etc. don't use the Internet at all.  I bet that Obama is the first President to be able to use it.




pahunkboy -> RE: UN- Internet- a human "right"? (1/31/2011 8:52:15 PM)

Good points.  It is nice- and increasingly needed in a modern world- but not essential to life. 



Real0ne -> RE: UN- Internet- a human "right"? (1/31/2011 9:17:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Huh?  I could take food, shelter, and maybe socialization as human rights - but the Internet?

1. There are people in this world that cannot read.  The Net is of no use to them.
2. There are people in this world without electricity.  So how will they access the Net?
3. It makes my life easier but I could live without it.  I just don't wanna.
4. Nobody had this basic human right until fifteen years ago.
5. Numerous captains of industry, etc. don't use the Internet at all.  I bet that Obama is the first President to be able to use it.




thats a very surprising post from you ds, so I will ask you "what is a right"?



DarkSteven -> RE: UN- Internet- a human "right"? (1/31/2011 9:25:33 PM)

Good question.

Obviously, if I can buy something, I have a right to it (as long as it doesn't break a law or harm others).  I consider the "list of rights" to be things that humans are entitled to, even if they cannot afford them.  In other words, things that must be provided for by welfare if not earned.

Shelter and food are obvious.  Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, freedom of religion, etc., are more internal things than provided ones. 

I took the question as being, what sorts of things are so basic to human life that you would pay for others to have them?  And the Internet doesn't make that list.



popeye1250 -> RE: UN- Internet- a human "right"? (1/31/2011 9:41:05 PM)

Funny, Bill O'Reilly said that Obama could declare martial law and shut down the internet but, that Mexican border remains wide open!



willbeurdaddy -> RE: UN- Internet- a human "right"? (1/31/2011 11:39:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven


Shelter and food are obvious. 


Why are they "obvious"?



Rule -> RE: UN- Internet- a human "right"? (2/1/2011 2:46:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
I took the question as being, what sorts of things are so basic to human life that you would pay for others to have them?  And the Internet doesn't make that list.

Would you pay for education? For job opportunities? For psychological and medical counseling? The Internet provides in such things.



tazzygirl -> RE: UN- Internet- a human "right"? (2/1/2011 2:57:18 AM)

quote:

Would you pay for education?


We already do.

quote:

For job opportunities?


There were no jobs before the internet? Wow, see how much I learn?

quote:

For psychological and medical counseling?


I didnt realize the internet replaced such counseling sessions. Then again, most Drs I know wouldnt diagnose or treat over the internet.

quote:

The Internet provides in such things.


And who provided them before the internet?



ashjor911 -> RE: UN- Internet- a human "right"? (2/1/2011 6:00:39 AM)

Good points DarkSteven
i will add to your list freedom of speach.
tazzygirl nice way to prove your point,
freedom of spach in newspapers & TV & others but in the middel east there is no freedom of speach
for example: (no one in egypt did attack Mobarak in newspapers before).



pahunkboy -> RE: UN- Internet- a human "right"? (2/1/2011 6:05:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven


Shelter and food are obvious. 


Why are they "obvious"?


When the entire food stocks are destroyed due to GMO,  do you have a human right to have food?  Or is it ok- that big corporations are harming the food supply?



Rule -> RE: UN- Internet- a human "right"? (2/1/2011 6:05:48 AM)

I think that internet monopolization by ISPs is not a good thing. ISPs are a weak, vulnerable link. There ought to be a floating internet with every computer being a node instead of lots of computers being hooked up to an ISP.



DarkSteven -> RE: UN- Internet- a human "right"? (2/1/2011 6:06:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
I took the question as being, what sorts of things are so basic to human life that you would pay for others to have them?  And the Internet doesn't make that list.

Would you pay for education? For job opportunities? For psychological and medical counseling? The Internet provides in such things.



I disagree with your post on several grounds.

1. As tazzy stated, these things can be provided without the Internet.
2. Education, as tazzy said, is provided by the state through high school and with to a degree, for college as well.
3. The idea of the state supplying job opportunities bothers me tremendously.  That was done with the Civilian Conservation Corps previously, but now I would expect it to result in white collar hiring that would transition to new, permanent jobs.  Note that Obama provided the means for private companies to qualify for stimulus funding but didn't even touch direct federal employment as a means to reduce unemployment - I suspect that it would be politically too unpopular.
4. There is no way on God's green earth that I would recommend the Internet as a source of medical and psychological counseling.
5. I do not feel that job opportunities and medical/psychological counseling are rights.  Not if I have to pay for them.  Your premise seems to be that they are, and that because the Internet can provide them, the Internet should be a right.  If they WERE in fact rights, I don't see why a means of providing rights should itself be a right.






Moonhead -> RE: UN- Internet- a human "right"? (2/1/2011 6:07:40 AM)

I think in this case the right issue is a bit less complicated than you're suggesting: isn't the implication just that somebody with the money and infrastructure to use the internet has the right not to have it shut down by the government?



pahunkboy -> RE: UN- Internet- a human "right"? (2/1/2011 6:20:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ashjor911

Good points DarkSteven
i will add to your list freedom of speach.
tazzygirl nice way to prove your point,
freedom of spach in newspapers & TV & others but in the middel east there is no freedom of speach
for example: (no one in egypt did attack Mobarak in newspapers before).



In America,  we have un-alienable rights.  This means our creator gives us rights that no government can give.

Some here- tho think the state trumps the natural rights.



pahunkboy -> RE: UN- Internet- a human "right"? (2/1/2011 6:22:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I think in this case the right issue is a bit less complicated than you're suggesting: isn't the implication just that somebody with the money and infrastructure to use the internet has the right not to have it shut down by the government?


Jamming enemy communications is generally seen as an act of war- think of it as a block-ade on information.  Block-ades are always an act of war.  Taken a bit further- martial law is also an act of war on.



DarkSteven -> RE: UN- Internet- a human "right"? (2/1/2011 6:24:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ashjor911

i will add to your list freedom of speach.



ashjor, I would agree with you.  However, I hijacked the thread by interpreting this as "what rights do people have that I would have to pay for if they were provided by the state?"

I shouldn't have included the delivery mechanism as being a factor...

If I looked at it your way, I would have to add things like freedom of religion, peaceful assembly, speech, freedom from discrimination, etc.

But I still say that the Internet is not a right.





ashjor911 -> RE: UN- Internet- a human "right"? (2/1/2011 6:37:25 AM)

i second that DarkSteven
(that =the Internet is not a right.)



Rule -> RE: UN- Internet- a human "right"? (2/1/2011 6:43:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
I disagree with your post on several grounds.

That is okay.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
1. As tazzy stated, these things can be provided without the Internet.
2. Education, as tazzy said, is provided by the state through high school and with to a degree, for college as well.

I genuinely am not interested in tazzystates.

Internet education often is free and there are such things as State Exams.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
3. The idea of the state supplying job opportunities bothers me tremendously.  That was done with the Civilian Conservation Corps previously

You have no labor offices for the unemployed in the States?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
4. There is no way on God's green earth that I would recommend the Internet as a source of medical and psychological counseling.

At least one Dutch physician gives free medical counsel to Dutch people abroad. Notice 'free'. The reason that not more physicians counsel by way of the Internet is because they want to get paid. So they would rather that someone died than give counsel by means of the Internet and not get paid.

There is all kind of medical and herbal advice on the internet. It is quite useful.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
5. I do not feel that job opportunities and medical/psychological counseling are rights.  Not if I have to pay for them.

You already are paying for them. Likely you pay an insurance company and likely you pay taxes. Likely those taxes are used to finance labor offices. You might save a bundle if those insurance companies and labor offices were done away with.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
Your premise seems to be that they are, and that because the Internet can provide them, the Internet should be a right.  If they WERE in fact rights, I don't see why a means of providing rights should itself be a right.

Please do not tell me what my premise is. I had no premise. Read my post carefully and you will see that I merely asked questions and that I made an assertion about some of the functions of the Internet.



Elisabella -> RE: UN- Internet- a human "right"? (2/1/2011 6:46:59 AM)

The internet is not a human right but freedom of speech is.

If the only reason to shut down the internet is to shut down communication and freedom of speech, it is a violation of human rights.



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