RE: Control: what, how, why?

RE: Control: what, how, why? (Full Version)

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LillyBoPeep -> RE: Control: what, how, why? (3/14/2011 10:52:16 PM)
i don't have any super intellectual answers either. =p i think it's one of those things that kind of escapes words. thanks for chiming in; have to agree with you here: quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 I like the objectification, the loss of control, the unleashing of primal urges, the intensity of it all. being under the thumb is pretty hot, and i don't really know why, so i guess i'm just looking for conversations and perspectives. =p it's interesting because even non-sexual control can become sexual in that it -- responding to a man who wants/needs control -- can be a pretty big turn on.

stellauk -> RE: Control: what, how, why? (3/15/2011 3:27:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep Why do you want to control/want to be controlled? There's a Polish proverb which translates as 'Sometimes in life you're the pigeon, and sometimes the statue.' It's about power. Power is a bit like money. There's no point in having it if you can't make use of it or simply let it go. It's about the power that comes and goes in the energy flows between people. Thing is, when I submit to a Dominant, who is in control? To me the answer to that question depends on which aspect of the interaction you're looking at, and at what stage of the interaction. The Dominant is the decision maker, and thus has power and control, but then again I have a choice over how I respond to that decision, and so too I have power and control. And so it goes back and forth in cycles and and stages. quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep What does it add to your life? Understanding, awareness, knowledge, it teaches me about a person and through each interaction about myself, and also provides experience through different activities, emotions, feelings and thoughts. Living is all about relationships I feel. quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep How do you express/feel control? It varies from interaction to interaction. Everything here is pretty much based on a rejection on a continuous flow of equality when sharing intimacy in a relationship. It depends on where I find myself in the interaction and relationship and whether power needs to be regained, passed on, held or relinquished. In a dominant role I express control through decision making, leadership, inspiration, guidance, and in a submissive role I express control through service, empowerment, fulfillment of needs and wants, and through instigating the process from decision to achievement of objective. Note that I have expressed control on both sides of the kneel, but it is also important to understand that I am also being controlled. In the submissive role I am submitting to the structure and direction of the interaction as decided by the Dominant, and in the Dominant role I am ceding control to the submissive so they can make their own decision on how to respond to my decision and how best they are going to achieve the consequence of that decision.

Arpig -> RE: Control: what, how, why? (3/15/2011 5:41:47 AM)
I don't. I get no particular thrill from controlling somebody outside of a sexual context. I want things my way mostly because I am set in my ways and don't want to change. In a sexual context, even then its not so much the control, as the knowledge that I can do whatever I want. For me bondage is about the aesthetics of it...they look so pretty all tied up and helpless. I guess my thrill is more predatory than controlling. In day to day life I don't want to be bothered with controlling things...she has her area of responsibility, and I have mine.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Control: what, how, why? (3/15/2011 9:02:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stellauk It's about the power that comes and goes in the energy flows between people. i can agree with you there. the charge of energy is really important to keeping things alive, in whatever dynamic. quote: ORIGINAL: stellauk Thing is, when I submit to a Dominant, who is in control? To me the answer to that question depends on which aspect of the interaction you're looking at, and at what stage of the interaction. The Dominant is the decision maker, and thus has power and control, but then again I have a choice over how I respond to that decision, and so too I have power and control. And so it goes back and forth in cycles and and stages. agreed again, it's all cyclical, it's give-and-take. each party has to actively work towards the relationship in order to keep it going, or they can each actively work towards some divergent goal and end it. giving up authority works when you actively give it up and obey. there was a conversation on FL about the "ultimate control" resting with the s-type, but i disagree, because if the s wants to act on that, s/he can also be left in the dust by a D who doesn't want that kind of relationship. likewise, it doesn't work so well if you're into giving up control, but your partner doesn't want to take it. i think that happens fairly often. i think sometimes also, some people like the "idea" of control, but an actual "no, you may not," is very offputting to them because it doesn't play into the idea of how it "should" work in their heads. i enjoy when i feel compelled to obey, like there is no other choice at the end of the day. it's very freeing and comforting. quote: ORIGINAL: stellauk Understanding, awareness, knowledge, it teaches me about a person and through each interaction about myself, and also provides experience through different activities, emotions, feelings and thoughts. Living is all about relationships I feel. agreed! ^_^ quote: ORIGINAL: stellauk Note that I have expressed control on both sides of the kneel, but it is also important to understand that I am also being controlled. In the submissive role I am submitting to the structure and direction of the interaction as decided by the Dominant, and in the Dominant role I am ceding control to the submissive so they can make their own decision on how to respond to my decision and how best they are going to achieve the consequence of that decision. that's a very good point and an interesting perspective, stella -- definitely something to think about. the responsibility for the outcome of some order/task is often on the s and if s/he slacks off, it might not come out right. so in that sense the s has control of that outcome. if the s chooses to actively disobey, or to work with a different standard than the D was aiming for, that's an act of exercising control of something. obedience is an active choice, and the responsibility of the s.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Control: what, how, why? (3/15/2011 9:14:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig I don't. I get no particular thrill from controlling somebody outside of a sexual context. I want things my way mostly because I am set in my ways and don't want to change. In a sexual context, even then its not so much the control, as the knowledge that I can do whatever I want. For me bondage is about the aesthetics of it...they look so pretty all tied up and helpless. I guess my thrill is more predatory than controlling. In day to day life I don't want to be bothered with controlling things...she has her area of responsibility, and I have mine. that's interesting. predator/prey dynamics are very energetic, definitely something to explore. =) this is kinda how my last relationship was. if he gave me something to do, he trusted that i would do it to his standards. he wasn't a micromanaging type. he didn't control things to the nth degree, but he had areas where he wanted things done explicitly his way. i don't think control and power are necessarily the same thing, so even in the sense that he didn't control everything in complete detail, his power in the relationship was still what it was. part of the way control began to come into play was that i found myself thinking "how would he want this done?" or "would he be proud of how i've done this?" even if he wasn't there and hadn't given an opinion on it. =p bondage (particularly rope) is yumminess. it can be about control, too -- helplessness is felt when someone else has control of something and you don't.

Arpig -> RE: Control: what, how, why? (3/15/2011 9:25:52 AM)
quote: he didn't control things to the nth degree, but he had areas where he wanted things done explicitly his way. I'm not like that, I don't really care how its done, as long as its done. I imagine in many ways I would be a sub's nightmare because I am not particular. Yeah I like my beer cold, but if its not, that's fine as well...I'm not going to be upset about it. How would I want it done? However the hell you want to do it would be fine by me. I don't really expect a girl to do things in order to please me, I expect her to do them because its her job to, that's her role in the relationship. I know this sounds all very cold and impersonal, but it isn't really...its just that this aspect of things isn't important to me.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Control: what, how, why? (3/15/2011 9:29:52 AM)
ahhhh okay i see what you're saying. that makes sense, too. it really doesn't sound cold and impersonal -- honestly, the "it's your job" line of reasoning is familiar and very to-the-point. if you sign on to do X, then do X. for me, it's half "this is your job," and half "to make him happy." i have enough of my own wants and such, but a big part of it for me is whatever makes the other person happy. as far as nightmares go, you might only be a nightmare to someone who has a very specific idea of what "service" looks like. some people are pretty attached to their own ideas of service.

sirssubk2008 -> RE: Control: what, how, why? (3/15/2011 9:44:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: he didn't control things to the nth degree, but he had areas where he wanted things done explicitly his way. I'm not like that, I don't really care how its done, as long as its done. I imagine in many ways I would be a sub's nightmare because I am not particular. Yeah I like my beer cold, but if its not, that's fine as well...I'm not going to be upset about it. How would I want it done? However the hell you want to do it would be fine by me. I don't really expect a girl to do things in order to please me, I expect her to do them because its her job to, that's her role in the relationship. I know this sounds all very cold and impersonal, but it isn't really...its just that this aspect of things isn't important to me. A nightmare? I doubt it, at least not to all subs. For me, it makes more sense for a Dom to have the opinion that you have. With just about everything there are more than one way to do things. Some people can do it one way and get it done, while others can't use that method for whatever reason. I think that this sometimes sets a person up for failure, and I have heard of some Doms that do it that way on purpose. Definitely not my kind of Dom. Cold and impersonal? Nope! Direct and to the point? Yeppie! [:D]

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Control: what, how, why? (3/15/2011 9:50:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirssubk2008 Some people can do it one way and get it done, while others can't use that method for whatever reason. I think that this sometimes sets a person up for failure, and I have heard of some Doms that do it that way on purpose. that's a very good point. ^_^ i think sometimes reality causes a need for some flexibility in the "how." some people can't understand that and constantly set someone up for failure by giving an order that can't be carried out in a particular way.

agirl -> RE: Control: what, how, why? (3/15/2011 9:57:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep Are you pro-micromanagement, or not? Do you have systems of permissions and allowances? For those on the receiving end, how do you feel about it? for those who exert it, do you feel like it's something you need to be able to do in your relationships? i know sometimes people shy away from the word "need" because they think it makes them pathological or something, but i don't think there's anything really wrong with it. I'm pro everything about the way our relationship is run...which includes micromanagement at times. Yes there are all sorts of things I must have permission to have or do but they aren't needless or just because I said so things. They are there for a practical purpose. How does it feel? Hmmm, sometimes it's annoying and frustrating but then most control feels that way to me. My natural default is to do what I want and to please myself. As for how it might feel for M....It's more that he needs to have the right to do whatever needs to be done to do it properly. If he's leading this relationship then if he decides that some particular circumstance needs to be subjected to a dose of fine scrutiny and control, then he MUST be able to implement it. For us....He must be able to run things the way he thinks is best and I must follow that....because this is what works. That said, it's a tool that's at his disposal when it's needed and it's proved jolly useful at times but it's by no means used for the sake of it. agirl

sirssubk2008 -> RE: Control: what, how, why? (3/15/2011 10:05:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep that's a very good point. ^_^ i think sometimes reality causes a need for some flexibility in the "how." some people can't understand that and constantly set someone up for failure by giving an order that can't be carried out in a particular way. Sometimes it isn't a lack of understanding, but a purposeful ignoring of the ability of others. Of course this isn't reserved just for Doms. There are those bosses out there that do the same thing to people, which given today's economy, is just plain rotten!

agirl -> RE: Control: what, how, why? (3/15/2011 11:00:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep quote: ORIGINAL: sirssubk2008 Some people can do it one way and get it done, while others can't use that method for whatever reason. I think that this sometimes sets a person up for failure, and I have heard of some Doms that do it that way on purpose. that's a very good point. ^_^ i think sometimes reality causes a need for some flexibility in the "how." some people can't understand that and constantly set someone up for failure by giving an order that can't be carried out in a particular way. This ultimately depends on how you relate to each other, your understanding of each other lives and what you BOTH want. If M asks for something to be done a certain way, he jolly well wants it done a certain way. If he just wants the result, then that's clear too. Either way, the time for me to speak up is when he's talking to me, there and then. If life gets in the way of something he wanted me to do specifically, he'd have to be a bit of a moron to get his knickers in a twist over it. If you're being set up to fail constantly, it's partly on your own head. The other side of the coin is having someone that never quite manages to do what you ask. It's not always that they can't but they don't really want to. There's plenty of that around too. agirl

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Control: what, how, why? (3/15/2011 11:13:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl It's more that he needs to have the right to do whatever needs to be done to do it properly. If he's leading this relationship then if he decides that some particular circumstance needs to be subjected to a dose of fine scrutiny and control, then he MUST be able to implement it. For us....He must be able to run things the way he thinks is best and I must follow that....because this is what works. That said, it's a tool that's at his disposal when it's needed great points, agirl -- thanks for chiming in ^_^ i can agree with you there, definitely. for some it's about knowing that the right is there. quote: ORIGINAL: agirl If M asks for something to be done a certain way, he jolly well wants it done a certain way. If he just wants the result, then that's clear too. Either way, the time for me to speak up is when he's talking to me, there and then. *The other side of the coin is having someone that never quite* manages to do what you ask. It's not always that they can't but they don't really want to. There's plenty of that around too.** that's interesting too -- i think sometimes people have a lot of dissonance in their own heads about what they want. they "want" to obey, but run into constant situations where they never can. so you have to wonder if the motivation is really there, or what's causing the lack of lineup between desire and action. for some, deep down, there is an "i don't want to" that comes out in varieties of what seems like innocent failure, when it isn't really.

needlesandpins -> RE: Control: what, how, why? (3/15/2011 11:52:41 AM)
i'm not sure i even know what i am. at one time i would have said domme because of the relationship i was in. however, my fantacies were anything but but there was no way i could give myself over to that person in the way i wanted to. i trusted that person fully with everything in my life except that. what i actually like doing was causing pain and the power i felt while i did that. now, i have someone who i have given myself to to do as he wishes with me (within the bounds that we both work, although those bounds can be pushed)and it is totally exhilarating to be in that position. i give myself to be totally used. however, i do still feel an eliment of control then too. he has also given himself for my use and so in that sence you could lable us as switch. but we have both said that within our play there are times when one is in 'control' and yet can feel to be in the submissive role for moments. we both agree that we are general perverted kinksters who enjoy the feeling of being captive or captor within any given second. needles

LadyPact -> RE: Control: what, how, why? (3/15/2011 12:22:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep Are you pro-micromanagement, or not? I'm pro for the people that it works for them in their dynamic and against it when it doesn't. People tend to think that high protocol automatically equates with micro-management. That's not really the case. For us, clip knows what he is expected to do. I don't have to stand over him to see that it's accomplished. quote: Do you have systems of permissions and allowances? Yes, we do. Sometimes the answer is yes and other times it is no. Some of that depends on the circumstances revolving around what he is asking. quote: Some Ds/Ms prefer to be very involved in what the s does and when/where/how/why, from things like who s/he goes to see and when, what s/he eats, etc. For others, they'd just rather give you a gist ofr an order, and let you figure the rest out. Yes, but even if you take the control aspect out of the picture, can't this also just be called being a part of somebody's life? I can't say that I fall into the category of giving a gist of an order. There are some things that I do not control, such as the raising of his children. I'll offer opinions but not commands. The areas where I do have authority, it's a given that those are commands. quote: for those who exert it, do you feel like it's something you need to be able to do in your relationships? i know sometimes people shy away from the word "need" because they think it makes them pathological or something, but i don't think there's anything really wrong with it. This is the part where I often feel that I am the odd person out. No, I don't need it. My marriage doesn't have any power, control, or authority elements to it. It's something that I want so that's why I have a dynamic in addition.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Control: what, how, why? (3/15/2011 12:39:45 PM)
i don't think you're an odd person out; i've seen people say that it's something they "need" but plenty of others say they can take it or leave it; it's a want. but sometimes when people say "need," others treat them like they're pathological or otherwise bananas. =p i don't think it's always that extreme quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I'm pro for the people that it works for them in their dynamic and against it when it doesn't. People tend to think that high protocol automatically equates with micro-management. That's not really the case. i guess i should've specified and said that i only mean like in terms of your own relationship. i'm not expecting people to comment on the worth of something overall. i'm starting to sort out the nuances of protocol -- we don't have a lot of high protocol people here, so the only opinion you really get on it is "eh, some people like it but not for me." if you want to explore an idea, there isn't anywhere to really go TO explore that idea. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Yes, but even if you take the control aspect out of the picture, can't this also just be called being a part of somebody's life? you're right in a way, but for some it is explicitly about exercising control. telling someone what to eat, or explicitly stating that they must ask permission before doing X, Y, or Z. for some, a really high level of control is what they want, and for others, they couldn't care less, as long as whatever needs to be done is done. i'm nosy; just scouring people's opinions.

DesFIP -> RE: Control: what, how, why? (3/15/2011 5:44:15 PM)
It makes me feel safer and calmer to know things, and I, are in his very capable hands.

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