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RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/9/2011 1:45:11 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I think we need to examine Sharia law- before we ballyhoo and celebrate its arrival. 


Two falsehoods here:

1- who on here is celebrating the arrival of sharia law?

2- who on here needs to examine it to know that it's an ugly system that'll never be accepted in the western world?

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RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/9/2011 2:17:16 PM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		From the Egyptians I have conversed with, they want more freedom, not less, so the MB presents a problem, although they are organised enough to be of use in these protests, is it a case of use them for now, and ditch them later, or try to ditch them, which won't be easy. As for the future governance of Egypt, well Turkey is a good example to follow, for they cater for all groups, not one above another.

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RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/9/2011 2:48:16 PM   
tweakabelle


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Status: offline 		A recent Brookings Institute analysis of the Egyptian Muslim Brotgherhood concludes:

"[The West] should not be afraid of the Muslim Brotherhood. Living with it won’t be easy but it should not be seen as inevitably our enemy. We need not demonize it nor endorse it"

http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2011/0128_egypt_riedel.aspx

This should put to rest the rather fanciful fears expressed above about anti-Semitism and sharia law.

The demands of the brave protesters in Cairo and elsewhere are about democracy, liberty, jobs, food, justice and an end to tyranny. How familiar does that sound? How can any of us deny these to the Egyptian people? Who amongst us wouldn't be making similar demands in the same place? Could it just be that the concerns of the average Arab are not that much different to that of the average Westerner?

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RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/9/2011 3:37:04 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		If I recall rightly the Muslim Brotherhood denounced 9/11. In any group of this nature you will get extremist views and moderate views. From recent news reports from Egypt the MB doesnt have a large following as yet, percentage wise.

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RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/9/2011 5:51:21 PM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		I  thought they were the Islamic version of a Rotary club....?Perhaps I was mistaken.

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RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/9/2011 6:17:05 PM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		I'm hoping for the best...

The Muslim Brotherhood will play a role in post-Mubarak Egypt, but it's unclear how large a role it will play, and when that will happen.  I read the Wikipedia article on it, and it seems to be largely amorphous, with radical and moderate elements within it.


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RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/9/2011 7:48:37 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

seems to be largely amorphous, with radical and moderate elements within it


Perhaps that's where the moderate rinos went, leaving only the radical elements.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 2/9/2011 7:49:25 PM >

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RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/9/2011 8:16:31 PM   
Anaxagoras


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Status: offline 		A copy and paste job from another thread:

A fairly restrained account of the organisation: http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2011/feb/05/washingtons-secret-history-muslim-brotherhood/

A worrying article based on some intel about their covert activities: http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/p18634.xml

A critical website largely dedicated to the Bro's: http://globalmbreport.org/?p=364 and http://globalmbreport.org/?p=878 which is about the demand of a senior member for the world to move from Greenwich Mean Time to er... Mecca Nice Time.

Absurd as it seems, one reason 9/11 was criticised by some Islamicists is because the infidel is supposed to have the option of conversion. Osama didn't give any option before striking which drew criticism from some jihadists. That is supposed to be the reason why he has been issuing statements demanding that the West convert in recent years. I don't understand why some say the Brotherhood are not a big force in Egypt. They have been seen for some time as successors to Mubarak being the largest opposition party and are supposed to represent a quarter of Egyptians. Surely thats significant.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 2/9/2011 9:16:36 PM >

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RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/9/2011 8:23:38 PM   
Sanity


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The bad part is that the radicals tend to ride roughshod over the moderates, and rule through fear and intimidation. After all, ‘Secularism can never enjoy a general acceptance in an Islamic society.” (Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, of the Muslim Brotherhood). Defying the radicals is by definition apostasy and under Sharia law public apostasy is punishable by execution, that is the law.



quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I'm hoping for the best...

The Muslim Brotherhood will play a role in post-Mubarak Egypt, but it's unclear how large a role it will play, and when that will happen.  I read the Wikipedia article on it, and it seems to be largely amorphous, with radical and moderate elements within it.



< Message edited by Sanity -- 2/9/2011 8:54:03 PM >

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RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/9/2011 8:32:16 PM   
Sanity


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Status: offline 		More from the book:

quote:



As Islam is a comprehensive system of worship (Ibadah) and legislation (Shari’ah), the acceptance of secularism means abandonment of Shari’ah, a denial of the divine guidance and a rejection of Allah’s injunctions. It is indeed a false claim that Shari’ah is not proper to the requirements of the present age. The acceptance of a legislation formulated by humans means a preference of the humans’ limited knowledge and experiences to the divine guidance: “Say! Do you know better than Allah?” (Qur’an, 2:140) For this reason, the call for secularism among Muslims is atheism and a rejection of Islam. Its acceptance as a basis for rule in place of Shari’ah is downright apostasy.



So moderates by definition cannot exist in a truly Islamic society.




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RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/9/2011 10:07:32 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Well, Hillary Clinton said we should, "reach out" to them. So you KNOW that can't be a good ending.
Boy, she's absolutely manic about this Egypt thing! "They're good, they're bad, he's a dictator, he's not a dictator, we should intervene, we shouldn't intervene, we want an orderly transition...."
Instead of acting like the Secy of State she sounds like a junior high school hall monitor. "Tuck in your shirt!" "No running!"
Now jumpin Joe Biden said Mubarak is *not* a dictator but the BBC said he's worth $50 Billion! Where did he get that money from?
Man, what a bunch of amateurs in this administration!

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RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/10/2011 12:31:20 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

More from the book:

quote:



As Islam is a comprehensive system of worship (Ibadah) and legislation (Shari’ah), the acceptance of secularism means abandonment of Shari’ah, a denial of the divine guidance and a rejection of Allah’s injunctions. It is indeed a false claim that Shari’ah is not proper to the requirements of the present age. The acceptance of a legislation formulated by humans means a preference of the humans’ limited knowledge and experiences to the divine guidance: “Say! Do you know better than Allah?” (Qur’an, 2:140) For this reason, the call for secularism among Muslims is atheism and a rejection of Islam. Its acceptance as a basis for rule in place of Shari’ah is downright apostasy.



So moderates by definition cannot exist in a truly Islamic society.




What would anyone learn about the contemporary politics in the West from studying the Bible? Not an awful lot I daresay though perhaps you might find some useful background. I suspect it might be more rewarding to look at what the Islamic world actually is than dealing with the issues through abstractions from Islamic texts.

Indonesia, Malaysia and Turkey are all Islamic democracies. They aren't perfect democracies but which democracy is? (remember Florida, Jeb Bush ??) Turkey is a NATO member of long standing with (I think) US bases or facilities.

My experience is that people in the Islamic world experience the same difficulty understanding centuries of Western colonialism in their lands as some here seem to have understanding contemporary Arab/Muslim world. Education, cultural exchange and dialogue, not xenophobia or Islamophobia is the answer.


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/10/2011 12:33:11 AM >

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RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/10/2011 2:44:26 AM   
Aneirin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

More from the book:

quote:



As Islam is a comprehensive system of worship (Ibadah) and legislation (Shari’ah), the acceptance of secularism means abandonment of Shari’ah, a denial of the divine guidance and a rejection of Allah’s injunctions. It is indeed a false claim that Shari’ah is not proper to the requirements of the present age. The acceptance of a legislation formulated by humans means a preference of the humans’ limited knowledge and experiences to the divine guidance: “Say! Do you know better than Allah?” (Qur’an, 2:140) For this reason, the call for secularism among Muslims is atheism and a rejection of Islam. Its acceptance as a basis for rule in place of Shari’ah is downright apostasy.



So moderates by definition cannot exist in a truly Islamic society.




What would anyone learn about the contemporary politics in the West from studying the Bible? Not an awful lot I daresay though perhaps you might find some useful background. I suspect it might be more rewarding to look at what the Islamic world actually is than dealing with the issues through abstractions from Islamic texts.

Indonesia, Malaysia and Turkey are all Islamic democracies. They aren't perfect democracies but which democracy is? (remember Florida, Jeb Bush ??) Turkey is a NATO member of long standing with (I think) US bases or facilities.

My experience is that people in the Islamic world experience the same difficulty understanding centuries of Western colonialism in their lands as some here seem to have understanding contemporary Arab/Muslim world. Education, cultural exchange and dialogue, not xenophobia or Islamophobia is the answer.



In my experience also, I commed what Tweakabelle has written here.

This is also a large part of the reason why I attempt to defend the Muslims, they are simply not all what the media portrays them as, for we all notice and remember the radicals, but  never the majority who just want to get on with life just like us. Of course it is the same for them, they do not completely understand us, because of their media, and the stain left by colonial occupation, which my own country was largely to blame in that, and I am fully aware of what they did, fucked up Victorian mentality thrust upon another religion and another culture, the British Empire is the cross the English have to bear in many countries, for we can see what damage has been done to the culture.

I also further try to defend, because I am already actively engaged in cultural exchange and dialogue.


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RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/10/2011 3:24:05 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

So moderates by definition cannot exist in a truly Islamic society.



Thats so far from the truth in my experience, do you think all Christians adhere to the words in the Bible ?

Maybe I am lucky having spent most of my life in a cosmopolitan society but I have encountered very few militant Muslims. Most just want to get on wiith life, just the same as we do. I am wondering if you have ever sat and had a conversation with any Muslims. Somehow I doubt it.

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RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/10/2011 4:10:57 AM   
Aneirin


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Status: offline 		But what is an Islamic society, h'mm, the UAE is an Islamic country, but look at Dubay, Abu Dhabi, Sharja and various other Emirates, Oman,  Egypt is larely an Islamic society, but again, look at Cairo, Alexandria, Eilat, same again goes for Tunisia, Morroco, Algeria, Turkey all places that are largely Islamic, now are they extreme or in fact moderate ?

The correct moderate societies can exist, because they do, not just for the pleasure of the tourist, but because Muslims, well, like Christians, they are not all the same, people have different approaches to their faith, just like in the west.

But one thing that tends to fire up religious zeal and extremism, is oppression and poverty, for without a doubt, where there is poverty, religion holds a high regard.


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RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/10/2011 6:20:37 AM   
Sanity


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You live in an Islamic society now? When did you move to Iran?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

So moderates by definition cannot exist in a truly Islamic society.



Thats so far from the truth in my experience, do you think all Christians adhere to the words in the Bible ?

Maybe I am lucky having spent most of my life in a cosmopolitan society but I have encountered very few militant Muslims. Most just want to get on wiith life, just the same as we do. I am wondering if you have ever sat and had a conversation with any Muslims. Somehow I doubt it.


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RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/10/2011 6:29:58 AM   
Sanity


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You believe that the radical Islamic revolution will stop in Egypt, Iran, Tunisia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sudan, the Philippines, Iraq, Algeria, Libya, Yeman, Somalia and Jordan then? It seems to be the case that the radicals are constantly agitating in the name of  Allah. According to the Obama administration, radical Islamic elements are even recruiting here in the U.S., and weve seen that it only takes a few.

Remember, nineteen killed over three thousand.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

But what is an Islamic society, h'mm, the UAE is an Islamic country, but look at Dubay, Abu Dhabi, Sharja and various other Emirates, Oman,  Egypt is larely an Islamic society, but again, look at Cairo, Alexandria, Eilat, same again goes for Tunisia, Morroco, Algeria, Turkey all places that are largely Islamic, now are they extreme or in fact moderate ?

The correct moderate societies can exist, because they do, not just for the pleasure of the tourist, but because Muslims, well, like Christians, they are not all the same, people have different approaches to their faith, just like in the west.

But one thing that tends to fire up religious zeal and extremism, is oppression and poverty, for without a doubt, where there is poverty, religion holds a high regard.



< Message edited by Sanity -- 2/10/2011 6:30:39 AM >

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RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/10/2011 6:48:32 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


You believe that the radical Islamic revolution will stop in Egypt....


You have not given any evidence that it is an Islamic revolution while there is plenty of evidence to point to the opposite.

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RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/10/2011 6:59:29 AM   
Sanity


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Usually I ignore you, dont even read your posts, and heres a classic example of why. Though I made it the centerpiece of my OP you remain ignorant of the book Jihad is the Way and all the other evidence cited in contemporary news broadcasts and articles as well as other discussions. In other words, I just dont have the time to try to argue with fools.


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


You believe that the radical Islamic revolution will stop in Egypt....


You have not given any evidence that it is an Islamic revolution while there is plenty of evidence to point to the opposite.



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RE: What is the Muslim Brotherhood - 2/10/2011 7:16:58 AM   
rulemylife


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Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Usually I ignore you, dont even read your posts, and heres a classic example of why. Though I made it the centerpiece of my OP you remain ignorant of the book Jihad is the Way and all the other evidence cited in contemporary news broadcasts and articles as well as other discussions. In other words, I just dont have the time to try to argue with fools.


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


You believe that the radical Islamic revolution will stop in Egypt....


You have not given any evidence that it is an Islamic revolution while there is plenty of evidence to point to the opposite.




And I was trying to be nice to you after your long vacation.

But let's look at the facts that you constantly ignore in your rabid hatred of anything that is foreign to Idaho.

This is a secular uprising.  The protesters want democracy.  Something I would think you and the fine folks at Fox would be supporting.

Instead you are parroting the bullshit on Fox News that this is somehow an Islamist revolution when the only evidence you have offered is a link to a book.

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