Psychologists, are they any real use ?

Psychologists, are they any real use ? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid

Message

Aneirin -> Psychologists, are they any real use ? (2/1/2011 1:10:24 AM)
Psychologists, are they in reality any use to man or beast, or are they just existing to create a profession for themselves ? New Study By Psychologists at the University of Leicester on the subject of Personality and individual differences and in this instance, as it pertains to the job of retail store security ; Who to look out for as a potential shop lifter I mean, really ?

TotallyDude -> RE: Psychologists, are they any real use ? (2/1/2011 1:23:00 AM)
quote: Psychologists, are they in reality any use to man or beast, or are they just existing to create a profession for themselves ? New Study By Psychologists at the University of Leicester on the subject of Personality and individual differences and in this instance, as it pertains to the job of retail store security ; Who to look out for as a potential shop lifter I mean, really ? So you linked to a deliberately piss-poor summary of an academic paper printed at what appears to be a commercial security site trying to drum up business by claiming that more or less everybody is at risk to be a shoplifter? It took me less than 5 seconds on Google to find a more apt description of the paper cited. Most notably, the site you linked claims the paper found "Most shoplifters are age 16-80." And I mean LOL am I right, how useless and silly is that? Oh wait, that isn't what the paper found. The paper was " based on a sample of 114 shoppers aged from 16 to 80 years of age who anonymously completed four questionnaires to measure personality, consumer ethical beliefs, attitudes to shoplifting, and demographics." So actually by surveying convicted shoplifters between those two extreme age groups the study sought to control for differences in attitudes that could be explained away by generational difference. I haven't read the paper either, and I don't intend to. The Dude is also not here to stand up for all psychologists everywhere. I just wanted to point out that you found a horribly sloppy misrepresentation of what looks like a complex paper with nuanced findings and tried to foist it off as some kind of universal refutation of psychologists as a whole? Weak sauce, dude. Weak sauce. Edited for clarity.

Aneirin -> RE: Psychologists, are they any real use ? (2/1/2011 1:39:49 AM)
Yeah, well when one has had the misfortune to be accused of being a potential shop lifter by a security guard in a shop, one tends to look at what it is they use for profiling people for extra scrutiny, bad manners and abuse. The link I provided confirmed my belief that a potential criminal can be anyone, and using profiles in ludicrous, as one hat does not fit all, but if security professionals are using information provided by psychologists, they are in fact in danger of offending people who do not deserve to be offended, because psychology is not an exact science. I have worked in security, and my training was to not seek the obvious, for the best way for a criminal, any criminal to succeed in their aim, is to blend in and not draw attention to oneself, but it seems the majority of dicks in uniform have not that kind of training, either that, or not a lot going on between their ears.

TotallyDude -> RE: Psychologists, are they any real use ? (2/1/2011 1:47:17 AM)
quote: The link I provided confirmed my belief that a potential criminal can be anyone, and using profiles in ludicrous, as one hat does not fit all, but if security professionals are using information provided by psychologists, they are in fact in danger of offending people who do not deserve to be offended, because psychology is not an exact science. So you found a link that you believed because even though it was obviously so simplistic as to be a caricature it confirmed a bias you have due to a grudge against security guards for accusing you of shoplifting when you didn't do it? It's easy to find links that confirm biases you already have, dude. There is a whole world out there eager to confirm every bias you have with inaccurate or half-ass information. Part of being an intelligent adult is learning to look for good information and real evidence, not to flail around in hope of having biases confirmed. The study of human behavior is an inexact science, thank God. And expecting some security guard to apply studies done by other people by making judgment calls day in and day out is even less exact. Sometimes they will make good faith mistakes. Sometimes they're just dickheads on power trips. You have to understand how ludicrous it is to go from bad personal experiences to trying to...what discredit psychologists as a whole based on a blurb on a website to drum up business for one of the security firms that employs the people you mistrust so much? The mind boggles and the head spins, old boy.

RapierFugue -> RE: Psychologists, are they any real use ? (2/1/2011 2:12:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TotallyDude The Dude is also not here to stand up for all psychologists everywhere. They would find your habit of constantly referring to yourself in the 3rd person cause for further investigation. quote: ORIGINAL: TotallyDude I just wanted to point out that you found a horribly sloppy misrepresentation of what looks like a complex paper with nuanced findings and tried to foist it off as some kind of universal refutation of psychologists as a whole? Weak sauce, dude. Weak sauce. Yes, those sweeping generalisations can be a proper bugger, eh? :) But you are, on this occasion correct, at least partially so. It's a pretty weak summation, but the study itself has more holes in it than a tea-bag; the sample size, for example, is way too small to be taken seriously, for a start (for such a large-scale conclusion approach). Then there's the fact that the study seems pretty damn short (never a good sign), and the icing on the cake is that it doesn't appear to have been peer reviewed before first publication, although I can't confirm that without stumping up money to buy it, and I'm not that fussed. I would also venture to suggest that the conclusion that unpleasant, antisocial and disorganised males are more likely to commit crime will not be seen as the most stunning revelation of our age. BTW it's also not a "new" study either; it was first submitted on 5th June 2009, and accepted for publication in February 2010. I would tend to question whether or not the OP's unpleasant experiences with store security might have coloured his opinions just a tad.

Aneirin -> RE: Psychologists, are they any real use ? (2/1/2011 2:33:08 AM)
RF, you are of course correct, my unpleasant experience yesterday, did colour my opinion somewhat, just when I was beginning to think it was all me, I discover it's not, but then, I am detecting a certain increase in authoritarian mentality in the UK. Not so much a pride in the job, but a sense that I have a hat, and I will wear it, basically people who need a uniform or title to make them something they are not, the Police being particularly good at this, their stance being they do not like one's attitude or tone when a person has the audacity to not agree with their summation of oneself. The instance that caused me such concern, was myself dressed as a construction worker, all paint, dust and mismatched work clothes in a DIY store with two and a half K in my pocket. But whilst the security guard was following me around, he totally missed a more conservatively dressed individual stealing energy saving light bulbs, I saw that, with my observation skills tuned for the not so obvious. Now normally, I would report the theft to a member of staff, perhaps even the security, but seeing as their attitude towards myself was somewhat remiss, I decided to let the store take the hit, as like as not, when the lost items are discovered, the minds will be thinking of such scruffy types as myself, not the not looking construction workers that frequent such stores. As to psychologists, I have used them before, and discovered psychology is not an exact science, an admission from the psychologist themselves, who if good at their job are useful in putting the correct wordage to something a client cannot understand for themselves. Where they go wrong, is when they arrogantly decide something must be so, because there is a history of such in the past, and there follow guidelines from the past, whereas the world is in constant change and as it changes, so do people. The very signature I use here at the bottom of my posts was inspired by my old psychologist, for it is totally correct.

TotallyDude -> RE: Psychologists, are they any real use ? (2/1/2011 2:41:44 AM)
quote: It's a pretty weak summation Eh that's a bit of the old understatement innit it old sport? The commercial site the OP linked to deliberately and thoroughly buggered the study as part of an ad line. Then the OP took this deliberate and thorough buggering of the study and buggered it up a bit himself, buggered to beggar belief to coin a phrase; and tried to argue that from this horribly misrepresented single study one ought draw conclusions about the practice of psychology in general. That's where The Dude's interest endeth. Your points about the study seem to be spot on although, like you, I don't have enough interest to pay for or hunt the damn thing down. My only concern is that the OP understand he's coming into this argument with some wildly distorting biases that need to be cast aside at some point, preferably sooner than later.

TotallyDude -> RE: Psychologists, are they any real use ? (2/1/2011 2:44:35 AM)
quote: RF, you are of course correct, my unpleasant experience yesterday, did colour my opinion somewhat, just when I was beginning to think it was all me, I discover it's not, but then, I am detecting a certain increase in authoritarian mentality in the UK. Not so much a pride in the job, but a sense that I have a hat, and I will wear it, basically people who need a uniform or title to make them something they are not, the Police being particularly good at this, their stance being they do not like one's attitude or tone when a person has the audacity to not agree with their summation of oneself. Dude if you wanna fight the power and take a stand against authoritarianism I am with you one hundred percent. I'd also like to dismantle the bourgeois society of the spectacle and take a sledgehammer to the hierarchy of white male privilege. Sign me up for all that, post haste. Just keep in mind there is still a right way and a wrong way to use evidence and we'll be fast friends. :)

RapierFugue -> RE: Psychologists, are they any real use ? (2/1/2011 2:50:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin RF, you are of course correct, my unpleasant experience yesterday, did colour my opinion somewhat, just when I was beginning to think it was all me, I discover it's not, but then, I am detecting a certain increase in authoritarian mentality in the UK. Not so much a pride in the job, but a sense that I have a hat, and I will wear it, basically people who need a uniform or title to make them something they are not, the Police being particularly good at this, their stance being they do not like one's attitude or tone when a person has the audacity to not agree with their summation of oneself. Well you're 20 years late to the party but thanks for turning up eventually ;) I don't have a huge issue with the Police. Granted, some of them are somewhat unprofessional, but they're at least trained, and "licensed" insofar as they operate within a fairly rigid set of rules and guidelines. No the ones that irk me, and increasingly so, are the “hobby bobbies”; i.e. the “Police Community Support Officers”, aka “CHIMPS” as proper cops call them (standing for Can’t Help In Most Police Situations) – these jumped-up security guards have a tendency to attempt to exercise authority they don't have and, when you call them on it, as I have, several times, they get rather shirty. I had a huge run-in with one a couple of years ago, which ended up with me being in the right, and them making a lot of threats they couldn't make good on, but it was still an annoying and upsetting confrontation. quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin The instance that caused me such concern, was myself dressed as a construction worker, all paint, dust and mismatched work clothes in a DIY store with two and a half K in my pocket. But whilst the security guard was following me around, he totally missed a more conservatively dressed individual stealing energy saving light bulbs, I saw that, with my observation skills tuned for the not so obvious. Now normally, I would report the theft to a member of staff, perhaps even the security, but seeing as their attitude towards myself was somewhat remiss, I decided to let the store take the hit, as like as not, when the lost items are discovered, the minds will be thinking of such scruffy types as myself, not the not looking construction workers that frequent such stores. That's a little juvenile, if you don't mind me saying - theft is theft, and if I see it, I'm going to call it. Don't get me wrong, I can understand why you'd be miffed, but remember it's not "the shop" that pays for it, it's us, because the shop would have to pass on any loss of revenue as an increase in its operating costs, generally to thee and me, in increased prices. quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin As to psychologists, I have used them before, and discovered psychology is not an exact science, an admission from the psychologist themselves, who if good at their job are useful in putting the correct wordage to something a client cannot understand for themselves. Where they go wrong, is when they arrogantly decide something must be so, because there is a history of such in the past, and there follow guidelines from the past, whereas the world is in constant change and as it changes, so do people. The very signature I use here at the bottom of my posts was inspired by my old psychologist, for it is totally correct. I haven't used them before but (having worked with quite a few) I'd describe them both as variable in quality, and strangely prone to psychological issues themselves. BTW, do you mean psychologists, or do you mean psychiatrists? There's a difference.

Rule -> RE: Psychologists, are they any real use ? (2/1/2011 2:54:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin The instance that caused me such concern, was myself dressed as a construction worker, all paint, dust and mismatched work clothes in a DIY store with two and a half K in my pocket. But whilst the security guard was following me around So do not frequent that store any more. Their loss.

RapierFugue -> RE: Psychologists, are they any real use ? (2/1/2011 2:55:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TotallyDude Eh that's a bit of the old understatement innit it old sport? Not really. The study is weak, ergo the summation is weak too. It's not hugely dissimilar in qualitative terms to the study. quote: ORIGINAL: TotallyDude Your points about the study seem to be spot on although, like you, I don't have enough interest to pay for or hunt the damn thing down. My only concern is that the OP understand he's coming into this argument with some wildly distorting biases that need to be cast aside at some point, preferably sooner than later. I would remind you of the thread you started recently, the statements you made therein, and then refer you to the highlighted passage, above. Greenhouses, half-bricks, etc. etc.

TotallyDude -> RE: Psychologists, are they any real use ? (2/1/2011 3:02:05 AM)
quote: Not really. The study is weak, ergo the summation is weak too. It's not hugely dissimilar in qualitative terms to the study. LOL you're too bright to believe that and you're simply being a contrarian now old boy. The study was of a sample size of shoplifters between the ages of 16 and 80 searching for common personality types they might have. Dubious and vague from the outset. But from this, the summation on the page the OP linked to states that the study's conclusion was "Shoplifters are likely to be between the ages of 16 and 80." Then it giggles and titters a bit about how vague that is. Honestly you're just making yourself look a bit daffy pursuing this line of argument when it would be no skin off your back to admit "The study was weak but the summation the OP linked to was oh so much worse." If you simply admit this I promise The Dude shan't hold it against you. quote: I would remind you of the thread you started recently, the statements you made therein, and then refer you to the highlighted passage, above. Greenhouses, half-bricks, etc. etc. You can remind me all you want. That was an entertaining thread in which we all became such fast friends and where I was introduced to the board so much more quickly than might otherwise have happened. :) But when it comes down to brass tacks, whether I showed general traits of good-eggerism or stinker-ism is that thread in the way I argued has no bearing on the validity of either the study linked to by the OP or his own extrapolations of that study.

tazzygirl -> RE: Psychologists, are they any real use ? (2/1/2011 3:07:56 AM)
Do you often refer to yourself in the third person?

TotallyDude -> RE: Psychologists, are they any real use ? (2/1/2011 3:09:37 AM)
quote: Do you often refer to yourself in the third person? Yeah.

GreedyTop -> RE: Psychologists, are they any real use ? (2/1/2011 3:15:01 AM)
yes. psychologists (and psychiatrists) CAN be of 'real use'.

RapierFugue -> RE: Psychologists, are they any real use ? (2/1/2011 3:17:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TotallyDude LOL you're too bright to believe that and you're simply being a contrarian now old boy. Please don't presume to tell me what I am, and am not. The study is a weak one. The summation is a weak one. They're not, from a materiality point of view, substantially different. quote: ORIGINAL: TotallyDude You can remind me all you want. That was an entertaining thread in which we all became such fast friends and where I was introduced to the board so much more quickly than might otherwise have happened. :) But when it comes down to brass tacks, whether I showed general traits of good-eggerism or stinker-ism is that thread in the way I argued has no bearing on the validity of either the study linked to by the OP or his own extrapolations of that study. No, but it does have a bearing on how people might view your contributions to other threads. You exhibit strong narcissistic traits with an unhealthily bullying tone (at times), ergo it's a tad rich of you to have a pop at someone else for doing not even as much as you yourself do elsewhere. It’s called hypocrisy, and it’s not unreasonable of me to point that out.

Aneirin -> RE: Psychologists, are they any real use ? (2/1/2011 3:17:15 AM)
Psychiatrists from my experience are screwed themselves, in fact an ex neighbour who just happened to be the head of department at a psychiatric hospital, yes, one that still existed up to at least five years ago was nuttier than a bag of KP ready salted, an alcoholic and self prescribing from her pill pad at that. Psychiatrists from my experience don't listen to their clients, yack on about themselves, fall asleep, or form an opinion from it seems appearance and there prescribe medication. Psychologists, to be fair I do have more respect for, they it seems actually listen and offer advice based upon their interpretation of what is being said. I had one for depression and confusion, which later turned out to have a name, Dyspraxia and Asperger's, and there the reason why I cannot profit from my my high IQ and reasoning abilities, in short, I think differently and have marked problems with communication, both ways, non verbal being the biggest problem. Personally, I am finding much salve in zen buddhism, but that came by way of the psychologist I had, as ZB, is a philosophy, not a religion.

tazzygirl -> RE: Psychologists, are they any real use ? (2/1/2011 3:17:43 AM)
hmmm... slave tendencies. People shoplift for different reasons. I am highly dubious of any study that indicates the reason why a 16 year old does is remotely close to why an 80 year old does... outside of those who do so compulsively.

RapierFugue -> RE: Psychologists, are they any real use ? (2/1/2011 3:18:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop yes. psychologists (and psychiatrists) CAN be of 'real use'. Absolutely. Is it snowing out? Chuck a couple under each wheel and bingo! Traction ;)

RapierFugue -> RE: Psychologists, are they any real use ? (2/1/2011 3:22:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Psychiatrists from my experience are screwed themselves Well from the "trying to reduce the overall number of sweeping generalisations" point of view that's not helping much :) While I agree with you that psychiatry does seem to tolerate a great many poor members of the profession, labelling them all as "screwed" is a tad over the top, IMHO at least.

Page: [1] 2 3 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.046875