4th Branch of Government, you knew right? (Full Version)

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Real0ne -> 4th Branch of Government, you knew right? (2/1/2011 11:24:37 PM)

Jury Nullification is defined as the right of the jury to judge not only the guilt or innocence of an individual, but also to determine whether or not the law under which they are charged is a just law.

It is one of our fundamental rights, and a protector of our liberty, but the judiciary will not inform juror’s of their rights!

The Founding Fathers all intended the jury to serve as a final safeguard of our liberties. In 1804, Samuel Chase, Supreme Court Justice and signer of the Declaration of Independence said: "The jury has the Right to judge both the law and the facts".

This power which Americans possess is to nullify oppressive acts of the legislature.” Thomas Jefferson said, “I consider trial by jury as the only anchor, ever yet imagined by man, by which a Government can be held to the principles of it’s constitution.” John Jay stated that “juries have the right to take upon themselves to judge both the law as well the facts.” John Adams said, “it is not only his (juror’s) right, but his duty – to find the verdict according to his own best understanding, judgment and conscience, though in direct opposition to the direction of the court.”

The Constitutions of numerous States currently have provisions guaranteeing the right of jurors to “judge” or “determine” the law, and two recent court cases have upheld this right. U.S. v. Dougherty, 473 F.2d 1139 (1972) and United States v. Moylan, 417 F.2d 1002, 1006 (4th Cir. 1969)

However, the Supreme Court has ruled that although juries have the right to ignore a judge's instructions on the law, they don't have to be made aware of their right to do so.


[image]local://upfiles/59055/6B9BBA59F94040FC8EB315F4FA6BACA1.jpg[/image]



OR

is this what you knew?


http://bensguide.gpo.gov/3-5/government/branches.html



Shall we say FRAUD by omission!


Black's Law Dictionary, 4th Ed., 425, 426

COURT. ...

INTERNATIONAL LAW

The person and suite of the sovereign; the place where the
sovereign sojourns with his regal retinue, wherever that may be.
....

CLASSIFICATION

A "court of record" is:

a judicial tribunal having attributes and exercising functions independently of the person of the magistrate designated generally to hold it, and proceeding according to the course of common law, its acts and proceedings being enrolled for a perpetual memorial. Jones v. Jones, 188 Mo.App. 220, 175 S.W. 227, 229; Ex parte Gladhill, 8 Metc. Mass., 171, per Shaw, C.J. See, also, Ledwith v. Rosalsky, 244 N.Y. 406, 155 N.E. 688, 689




Termyn8or -> RE: 4th Branch of Government, you knew right? (2/2/2011 12:40:54 AM)

How about less talk and more action. I am not being cynical. People really do need to know this, so what to do ? Posting it on a BDSM forum is not quite the way to do it. Not that you shouldn't, but these facts must be known to alot more people. Extant facts are that if the jury knew their power they would take a bit of the edge out of the pocket of prosecutors. It's been clear that there is alot of collusion between prosecutors and judges. It is also apparent that there are so many laws on the books that abuse by selective enforcement happens alot more than people think.

So unlike those with their thoughts etched in stone, I'll go with this. Normally, registered voters are the ones selected for jury duty. Unfortunately that mean that they support the system as it is, which could cut both ways. But if we are to respect the real law, we have to take it as it comes.

Lists of registered voters can be had. It's not the easiest thing in the world, but it's a start. Now with a printer, I don't mean a $59 inkjet piece of shit, I mean taking the master copy to a printing company, we could engage in direct mail. Direct mail is a bit more respected than flyers and such. The only better thing would be to put the message on the idiot box, or a less costly alternative would be the radio. The idea is to reach the most people as possible.

But once that's done you do open the door to abuse by the juries themselves. If you think that it won't happen you should tell me about your planet. There is some question as to whether we can trust juries, but the law is the law. I say let the chips fall.

Twenty nine years ago I got my first DUI, they were called DWIs then, it's been awhile. The judge ? Well the judge had just had his daughter killed by a drunk druiver, and this was not a random stop. I demolished a fella's pickup truck. Now what do you think was going through my head at the time ? All these lawyers would charge me tens of thousands of dollars, and I would be fucked anyway. I found the right one, and skated.

If I had pulled a jury who do you think I might get ? A bunch of partyying motherfuckers like me ? I doubt it. In fact being a mayor's court, some of them probably voted for him and maybe even knew him or his daughter personally. What do you think they would've done ?

So realize what this entails.

What if a guy, not an addict was caught with drugs ? People get addicted to drugs all the time. Say the guy is just a weekend partier and went to pick up a little coke. Now let's say that one jurer had a child die from a coke overdose, and a couple of others have kids who are struggling with that problem. What is to counteract that ? What keeps it fair ? If the defendant proves it is an occasional thing, and there is no problem, no victim and therefore no crime as per the Gonzalez case, now the defense is throwing up the inadequacies of the jurer's ability to teach their kids not to fall into such a trap - right in their faces. How do you think they are going to feel ?

How much confidence do you have in the average person to weigh the evidence properly and acquit because no vicitm exists ? Really.

Actually, maybe the place to do this is in closing arguments of a trial. Any competent defense attourney should mention jury nullification in the closing argument, but that is forbidden. How can they forbid something like that when a person is on trial for their freedom (from actual incarceration) or their very life (like in a capital case) ?

And even if it was changed, would it really do much good in a dog eat dog world ? In a world in which your neighbor thinks he might shoot you over a parking spot if not for gun control ? Where they will risk the lives of 20 people or so on the highway to make sure you don't get in front of them ? Where they play office politics and steal credit for good work whenever they can ?

I'm with you on this, but I just don't have enough of confiodence in human nature to think that it will do much good. Not that it doesn't need to be done, it does. But what good will probably come of it ? The sheeple really do need strong, severe and complete guidance. They do not posess the capacity to rule. And when you are on a jury that is effectively what you must do. To keep fairnees above all other things. To administer true justice.

Do you trust registered voters to do that ?

T^




Elisabella -> RE: 4th Branch of Government, you knew right? (2/2/2011 12:51:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
Now what do you think was going through my head at the time ? 


"Oh my God I could have killed someone"?




Termyn8or -> RE: 4th Branch of Government, you knew right? (2/2/2011 1:13:04 AM)

That came later.

T^T

(no, it didn't happen)




rulemylife -> RE: 4th Branch of Government, you knew right? (2/2/2011 7:23:55 AM)

You posted all of this on another thread, and it was discussed thoroughly.

Is there any point in repeating it, other than you like to listen to yourself talk?




Real0ne -> RE: 4th Branch of Government, you knew right? (2/2/2011 8:04:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

You posted all of this on another thread, and it was discussed thoroughly.

Is there any point in repeating it, other than you like to listen to yourself talk?



really?  Show me.

I think it bothers you. 

I think I struck a STFU chord.

That and DUE PROCESS are the 2 things that piss the banks and brits off the most about america.

ever notice that?

LETS JAMM!






Termyn8or -> RE: 4th Branch of Government, you knew right? (2/2/2011 8:44:17 AM)

Gotta call you on that one. Other countries do have juries.

T^T




popeye1250 -> RE: 4th Branch of Government, you knew right? (2/2/2011 9:56:58 AM)

I saw this on a t.v. documentary many years ago.
It said that a judge couldn't inform a jury that they could interpret the law.




Termyn8or -> RE: 4th Branch of Government, you knew right? (2/2/2011 9:59:12 AM)

Common sense says that is the primary reason for the existence of juries.

Oh wait, common sense is now an oxymoron.

T^T




luckydawg -> RE: 4th Branch of Government, you knew right? (2/2/2011 1:47:13 PM)

Term, why are you afraid to let us see the court records regarding any of your skating on DUI charges? I really would like to examine the veracity of your claims.

Of course I do think you are lying, but hey it impresses PA


and Elissabella, of course Term doesn't give a shit if he hurts or kills someone through his partying. That should be very clear by now.






Termyn8or -> RE: 4th Branch of Government, you knew right? (2/2/2011 2:31:08 PM)

Got a Choicepoint account ? I could give you my SS on the other side.

And if you think I don't care you are mistaken.

T^T




Politesub53 -> RE: 4th Branch of Government, you knew right? (2/3/2011 5:48:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

really?  Show me.

I think it bothers you. 

I think I struck a STFU chord.

That and DUE PROCESS are the 2 things that piss the banks and brits off the most about america.

ever notice that?



Are you suggesting British Juries can`t over rule judges instructions ?





Termyn8or -> RE: 4th Branch of Government, you knew right? (2/3/2011 8:11:55 AM)

"Term, why are you afraid to let us see the court records regarding any "

Name your proof. I'll put up. And I am nowhere near afraid. I am not afraid of identity theft, you wouldn't want it. You couldn't handle it. I already blew my wad. There's no credit left to steal. I already burned it up.

Seven convictions, five reduced charges and then the five or so that got swept under the rug. I'd have to dig up the actual tickets and you can note the lack of anything corresponding on the record, which you find for yourself. Would that be good enough ?

Note that I am not proud of it, this shit almost wrecked my life. It hurt my earning power and though things can be made to disappear on a local level, I can't seem to get it done with the state or the NCIC or whatever the hell it is. (national level)

I am not proud of it at all, but I sure as fuck ain't afraid. Name your poison,,,,,errrr, proof. How do I go about it. Out here in the forum. I'll send you ONE mail with the info and numbers you need to get your proof. Then you put the results out here where everyone can see.

Afraid my fucking ass. I've been shot, cut, beaten half to death. I've lost everything I own twice, was homeless at one time and almost died last year because I refused to go to doctors and that's the second time) . I've been through shit that would kill alot of people. I've been in car wrecks you wouldn't believe anyone lived through, let alone walked away. You think I'm afraid now ? Bullshit.

Get on with it.

T^T




Termyn8or -> RE: 4th Branch of Government, you knew right? (2/3/2011 8:19:01 AM)

"Are you suggesting British Juries can`t over rule judges instructions ?"

That's a good question really. I have no idea myself, it's just something I never cared to look into.

I would assume juries serve the same purpose as the do here, or suppopsedly that is, but tthey might just be a form of a "rubber stamp".

What I've heard is that the police operate a bit differently in Europe/over there, whatever. They go to court with a hell of alot more evidence. By the time you get arested you really are through.

But that is admittedly hearsay. Now I'm curious, and would like to know for sure. Someone around here should know, I would think.

T^T




DCWoody -> RE: 4th Branch of Government, you knew right? (2/3/2011 8:21:49 AM)

Are people ITT suggesting that the usa justice system is better than European systems? Cos I have a bridge I'm sellin...




Politesub53 -> RE: 4th Branch of Government, you knew right? (2/3/2011 11:28:24 AM)

Termy I was wondering if Real would reply, since he seemed to be making the claim.

In short juries here can decide to ignore a Judges instructions, without fear of punishment. IE...If they think a case has been brought for political reasons, they can dismiss it. They can also do that if they feel a law isnt just.




Arpig -> RE: 4th Branch of Government, you knew right? (2/3/2011 12:31:01 PM)

quote:

Jury Nullification is defined as the right of the jury to judge not only the guilt or innocence of an individual, but also to determine whether or not the law under which they are charged is a just law.
Actually...no, its the right of a jury to bring in a verdict contrary to the law...and it establishes no precedent. Jury nullification also exists in many places other then the US, it exists anywhere where British common law is the basis of the legal system, oddly enough including the UK, so I don't see jusy how its existance in the US pisses off the brits, but what the fuck, as usual you are totally misunderstanding the issues about which you are posting.




luckydawg -> RE: 4th Branch of Government, you knew right? (2/3/2011 12:51:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"Term, why are you afraid to let us see the court records regarding any "

Name your proof. I'll put up. And I am nowhere near afraid. I am not afraid of identity theft, you wouldn't want it. You couldn't handle it. I already blew my wad. There's no credit left to steal. I already burned it up.

Seven convictions, five reduced charges and then the five or so that got swept under the rug. I'd have to dig up the actual tickets and you can note the lack of anything corresponding on the record, which you find for yourself. Would that be good enough ?

Note that I am not proud of it, this shit almost wrecked my life. It hurt my earning power and though things can be made to disappear on a local level, I can't seem to get it done with the state or the NCIC or whatever the hell it is. (national level)

I am not proud of it at all, but I sure as fuck ain't afraid. Name your poison,,,,,errrr, proof. How do I go about it. Out here in the forum. I'll send you ONE mail with the info and numbers you need to get your proof. Then you put the results out here where everyone can see.

Afraid my fucking ass. I've been shot, cut, beaten half to death. I've lost everything I own twice, was homeless at one time and almost died last year because I refused to go to doctors and that's the second time) . I've been through shit that would kill alot of people. I've been in car wrecks you wouldn't believe anyone lived through, let alone walked away. You think I'm afraid now ? Bullshit.

Get on with it.

T^T



Term, you know that for me to post the contents of a cmail would get me put into mod suspension for several months.

So yeah it is pretty fucking cowardly for you to offer to do that.

Post some proof. Docket numbers or some such.

You have been asked multiple times to back up ANY of the shit you claim.

So do it.

Or be seen as a lying coward.

You have been challenged to put up or shut up.

Whats it going to be?


For the record I doubt you have ever been in a fight in your life.




Lucylastic -> RE: 4th Branch of Government, you knew right? (2/3/2011 1:22:01 PM)

big yellow dawgy doesnt want a mod spanking but hes ok with calling Term a a lying coward,
If you were any kind of man you wouldnt need to repost his proof if he sent it to you, you would take it like a man and admit you are wrong.
I dont give a rats arse one way or the other, but man its funny seeing lil chicken squawk.







luckydawg -> RE: 4th Branch of Government, you knew right? (2/3/2011 1:27:36 PM)

and posting personal attacks on subjects you don't give a rat's arse about is a base characteristic of trolls.






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