Safewords are NOT for novices! (Full Version)

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TallDarkAndWitty -> Safewords are NOT for novices! (5/3/2006 8:59:52 AM)

There comes a time when one sees that the conventional wisdom of one's community has become infested with a bit of incorrect information.  That this has happened with safewords became obvious to me in reading the recent "should a slave in training be allowed safewords?" thread and seeing the numerous misconceptions and bits of misinformation that were repeated over and over by people who really should know better.  

To start, we need to define the term so we all are on the same page.  A safeword is a word or phrase used to convey a statement of condition between top and bottom in a BDSM scene.  Common examples of safewords are “red” (which is commonly used to stop a scene), “yellow” (which is commonly used to express a desire to slow the pace or pause), and “green” (which is commonly used to indicate “more!”).  Although similar in function, hand signals and non-verbal communication are not “safewords”, at least for sake of this discussion.   Safewords are a tool, created for use in a few forms of intermediate level BDSM scenes, such as immersive role play and resistance play.  They allow a bottom to scream “no” or “stop” or “someone help me!” without making the top read the bottom’s mind to determine if they really want to stop, or are just getting into the role play.   

Safewords are not universally useful.  They are not training wheels, to be taken off once the bottom has gained some experience.  They are not something that a top and bottom both need until they get to know one another.  They are a particular tool for a particular type of play, and are very useful in that type of play, but can be downright harmful if used in other types of play, particularly when used by novices.  

As an example, I once again give this incident from my own past:  When I was very new, playing with a very new slave, we had a series of safewords that were to be used to convey our mindsets.  During one particular session, my slave started acting a bit peculiar, but I allowed myself to ignore it, as I was sure she would safeword if there was a problem.  During the after-care, I learned that there really was a problem, but the slave didn’t safeword, because she “didn’t even think about it.”  She was a novice, and was not used to calling a safeword during a very intense scene.  I was a novice, and was not really familiar with a slave’s reactions and the fact that many slaves can not safeword during a scene, even if they should and want to.  We both would have been much better served if we had simply relied on old fashioned communication, and not relied on the magic of the safeword to protect us.  

Yet, as a novice, I was drilled that “a good top uses safewords”.  That is simply not true.  A good top uses safewords during role and resistance play scenes.  Other than that, safewords have no place in a BDSM scene.  For a novice, simple rules like “no means no”, “stop means stop”, and “ouch means ouch (though ouch does not mean stop)” are much more useful than any collection of safewords.  

Using safewords properly is a skill that is developed, much like throwing a whip or using a cane.  Just as no one would ever suggest that a novice must use a single tail on his slave, it is similarly ridiculous to suggest that a novice must use safewords.  A rule I have for any tops I mentor is that for the first scene with a new bottom, they can only use their hands for percussive play.  They can work their way up to paddles and floggers and canes as they develop a sense for how the body reacts to punishment.  Shouldn’t we treat safewords the same way?  Instead of shoving them down every newbie’s throat, they should be treated with the same level of education that other tools of their complexity receive.  

Safewords should not be used by novices.  They should not be treated as some magic safety net.  They should be used as the tool they were created to be, and nothing more.  

Taggard





LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! (5/3/2006 9:08:01 AM)

You already know I completely agree with you on the usage of safe words in the scene.  But it won't do much good- people will still use it as their impenetrable shield, turn it into some talisman to give away when they "trust enough" and misuse it to the point of actually become harmful.




mistoferin -> RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! (5/3/2006 9:10:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
They should not be treated as some magic safety net.  They should be used as the tool they were created to be, and nothing more.  
Taggard


I have been saying the same thing as I believe that safewords tend to give people a false sense of security, which in this lifestyle is a very dangerous thing. Safewords are no replacement for open communication and they can't compare to having people in a scene who are intune with each other and paying close attention to their partners reactions. I can't even begin to count though, how many times I have been told that I'm wrong from people who have been brainwashed into believing they need them. It seems that when new people come on the scene they find internet sites and people that spout these cliche one liners about what this is all about and for some reason they just latch right on to them for all it's worth.




TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! (5/3/2006 9:12:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

You already know I completely agree with you on the usage of safe words in the scene.


Yeah...*wink*...you were not my intended audience.

I'm not sure why I feel like banging my head on this wall today, but something in that thread really bothered me.

Taggard




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! (5/3/2006 9:14:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
I'm not sure why I feel like banging my head on this wall today, but something in that thread really bothered me.

Taggard

Blatant one true wayism clouded by romanticism when compared to rational thought and actual practice tends to do that.




mistoferin -> RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! (5/3/2006 9:16:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
I'm not sure why I feel like banging my head on this wall today, but something in that thread really bothered me.
Taggard


Too funny....that is exactly the question I asked myself before I responded. Any yes....sometimes that is exactly what it feels like...futily banging your head against a wall...and sometimes the result is pretty much the same...all you really accomplish is giving yourself a huge headache. Ah well....maybe someone will have a lightbulb click "on"....ya never know.




TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! (5/3/2006 9:20:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
I can't even begin to count though, how many times I have been told that I'm wrong from people who have been brainwashed into believing they need them.


I think that is really what spurred this.  So many times, on these threads, they begin with a simple question like "should a new slave use safewords?"  The old-timers tend to ignore such questions, having seen them a thousand times, and the pages fill up with those that shout "USE SAFEWORDS OR EVERYONE WILL DIE!!!"  It isn't until page 5 that those hwo really understand pipe in and try to set it straight. 

So here is my attempt to battle that...yeah...whatever.  *smile*

Taggard






Mercnbeth -> RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! (5/3/2006 9:24:44 AM)

Taggard,
You're not suggesting that people should wait and get to know the other person before jumping into a BDSM scene are you? Who the hell has the time for that!!?? A safe-word provides the 'holy grail' of excuses. "But officer, it was consensual death - a suicide! she had a safe-word she could use if she didn't have suicidal tendencies. I SWEAR!!"

beth isn't the only example of a person who couldn't safe-word during a scene. People define the legendary 'sub-space' as a place where your brain and emotions separate themselves or 'rewire' the pain centers of the brain to pleasure centers. Doesn't that eliminate the defined use of a safe-word?  I'd further argue that if you've never gone into a session with a person without a safe-word you have never experienced submission. If you believe a dominant or your master will stop immediately when you safe-word by definition you are in charge of the scene. When you have the control to stop you are the top. You may be getting stripes on your ass, and 10 pounds of weights can be hanging from your nipples, but your dom is just the facilitator of what you are feeling. You, with your "red" button control it. Argue or flame away and you won't come up with a convincing argument to change my mind.

There are no shortcuts to trust. There are shortcuts to play. Have fun, play with safe-words, but don't expect them to protect you.

It's been awhile since we've had this debate. Let's see how many pages we get this time.

Taggard - Is it spring yet in upstate NY?




LadyHugs -> RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! (5/3/2006 9:26:31 AM)

Dear TallDarkandWitty, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I read your thread on the uses of safe words.  I would also wish to add, that safe words and or signals, such as dropping a flag or such is not only useful in "disciplinary/punishment" like scenes, e.g. sadist-masochist exchanges but, in pleasure and sensation play.  Further, safe words/safe signals/codes -- should extend to emotional, mental, spiritual as well as physical, as all individuals have issues that aren't manifested until they appear suddenly and without warning.
 
I also agree, that the novice is so caught up into the moment, having fancy codes often confuse the novice even more--so plain words should be deployed and gently proceed into the "universal" scene safe word use.  It is all the novice can do, is to struggle with the "now" of the scene with all the different senses exploding inside of them.
 
I will have to agree with your mentoring style, to which the novice is given a progressive learning curve.  The need to know the power of a Top/Dominant/Master/Mistress-- is the three basics; hand, voice and mind and all other things are mere extentions of the hand, voice and mind of the dominant.
 
It seems that people forget the basics indeed.  So many purchase lots of toys and don't know what they do or what can be done with them, such as with one flogger four other sensations can be obtained. [Flogger as built, twisting the tails, removing part of the tails, removing all but two and removing all but one, in addition to speed, angles, strokes and slave's position and or where impact sites are.]
 
I will mention that safe words/codes are just as important to TOPS, as some of these submissive/slave types like wearing the dominants out. [Teases & grins]
 
Thank you for your thread/post Sir.
 
Respectfully submitted,
Lady Hugs




OTKkindaGirl -> RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! (5/3/2006 9:28:40 AM)

i am fairly new and fortunately for me i have had experiences with a couple very good dominants and one bad one.  i knew what safewords were from the get go.  never have i had to use them. when i go to subspace i do verbally shut down and the only thing speaking are my reactions.  i understand what you are saying and i tend to agree with you.  it all comes down to knowing and trusting the people whose hands you place yourself in.  if there is any doubt on a novice dominants end,  there is nothing wrong with asking to make sure, that in itself would affirm care and concern.




Moloch -> RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! (5/3/2006 9:43:30 AM)

quote:

time when one sees that the conventional wisdom of one's community has become infested with a bit of incorrect information. That this has happened with safewords became obvious to me in reading the recent "should a slave in training be allowed safewords?" thread and seeing the numerous misconceptions and bits of misinformation that were repeated over


Rochester NY is  Western NY




BitaTruble -> RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! (5/3/2006 9:58:00 AM)

In the middle of a bullwhip session, just as the whip hits my back, I drop to my knees and yell out, 'FUCK!'

Did I drop to my knees and yell because the pain was unbearable or did I drop to my knees and yell because I just got an attack of endometriosis and it feels like someone has shoved their hand through my gut and ripped out my ovary?

Himself can assume the former and continue whipping me because 'fuck' is not our safeword. Having just had an attack of endo at the store yesterday while I was packing groceries, I went home and told Himself what happened so he would be aware of where my cycle was and likely to remain for the next few days. Safewords are no substitutes for good communication... it's just another tool in the arsenal of communication. I have one, will always have one, because of the medical issues I have surrounding my endometriosis. Himself is not a mind reader and if that bullwhip hit and I yelled out my safeword from it, he 'knows' in an instant that it's not the pain which HE is causing which has made me scream out that word which means 'stop, there is something seriously wrong here.'


Merc: As far as Himself never experiencing submission you are entitled to your opinion, but I do disagree with it most emphatically. My submission to Himself is not fake because we are wise enough to know we 'need' a safeword in place because of my medical limitations. The counter argument could certainly be made that if you believe yourself to be God, and need not take all issues into consideration and have a safeword in place for emergencies, maybe you're not the mature adult you think you are and one could assume that you don't exhibit real dominance but rather some pseudo God-complex mentality which only looks like dominance and is, in fact, a child playing a game of checkers with human pieces. Reminds me of a Star Trek episode.

Rather insulting that, no, but then it seems that's exactly the button you meant to push in your statement.

Pfft.

Celeste




Mercnbeth -> RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! (5/3/2006 10:26:54 AM)

quote:

Merc: As far as Himself never experiencing submission you are entitled to your opinion, but I do disagree with it most emphatically. My submission to Himself is not fake because we are wise enough to know we 'need' a safeword in place because of my medical limitations. The counter argument could certainly be made that if you believe yourself to be God, and need not take all issues into consideration and have a safeword in place for emergencies, maybe you're not the mature adult you think you are and one could assume that you don't exhibit real dominance but rather some pseudo God-complex mentality which only looks like dominance and is, in fact, a child playing a game of checkers with human pieces. Reminds me of a Star Trek episode.
Rather insulting that, no, but then it seems that's exactly the button you meant to push in your statement.


Didn't find it insulting in the least. It's just shame that he doesn't feel confident enough, or doesn't know you well enough to recognize those issues. In the one instance that beth would have used a safe-word she was already being untied before she could form the words. she also has medical conditions and physiology that I must constantly monitor. I see it as part of my responsibility to her and to us.

It's not "god-like". It's total dedication to know the other person, yourself, and the relationship. A safe-word abdicates control. In the event of accident or a problem it opens the door to shift the blame to the person in control. I would never shift the blame or responsibility to my slave or to any submissive. No rationalization excludes the bottom line, that a safe-word controls the scene. If it doesn't then it's meaningless, if it does, then ultimate control rests in the mind of the person who can use it. Is that a "god-complex" mentality or just "Spock-like" logic?

I never used the term "real" dominance or "real" submission as you did. I'd made a judgment based upon pragmatic fact. Resort to any name calling as that satisfies you. I'll debate my position, and change it if a contrary argument is made. Not based upon name calling or inference to "maturity" or "real dominance" but to the issue of control and consequence. The issue of time, trust, responsibility, and accountability.

I'll ask you the same questions that's I've asked others, especially slaves, with a safeword, even one that has never been used. What part of your brain evaluating capability do you hold back from your scene with your Master to assess whether you should safe-word or not? Why can't you surrender and trust your Master with that responsibility? Why don't you, or he, think he is capable?

I enjoy all the Star Trek episodes, (except for the Deep Space version anyway) but don't see the relevance.




mistoferin -> RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! (5/3/2006 10:31:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
In the middle of a bullwhip session, just as the whip hits my back, I drop to my knees and yell out, 'FUCK!'

Did I drop to my knees and yell because the pain was unbearable or did I drop to my knees and yell because I just got an attack of endometriosis and it feels like someone has shoved their hand through my gut and ripped out my ovary?

Himself can assume the former and continue whipping me because 'fuck' is not our safeword. Having just had an attack of endo at the store yesterday while I was packing groceries, I went home and told Himself what happened so he would be aware of where my cycle was and likely to remain for the next few days. Safewords are no substitutes for good communication... it's just another tool in the arsenal of communication. I have one, will always have one, because of the medical issues I have surrounding my endometriosis. Himself is not a mind reader and if that bullwhip hit and I yelled out my safeword from it, he 'knows' in an instant that it's not the pain which HE is causing which has made me scream out that word which means 'stop, there is something seriously wrong here.'
Celeste


Celeste...I love to read your posts as they are always full of so much practical advice, including this one. Obviously you have found a system that works very well for the two of you and I think that is what is important.

I also need to say though that I have indeed stopped a scene with the word "Fuck"...actually I think I said "Oh Fuck". I have also stopped a scene with the word "Sir!!!". Now I know those are common words included in many scenes, but it was not in the word that I said....it was the word combined with the WAY it was said, combined with my facial expression/reaction....and having a Dominant (actually those scenes were with two different Dominants) who was paying attention and knew immediately that my "Oh Fuck" and my "Sir!!!" were far outside of my normal reactions. To be honest, when my ex and I were still together....it didn't even take a word...if he thought I even breathed wrong you can bet he was stopping to check in and be SURE that all was still a go.

I would also contend that if one is still concious enough to say "Red" or "Oh Fuck" or "Sir!!!", then they are also concious enough to say "Endo" or "Ovary" or "Kidney" or "Hernia" or whatever the case may be.

I don't think that the issue should be the safe word....I think it should be the communication.

To take it one step further...this doesn't even begin to cover the necessary awareness that is necessary on the part of the Top once the bottom has gone beyond the concious ability to safeword.

I very much respect your opinion...but for myself...safewords are not something I could ever trust enough to rely upon. I'll take communication and my decision making skills in choosing play partners over a safeword everyday.




TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! (5/3/2006 11:01:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Himself can assume the former and continue whipping me because 'fuck' is not our safeword.


1) It doesn't sound like you are a novice.
2) If you had fallen to your knees and yelled "Stop", do you think your "Himself" would have continued?  If he would not stop, even though you yelled "stop", you must realize you are doing a lot more than just a S&M session, right?  You have ventured into the realm of resistance play, for which safewords are entirely appropriate and neccessary.

It sounds like you kids know each other pretty well, and that you have enough experience to use safewords appropriately...all of which has nothing to do with my original post.

Novices should not use safewords, unless they really have studied up on them and understand how and when and where to use them.

Taggard






TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! (5/3/2006 11:03:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Taggard - Is it spring yet in upstate NY?


It is and it is beautiful!  Unfortunately, the seasonal change has given me a horrible allergy/sinus infection and I have been under the weather for 3 weeks.  (Elle is not happy. *smile*)

Taggard




LL1aintbehavin -> RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! (5/3/2006 11:09:37 AM)

I am in full agreement with the idea that a safe word is not a guarantee during play, especially when it is very intense.  Many that go into subspace are not able to vocalize complete words much less a safe word.  For those that are able to, then it has it advantages.
For the ones that are not vocal and speech is not possible it is of vital importance that the Top is watching your reactions closely.  Slumping while in bondage, sudden struggles to get loose, screams when normally there is no sound made, anything that is unusual or that there is any doubt in is reason enough to pause and check and made sure that all is well with the submissive.
I am unable to remember my name during play much less try and think of a safe word, but my stance, my facial expression, and numerous other things give definite indications as to whether i am enjoying or in distress.
I have been in distress and just the act of opening my eyes and making eye contact with my Dom fwas enough of a signal to Him that something was wrong enough.
Safe words are excellent on those that are able to use them, but having a Top that watches closely, whether it be a novice or experienced bottom to me is the "safety" i desire.
As Merc said, he knew and was unhooking his slave before she was able to vocalize that something was wrong.  To me that is a close connection and one that watches for any slight changes.
Another thought, in a dungeon setting, when the music is blaring full blast and there are other scenes going on around, how loud do you have to say red to be heard?
just this subbies opinion
aintbehavin




MasterFireMaam -> RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! (5/3/2006 11:13:14 AM)

To me, all you've done is change the novice's safeword to "no", "stop", and "ouch". Actually, I'd agree that this is a much better arrangement...but they're still safewords that get you, the Top, to check in.

Fire





TNstepsout -> RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! (5/3/2006 11:24:36 AM)

Are you saying that safe words shouldn't be used at all or just that they shouldn't be relied upon as the sole means of communication?




peasantsub -> RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! (5/3/2006 11:38:32 AM)

i must agree with the general opinion that the most important issue here is communication.  a Top must learn to read His/Her sub.  They must be constantly aware in the change of reactions.  A submissive can't always verbalize his/her feelings, and often times what sounds like a word of alarm, is not necessairly so.  it is my humble opinion that a good Top will stop any play when He/She is unsure of the subs safety due to reactions.  it is best to err on the side of caution and ask if there is doubt.  




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